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Elder Scrolls Why Morrowind is a bad RPG

Discussion in 'Bethesda Game Studios' started by Sigourn, Apr 9, 2019.

  1. Butter Arcane

    Butter
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    You go through trials to prove that you're Nerevarine.
     
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  2. rusty_shackleford Arcane

    rusty_shackleford
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    You are Nerevar, you become the Nerevarine.
    This refers to the failed incarnations. Note they are failed, not false. There are also false incarnations e.g., Elvil Vidron.

    And Azura specifically states that you are Nerevar after you pick up the ring.
    Incarnation and mantling are very different things, you do not mantle Nerevar.
     
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  3. MWaser Savant

    MWaser
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    With the way Azura is, it's impossible to actually tell for sure. It's entirely possible that you were, in fact, already born as Nerevar's incarnation, or that you were not actually any more significant than a person who fits the basis of the prophecy. Azura is prone to deception and opportunism to achieve her goals, in spite of the outwardly purely good and benign presentation.
    Moon-and-Star itself was blessed by Azura so the enchantment's doing is entirely up to her - if she wanted you to be her Nerevarine to bring final punishment to the tribunal, it didn't really matter if you really were a reincarnated Nerevar or not. The enchantment would kill anyone that SHE did not deem to be Nerevar, since it was her enchantment.
    The biggest actual clue as to the main character's special birth right and powers would probably be the fact that you survive Corprus, learning afterwards that every other experiment subject with Divyath Fyr's potion didn't survive the experiment, leaning the explanation towards you being "cured" of it not by Fyr strictly, but by your own unique birth power.

    Even then, the lore behind being the "chosen one" in this case strikes better than most stories involving it, considering tehre were multiple other "chosen ones" before you that fail. They were not false, and presumably they were also all Nerevar and could wear the ring if that were the case. The prophecy was only truly fulfilled when the Nereverine took down the Heart, Dagoth Ur and the false gods.
     
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  4. Sykar Arcane

    Sykar
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    But that is the point. You could have been a failure too. Furthermore you can be of any sex, race and any origin hardly befitting the traditional idea of reincarnation. Also multiple "chosen ones" show that Azura just tried to chose one until someone finally managed to fulfill the prophecy, going basically by brute force. As to surviving corprus, so what? Could just as easily be random luck.
     
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  5. JarlFrank I like Thief THIS much Patron

    JarlFrank
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    And that's the beauty of Morrowind's storytelling. You don't know what's true. Even when you face Dagoth Ur and he asks you if you are truly Nerevar you get dialogue options that sound unsure, or straight up say you're just a servant of the Empire.

    It's all ambiguous. There are several forces at work here, all with their own motivations, and they may not be fully truthful towards you.
     
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  6. Jugashvili 管官的官 Patron

    Jugashvili
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    Codex 2013
    This is an excellent storytelling device, and I believe it was Ken Rolston's contribution. In Dune, for instance, we are left wondering if the Fremen prophecies about the Lisan Al-Gaib were actually true, or if Paul was merely playing to a fake prophecy planted by Bene Gesserit missionaries; this adds drama to the moment when he decides to drink the Water of Life, a process in which he nearly dies and is reborn as the Kwisatz Haderach. This mirrors the ambiguity created by the involvement of imperial spies, a vengeful goddess, Ashlander superstition and even the plans cryptically laid out by Vivec in his 36 lessons, working towards the moment in which the hero dons the fatal ring Moon-and-Star in the World Navel, the Cavern of the Incarnate, to be reborn as Nerevar.
     
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  7. Sigourn Arcane

    Sigourn
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    To draw a football comparison many a Codexer will probably not get: many Argentine players were referred to as the "new Maradona" in the past when they started out. But as time went on, they proved to be flukes. Meanwhile, Messi is the only one who actually lived up to it.
    Likewise, in Morrowind many people have been "reincarnated Nerevar" until they failled. The Nerevarine isn't necessarily Nerevar reincarnate, just the only one who lived up to Nerevar's legend (united the tribes, united the Houses, etc.).

    IMO Morrowind is one of the few western RPGs I've played with a genuinely great story, and funnily enough, there's hardly any "choice and consequence" in its development. Either you fail the main quest, take the backpath, or do it as intended. A stark contrast from something like New Vegas', which never really kept my attention. And that's because Morrowind's main quest has a build-up and a payoff. No such thing in New Vegas: once you join a faction you receive a random list of tasks that bear little connection with each other (and only serve a greater goal, which is to strengthen a given faction).

    I'd certainly prefer it over endless leveling up and trivializing every encounter, to be honest. There's far too much content in Morrowind to experience compared to the overall difficulty. There comes a point where you have done 50% of the content there is to do in the game, and your level is sky high.
     
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  8. Sykar Arcane

    Sykar
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    I fear well done ambiguity is a lost art in terms of story telling these days. Almost all games now are really on the nose with what is meant leaving little room for speculation and your own imagination.
     
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  9. Overboard Arcane

    Overboard
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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    One of these things is not like the other...
     
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  10. Sigourn Arcane

    Sigourn
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    I did expect this comment, but I was purely talking about their skills as players.
    Plus Messi was no fluke: he is 33 and he's still amazing.
     
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  11. Overboard Arcane

    Overboard
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    He may be no fluke, but he ain't no Maradona.
     
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  12. Sigourn Arcane

    Sigourn
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    Disagree, but that's beyond this thread.
     
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  13. Stendhal Literate

    Stendhal
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    Lore doesn't say that you are overpowered. Only that you are a reincarnation of a great hero and that Azura herself has some interest in doing in the Triumvirate for taking the piss out of her. Either way it is no justification for poor design choices.
    Very much this. The way TES works with it's strange paralel timelines could have you both as the underpowered and overpowered Nerevarine; also both the Nerevarine that died and failed and the one that succeeded. Of all the Nerevarines, vast majority died and that is entirely through the agency of PC.
     
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  14. Stendhal Literate

    Stendhal
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    Also; who the fuck cares if lore says "ur mary sue, tis fine", it doesn't make it less boring.
     
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  15. rusty_shackleford Arcane

    rusty_shackleford
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    Dagoth Ur also specifically refers to you as Nerevar
    Now you might point out Dagoth Ur's question to you when you encounter him
    But if you look at all four answers, none of them contradict each other.
    There is no way to state to Dagoth Ur that you are not Nerevar.


    You can argue whether it's ambiguous, sure. I do not see an argument for you not being Nerevar but many convincing arguments for you definitely being Nerevar: Azura, Almalexia, Dagoth Ur, the ring, Vivec's lessons, ...
     
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  16. rusty_shackleford Arcane

    rusty_shackleford
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    Because it's a game about the Godkiller killing gods.
    If you want to play a game where you're a random schmuck, Morrowind is not it. The denial of you being Nerevar incarnate seems to stem from people refusing to accept the premise of the game itself.
     
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  17. Flying Dutchman Educated

    Flying Dutchman
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    While the OP is a 4 year old post whose headline I would disagree with at first reaction, the point about factions/builds is a good one.
     
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  18. Sykar Arcane

    Sykar
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    You can join the mage guild without knowing a single spell. Skyrim is a complete joke.
     
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  19. Stendhal Literate

    Stendhal
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    Game says you're an OP god = shit design choices are actually good.
    And I disagree with your premise.
     
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  20. rusty_shackleford Arcane

    rusty_shackleford
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    Yes, I know that's the entire argument against me. "I dislike it therefore UR RONG"
     
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  21. Stendhal Literate

    Stendhal
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    No, you smug retard, your whole argument why Morrowind can't do no wrong is because internal lore says you're a reincarnation of an ancient Dunmer hero and you are working at the behest of Azura, ergo you're Mary Sue and can lead 7 guilds and destroy the entire Mundus and there is no fault at all in the design whatsoever. Even though there is nothing in lore saying you're particularly special besides being the true reincarnation, thus being able to go through the trials, which, by the way include you being able to be "cured" of Corpus and not dying upon wearing a ring. Even to destroy to the Heart of Lorkhan you still need some powerful toys and you're not necessarily killing any gods. Arguably none of the Tribunal are true Gods and if you had paid any attention, you'd also realize that they are significantly diminished and slowly losing their divinity as they can't reach the Heart of Lorkhan. ALSO: I never played the expansion, but you can go through the game without killing Vivec. Lorewise Vivec doesn't die from Nerevarine, he leaves after the destruction of Dagoth Ur IIRC.
     
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  22. Zed Duke of Banville Zo Kath Ra Patron

    Zed Duke of Banville
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    Morrowind was never intended to have half, or even a third, of its entire content completed in a single playthrough, but unfortunately has become the recipient of unfounded criticism from a few Codexers who seem to think that an RPG must force them to stop playing (or to continue with the main quest rather than explore further side content), thereby deluding themselves into claiming they have discovered a flaw in the game when the fault lies in themselves. Rather than complain about being overleveled and overpowered, they should have completed the main quest with their first character and then started a second (and eventually third) playthrough. :M
     
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  23. Stendhal Literate

    Stendhal
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    There isn't much replay value to the game. That is why.
    What do you do? Replay the same main quest that has no different endings or paths? Only notable change is to whack Vivec, get told I am fucked by the game itself and that I need to reload, and then go to the last Dwemer to finish the game. Which has no real bearing on the game, but I do appreciate that this was put in. If you played as a pure wizard do you replay as a warrior? Combat is so shit it is still going to be a massive slog and the same repetitive mess it was before. Thief? Stealth is too broken and doesn't work in any sense that isn't pure abstraction. Quests? Almost all have the same linear solutions i.e. fighter flavour fetch quest vs mage flavour fetch quest ( functionally and gameplay wise the same ). LARP? Explore some pretty generic cave n.29? I have tried so many times to replay and I always give up on reaching level 5 and realizing I am doing the same exact thing as I did before and there is nothing different besides superficial changes. And I am the type to not give a shit about powerplaying and meta strategy.
     
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  24. rusty_shackleford Arcane

    rusty_shackleford
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    Why don't you retards just go play a game with a simpler story that's easier to understand like Gothic?
     
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  25. luj1 You're all shills

    luj1
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    Morrowind had educated people on board, Rolston wrote SF, Kirkbride studied art and comparative religion in college (back when video game design degrees didn't exist). Best creative duo Bethesda ever had.
     
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