Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Elder Scrolls Why Morrowind is a bad RPG

ind33d

Learned
Joined
Jun 23, 2020
Messages
1,809
I don't think Morrowind is a bad RPG, I've played Daggerfall, but I liked exploring Morrowind better.

Daggerfall has better dungeon design, but we can't judge a game by its dungeon design unless it's a game like Wizardry
Daggerfall and Morrowind are not even the same genre. Daggerfall feels like a legitimate simulation of a medieval world. Morrowind is for storyshitters. I love both, but they really aren't similar at all
 

dreughjiggers

Maidenhaver
Joined
Dec 26, 2022
Messages
261
Location
Vvardenfell
Improve the Morrowind UI? For what? Consoles?
Morrowind already has one of the best PC games UI I've ever seen
openmw has improved search and sorting, and the ability to drop shit on the ground, behind the menu. Quest topics are highlighted blue, then greyed after. Its just qol for an otherwise great UI.

Don't worry bros, AI will fix everything.
image.png
"AI" is merely homogenizing the most common thoughts of your average modern gamer with shit opinions, and doesn't even explain how it should be done. It couldn't even say outright that Morrowind needs quest markers or something. It only gives ambiguous platitudes as solutions. It sounds like me writing a bullshit resume in the 5'th grade. "Morrowind could be improved by....improving things!". lol....
Correct. I was at a bar last night, and one of the tvs had ABC interviewing chat123. It was the most retarded skit I'd heard in a long time. The ceo told the tv he was scared of the technology's potential (fucking LOL), "if this technolergy fell into the rong hands," then the reporter barked "China. Russia. China. Putin," something about "muh jerbs," future blah blah blah, web nazis from planet incel. What a shitty bar, that was. But what's really sad isn't my terminal loneliness, but the chatbot was gimped to be inoffensive and mediocre, so no matter how "smart" it is, it'll never approximate a thoughtful opinion. Its just an over-educated idiot.
 

undecaf

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jun 4, 2010
Messages
3,517
Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2
Fallout: New Vegas is my definition of a diamond in the rough. I've always maintained that, had it used the original Fallout engine and given an adequate time for Obsidian to do the major things they planned (most important of which being "fleshing out the Legion") it would occupy the #1 spot as the best cRPG ever made.

I can't honestly say I've "replayed" New Vegas a lot, in the sense of "yeah I made it to the end of the game five times". In fact, I've never, ever, finished New Vegas. I always bail out just as the Hoover Dam battle is available. Why, I can't say. The title says "Morrowind" but I'm talking about New Vegas, so why is this the case? Because even though there's an initial hurdle to overcome in New Vegas (in my personal experience, if I can get past Novac I know I'll play the hell out of the game), in Morrowind I'm going through a constant initial hurdle. And I'll explain why, giving my honest opinion on Morrowind.

Morrowind is a game that, as opposed to what its RPG label and its "open world freedom!" would lead me to believe, is a game that gets more and more boring the more I play through it. There are many reasons as to why I find Morrowind boring, but there is one in particular that outright breaks the game for me. And that is quest design. Morrowind's quests can be divided in two:
  • Non-faction quests, which rarely demand something out of your build.
  • Faction quests, which are usually oriented towards your build.
We can see an immediate difference with New Vegas: whereas Morrowind's quests are separated between "incloosive" and "gatekeeping", New Vegas quests, most of the time, have specific skill checks to unlock different paths or rewards. But even Morrowind's faction quests are a lie:
  • Thieves Guild/Hlaalu: you can easily spam the Persuade or Taunt button to pass most of the quests oriented towards "smoothtalkers".
  • Mages Guild/Telvanni: very few quests actually demand your magic-oriented character to use their magic, if any.
  • Fighters Guild/Redoran: very few quests actually demand you to engage in opponents in physical combat, if any.
The one major exception are the stealth-oriented quests. Without high enough stealth, you will be relying on extreme chance to complete these quests. This is made even worse because of Morrowind's downright awful stealth mechanics. Whereas Skyrim's stealth is overpowered, leading everyone and their grandmother to play as stealth archers, Morrowind's are infamously bad, where trying to stealth your way around a quest without having previously honed your skills by cheesing Mudcrabs, Scribs, and feeble tavern patrons standing near a dimly lit candle, will have you raped, gently, by telepathic enemies. In fact, the stealth mechanics are SO bad that at low skills you simply can't hide at a reasonable distance from NPCs, but at high skills you can hide in front of the fucking NPCs.

The one aspect of Morrowind where skills truly come into play is your success chance to physically attack your enemies, your success chance to cast magicka, your success chance to brew potions, etc. Basically anything but quests (stealth quests, again, being the exception). This is a huge contrast with New Vegas' quest design: without the proper skills, you are locked out of certain paths or rewards. It is also a huge contrast with New Vegas' moment-to-moment gameplay, where your skills have a less noticeable impact because the game doesn't rely on dicerolls, instead augmenting your resistance and damage: it's easier to notice the growth from missing all the time to landing all your attacks than it is to notice "hey, I'm dealing 40 damage instead of 30 now!", especially when New Vegas doesn't display damage dealt with each attack.

Earlier I said Morrowind gets more and more boring the more I play through it. And that's because it lacks replayability as an RPG.
  • Most quests don't rely on your build, meaning you can effectively do them all.
  • The ones that are locked behind a certain build don't actually require that build at all. We love to mock Skyrim's "you can become the Archmage of Winterhold while knowing how to cast one single spell", but how is Morrowind's "the guild requires you to have certain stats but rarely expects you to cast spells?" any different? In fact, I've taken the time to browse Morrowind's Mages Guild quests: out of 33 quests distributed among the guilds, only ONE absolutely requires you to use magic, either scroll or spell (Soul of an Ash Ghoul), while another two require either spells or having a good sneak skill, with one of these two also being easily solved by picking up a key lying around. That's right: in Morrowind's Mages Guild quests, there are absolutely no quests that absolutely demand you to be a mage, because literally any character can use a spell scroll. The faction requirements are entirely arbitrary.
When your game's RPG elements ultimately boil down to your prowess in combat, and when said combat is arguably one of the worst combats RPGs have ever seen (and this is ultimately what will get users to agree with me or not), then you have a bad RPG in your hands. Morrowind's quests are a mostly linear affair, require no particular skills, and the ones which do require skills are either "fake" (e.g. faction questlines) or require cheesing (i.e. stealth quests).

Once more, let's go back to New Vegas' quests: skill checks are necessary because they ask what is needed. You need high Medicine skills because you are required to have Medicine skills in order for you to cure gravely injured Boomers. You require high Speech skills because you are required to have high Speech skills to convince a destruction-driven man to stop his rampage across the Mojave. New Vegas rarely pulls tricks on you in this regard; we can argue some skill checks are poorly assigned, but we can barely argue "the game demands a skill check when it has no reason to", as opposed to Morrowind's factions demanding requirements that are never asked to be put into use explicitly: play through the Mages Guild as a fighter, or play through the Redoran quests as a mage, the game doesn't give a shit. Did Bethesda truly dumb down Skyrim, or did they just accept that Morrowind's faction requirements were retarded because the quests weren't designed around those requirements in mind?

As much as I enjoyed writing modding guides for others to use, I have to come to terms Morrowind is the one RPG that may be a true "play once and be done with it", because every time I try to play it I either give up fairly early, or end up dropping the game because of boredom altogether.
Morrowind is a good RPG because inspite of its deficiencies in writing and quest design it pretty well plays like one; and better than anything after it in its own genre.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

Dungeon Master
Patron
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
13,140
Improve the Morrowind UI? For what? Consoles?
Morrowind already has one of the best PC games UI I've ever seen
Yes, Morrowind has one of the two truly innovative CRPG user interfaces ever created, with the other being the UI of Dungeon Master in 1987 which would eventually be widely copied by later CRPGs:

YYLI2T4.png
nnKgXKI.png

CS2YpJl.png
r0SBWJU.png


Not only did Dungeon Master in 1987 create the "paper doll" inventory screen, but for its main interface ringed the central first-person view with controls and info relating to each party member, the party members in relation to each other (and individual party member facing!), the magic system for spell-casting, weapons/items held by each character for immediate use, and directional movement --- all contained on one screen!


Morrowind in 2002 presented basic information at the bottom of its first-person (or optionally behind-the-shoulder) view but pressing the right mouse button would instantly pause the game and bring up four windowed menu screens, which could be resized and moved around as desired. The image below is from Mobygames, and the windows have been moved and resized from their defaults, but it demonstrates the separate menus for inventory, magic, the map, and character statistics.

26818-the-elder-scrolls-iii-morrowind-windows-screenshot-inventory.jpg
 

Harthwain

Magister
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
5,428
I had to laugh at "Adding more voice acting would bring the characters and world to life". Like voice acting could make the NPCs have schedules.
But voice acting does bring the characters to life. Just look at Dagoth Ur's AI voice. While written text is OK, a dialogue can really elevate the interaction, provided the voice acting is done well. The real obstacle here is the wikipedia-esque nature of dialogues for most NPCs (as they lack unique lines to make them stand out), not the idea of adding voice acting in general.
 

NecroLord

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck
Joined
Sep 6, 2022
Messages
14,936
I had to laugh at "Adding more voice acting would bring the characters and world to life". Like voice acting could make the NPCs have schedules.
But voice acting does bring the characters to life. Just look at Dagoth Ur's AI voice. While written text is OK, a dialogue can really elevate the interaction, provided the voice acting is done well. The real obstacle here is the wikipedia-esque nature of dialogues for most NPCs (as they lack unique lines to make them stand out), not the idea of adding voice acting in general.
"Come, Nerevar!"
The voice actor of Dagoth Ur (Jeff Baker) also voiced the imperials in the game.
Oh, the irony!
 

laclongquan

Arcane
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
1,870,184
Location
Searching for my kidnapped sister
Voice acting is really extraneous to the games~

Sure, if it's to the level of Bloodlines or FNV, then it's great. But how often do you meet a game of that level?

What voice acting do is to add a group of players going around asking mods if they have VA in their mods. It's not as if they play if the mods have (or have not). They just ask that stupid question~

As for Morrowind, I remember nothing about its quality of VA. Which mean it's not bad enough to be grating, and not good enough to be treasure~
 

octavius

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
19,702
Location
Bjørgvin
MW had good voice acting and it was used for greeting, introductions and combat taunts, no long monotonous monologues that you can read much quicker. A textbook example of how VA should be used in a computer game.
 

laclongquan

Arcane
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
1,870,184
Location
Searching for my kidnapped sister
Meh~ Noob, the lot of them

The biggest prayer anyone can make is "please gods, no free fast travel! NO FREE!"

Morrowind is a good game until player can learn Mark and Recall spell~
Don't worry bros, AI will fix everything.
image.png
Honestly, it's not wrong.
2, 3 and 4 are obvious improvements.

1 is true even if you like the RPG-style combat system of Daggerfall & Morrowind over Oblivion+ action combat system.
And I do!
But Morrowind combat suffers from a pretty severe lack of feedback in both graphics and text.

5 is a matter of interpretation.
For example, just offering a better UI for the quest management would already be "streamlining".
Doesn't mean you have add quest compass and magical GPS :lol:
 

Harthwain

Magister
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
5,428
As for Morrowind, I remember nothing about its quality of VA. Which mean it's not bad enough to be grating, and not good enough to be treasure~

MW had good voice acting and it was used for greeting, introductions and combat taunts [...]
This. There was character to these lines, despite how short they were, which made them distinct and memoriable for me.
 

Vic

Savant
Undisputed Queen of Faggotry Bethestard
Joined
Oct 24, 2018
Messages
5,760
Location
[REDACTED]
I thought Dagoth Ur’s line “What a fool you are, I'm a god! How can you kill a god? What a grand and intoxicating innocence!” was pretty cool
 

ferratilis

Arcane
Joined
Oct 23, 2019
Messages
2,906
While reading that comment, Dagothwave started playing in my mind. :-D

Totally agree that Morrowind doesn't need full voice acting. Of all RPGs, Baldur's Gate and Morrowind have struck a perfect balance between voiced and unvoiced lines. Enough to give characters personality, but not enough to make them annoying. Fallout 1 is up there as well, but that game went a step further by adding a memorable face to important characters. I will never forget that moment when Aradesh tells you "may the water you find during the day not glow at night." It adds so much to the character and the world. If the game had full voice acting, it wouldn't stick out as much.

Something like Gothic is more suitable for full voice acting, since writing is more sparse and utilitarian. I don't know the numbers, but I'm pretty sure Gothic has like a quarter of lines of Morrowind. And it elevates the experience.
 

Kalon

Scholar
Joined
Jan 21, 2016
Messages
191
Morrowind is a good game until player can learn Mark and Recall spell~

Just don't abuse it and you'll be fine (really, that particular sentence sums up pretty much everything one needs to know about Morrowind's gameplay). I use it only as an emergency personally. Of course if you cast Recall to the Creeper every time you finish a dungeons it gets boring quick.
 

NaturallyCarnivorousSheep

Albanian Deliberator Kang
Patron
Possibly Retarded
Joined
Sep 29, 2021
Messages
2,316
Location
EGT Tower 14th floor, Tirana
Morrowind in 2002 presented basic information at the bottom of its first-person (or optionally behind-the-shoulder) view but pressing the right mouse button would instantly pause the game and bring up four windowed menu screens, which could be resized and moved around as desired. The image below is from Mobygames, and the windows have been moved and resized from their defaults, but it demonstrates the separate menus for inventory, magic, the map, and character statistics.
I will contest the quality of it. The map is at times unreadable and a larger-scale one is literally useless, it doesn't even have roads marked on it iirc.
The inventory screen is just trash if you want to quickly check for instance what kind of potions you have with you(and not carrying your entire hoard isn't the worst idea), yes, you can figure it out by hovering over them, but there's no way to just take a glance at them to know it. Similar issues happen with for instance enchanted weapons - one of the strategy the game even recommends you in some variety dialogue is to carry a dagger with paralysis spell together with a more generally useful one, so you can hit the enemy with paralysis and then finish them with the other one to not waste paralysis charge. The problem of the potions repeats itself, without hovering over the icon the only way in which you can check which dagger you've equipped is by wielding it and looking at the colour of the glow(assuming your other dagger doesn't have some other illusion school spell on it, because then both will glow green). Yes it is a very specific detail but when you look at the opinions from the time it was brought up again and again.

Speaking of interface issues that were coming up over and over again, the journal I've actually liked but I've also played the game when I was like 12 and(later) 15 and could play the game 8 hours a day. Without this carelessness it's unlikely I'd be captured by it to the degree where I remembered all the quests etc. to an extent where I knew what to look for, so I completely understand why people complained.
 

laclongquan

Arcane
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
1,870,184
Location
Searching for my kidnapped sister
Morrowind is a good game until player can learn Mark and Recall spell~

Just don't abuse it and you'll be fine (really, that particular sentence sums up pretty much everything one needs to know about Morrowind's gameplay). I use it only as an emergency personally. Of course if you cast Recall to the Creeper every time you finish a dungeons it gets boring quick.
That statement is as useful as "just as long as you eat healthy food, exercise regularly, you will be able to live long."
...
..
.
Guess what? You wont. And in Morrowind, devs's introduction of Mark recall spell is a gamebreaking feature the beth team is famous for~
 

Kalon

Scholar
Joined
Jan 21, 2016
Messages
191
And in Morrowind, devs's introduction of Mark recall spell is a gamebreaking feature the beth team is famous for

Sorry, maybe we play the game a bit differently but I genuinely don't understand how Mark and Recall break the game (as in, make it too easy ?)
 

laclongquan

Arcane
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
1,870,184
Location
Searching for my kidnapped sister
Mark and Recall allow such powergaming tricks:
* mark your loot storage place, go elsewhere (like a shop), sell your loot, recall to the place for get more loot, go out to sell, repeat... this reduce the travelling in half. Your house full of loot? With this spell you can sell it easily. Your caves full of loot? With this spell you can transport ALL of them back to your house easily.

* mark your central place to start going out, go to shop to buy ingredients to make stuffs to sell, recall back to the hub, go to other shops to buy... this reduce the walking to shops in half and make crafting very easy to do. Alchemy is a gamebreaking skill is half way thanks to this spell.

It is a very powerful spell and very helpful to powergaming tricks~
 

Kalon

Scholar
Joined
Jan 21, 2016
Messages
191
Mark and Recall allow such powergaming tricks:
* mark your loot storage place, go elsewhere (like a shop), sell your loot, recall to the place for get more loot, go out to sell, repeat... this reduce the travelling in half. Your house full of loot? With this spell you can sell it easily. Your caves full of loot? With this spell you can transport ALL of them back to your house easily.

* mark your central place to start going out, go to shop to buy ingredients to make stuffs to sell, recall back to the hub, go to other shops to buy... this reduce the walking to shops in half and make crafting very easy to do. Alchemy is a gamebreaking skill is half way thanks to this spell.

It is a very powerful spell and very helpful to powergaming tricks~
Well I'm not a powergamer then. For me Recall is the last resort spell, when there's nothing else to do to get out of wharever crap you've adventuring into.
 

MWaser

Cipher
Joined
Nov 22, 2015
Messages
614
Location
Where you won't find me
Mark and Recall allow such powergaming tricks:
* mark your loot storage place, go elsewhere (like a shop), sell your loot, recall to the place for get more loot, go out to sell, repeat... this reduce the travelling in half. Your house full of loot? With this spell you can sell it easily. Your caves full of loot? With this spell you can transport ALL of them back to your house easily.

* mark your central place to start going out, go to shop to buy ingredients to make stuffs to sell, recall back to the hub, go to other shops to buy... this reduce the walking to shops in half and make crafting very easy to do. Alchemy is a gamebreaking skill is half way thanks to this spell.

It is a very powerful spell and very helpful to powergaming tricks~
Dude if you're going to complain about the game can you at least:
1. Learn grammar
2. Understand that you don't need mark and recall because you can just close and reopen merchant inventories for ingredients to restock immediately and make yourself +100000 intelligence and +10000 strength potion at a single merchant

Seriously, what's your obsession with those spells?
 

Seethe

Cipher
Joined
Nov 22, 2015
Messages
994
Mark and Recall allow such powergaming tricks:
* mark your loot storage place, go elsewhere (like a shop), sell your loot, recall to the place for get more loot, go out to sell, repeat... this reduce the travelling in half. Your house full of loot? With this spell you can sell it easily. Your caves full of loot? With this spell you can transport ALL of them back to your house easily.

* mark your central place to start going out, go to shop to buy ingredients to make stuffs to sell, recall back to the hub, go to other shops to buy... this reduce the walking to shops in half and make crafting very easy to do. Alchemy is a gamebreaking skill is half way thanks to this spell.

It is a very powerful spell and very helpful to powergaming tricks~
Dude if you're going to complain about the game can you at least:
1. Learn grammar
2. Understand that you don't need mark and recall because you can just close and reopen merchant inventories for ingredients to restock immediately and make yourself +100000 intelligence and +10000 strength potion at a single merchant

Seriously, what's your obsession with those spells?
Good job, now he won't be able to abstain from doing this now that he found out about it.
 

laclongquan

Arcane
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
1,870,184
Location
Searching for my kidnapped sister
I dont need no steenkeeng grammar~ Words, obey!

And what the fuck? The close open merchant inventory sound like a mod's work, not vanilla~ A cheap cheating mod, more like, not a proper gameplay mod. I dont need no steenkeeng cheateeeeeng mod either~
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom