Interview Why Morrowind sucked - the Douglas Goodall interview

[Twinfalls]

To be fair to Kirkbride, we don't know the content of his 'nice' requests to have the interview removed - ie we don't know his reasons for so strongly wanting it gone. My guess is the same as what someone else here suggested - it was a 'the inner workings of lore must never be exposed' thing - and I can understand how that can be sacrosanct to someone who wrote large amounts of the stuff.

Still, his PM where he turns into Bad RoboCop is pretty full-on.

 

[Fintilgin]

Although I think some of the stuff Mr. Goodall said was preaty cool, other stuff was just flat wrong.

I did think it was very interesting that he mentioned the Elder Scrolls having a lot in common with games like Rogue or Nethack. That's how I've always seen them. They both fall under the label 'CPRG', but t's a totally different style of game then the old Black Isle style of games.

I'd love Bethesda to keep pushing stuff in an 'alien' direction. Morrowind's weird world was a wonderful breath of fresh air for fantasy and I'm disapointed to see Oblivion going back to a more 'generic' euro-fantasy. Stuff like the Cyrodiil = 'Romans/High Middle ages Europe' is also a bit annoying after the joy of Vvardenfall's mushroom trees and giant bugs. I'd have rather seen them keep the lore in the pocket guide and have Cyrodiil be filled with jungles and rainforest and perhaps having the Imperials be more like a tropical Byzantium. You'd keep a sense of the 'Roman Empire' but with a weird eastern twist. (Byzantine Icon paintings of the Gods and Emperors and Orthodox art stylings would be cool blended in with a jungle/tropical vibe.)

On the other hand I think it would have been a HUGE mistake to try to make the game procedurely generated like Arena and Daggerfall. Making a fun procedural fantasy world that didn't feel too generic would be MUCH more work then making a world like Morrowind. Making it feel like a real world would be damn near impossible. A procedural gameworld is a neat idea, but I think it's far better suited to sand-box games like Will Wright's 'Spore', and not creating a realistic fantasy realm. Ironically, the nature of a procedural/random world is also far more suited for hack-and-slash and treasure hunting then investigating lore and interacting with realistic NPCs.

 

[Drakron]

Kirkbride hasn't worked for Bethesda for about 5 years. I think he's on the West coast somewhere.

And that is curious since he say he "owns" what is The Elder Scrolls material as I serious doubt that Bethsoft is going to allow any employer the copywrite of their IP, if he written that during his time at Bethsoft for the game purpose then I think that belongs to Bethsoft and if he written that outside Bethsoft for his own purpose then its not TES lore (no developer is going to use that because of ... copywrite) ... just like Ed Greenwood notes are not FR lore.

Also I like him to see him going after the other copywrited material since Bethsoft would be the rightfull owner of that material.

 

[Proweler]

I'd have rather seen them keep the lore in the pocket guide and have Cyrodiil be filled with jungles and rainforest and perhaps having the Imperials be more like a tropical Byzantium. You'd keep a sense of the 'Roman Empire' but with a weird eastern twist. (Byzantine Icon paintings of the Gods and Emperors and Orthodox art stylings would be cool blended in with a jungle/tropical vibe.)

Agreed! The Empire from the PGE was better then the medival copy past.

(the PGE was also written by MK)

 

[Lumpy]

Kirkbride hasn't worked for Bethesda for about 5 years. I think he's on the West coast somewhere.

And that is curious since he say he "owns" what is The Elder Scrolls material as I serious doubt that Bethsoft is going to allow any employer the copywrite of their IP, if he written that during his time at Bethsoft for the game purpose then I think that belongs to Bethsoft and if he written that outside Bethsoft for his own purpose then its not TES lore (no developer is going to use that because of ... copywrite) ... just like Ed Greenwood notes are not FR lore.

Also I like him to see him going after the other copywrited material since Bethsoft would be the rightfull owner of that material.

He owns most of the stuff in here: http://til.gamingsource.net/obscure_text/ .
The official lore belongs to Bethesda.

 

[Kuato]

Making a fun procedural fantasy world that didn't feel too generic would be MUCH more work then making a world like Morrowind. Making it feel like a real world would be damn near impossible.

The real issue is Immersion vs. Simulation in crpgs because I think somewhere along the line they have been equated to be the same thing when they are actually qiute differen't.

A impressively simulated tree,rock or blade of grass is no replacement for highly immersive well designed gameplay.

basically whether or not a game looks generic or not is a moot point if the gameplay still sucks

:D

 

[bryce777]

The only valid rules for rpg plot development are:

1: The lvl 977 arch-druid-knight-wizard must never entrust the fate of the world to a lvl 1 character because everyone (including the level 9 bartender) is busy. However if he/she does do it, some comedy points are gained by having that character just stand in the same spot doing nothing until the game is completed.


2: Never-Ever-Ever make a reference to the computer the player is using. "Hello person with convenient amnesia. Press the 'L' key to find out about the exciting task I have for you." ack-barf-hack I feel dirty just typing it.

What's funnier is that in every single book after a certain point, raymond feist has pug doing something idiotic where he has to stay in the same room or soemthing. It is pretty hysterically funny. All his newer books are a joke.






Rules = formula = mindbogglingly mediocre game = bethesda

As for why he'd have it taken down, he is obviously an insane idiot, and I guess that there's just one more reason not to give those losers any money....

 

[obediah]

The real issue is Immersion vs. Simulation in crpgs because I think somewhere along the line they have been equated to be the same thing when they are actually qiute differen't.

A impressively simulated tree,rock or blade of grass is no replacement for highly immersive well designed gameplay.

basically whether or not a game looks generic or not is a moot point if the gameplay still sucks

:D

They aren't as orthogonal as you would like to make them.

Simulation is just faking something. It can be immersion oriented, like realistic soil erosion, or NPC schedules or radiant AI. It can be performance oriented like fudging an expensive calculation. Or it could just be misguided visual whoring disguised as immersion ( see lens flare, blooming, etc...).

Immersion is a goal that spans many if not all aspects of game design. Simulating a visual environment or realistic personality for an NPC affect immersoin, as does an attention-arresting plot, UI decisions, difficulty, background music, etc ...

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I did think it was very interesting that he mentioned the Elder Scrolls having a lot in common with games like Rogue or Nethack. That's how I've always seen them. They both fall under the label 'CPRG', but t's a totally different style of game then the old Black Isle style of games.

I personally think they need to move back towards the rogue elements of the earlier games, but that's just me.

 

[Sinder Velvin]

My guess is the same as what someone else here suggested - it was a 'the inner workings of lore must never be exposed' thing

No, he didn't care about the lore revelations.

He's just overprotective of Ken and Todd.

 

[Atrokkus]

Morrowind was a fine adventure game, but Bethesda failed completely in making an RPG out of it.

There was no roleplaying, no social aspect. Everything was basically make-believe: you pretend like you run the guild, you pretend like you have some deeper relationship with various notable npcs... but you don't. You just level up, kill badies, hoard items and explore the sandbox.

No social interaction whatsoever, and hence, not an RPG at all. I'd rather play GTA:SA, for that matter: practically the same shit, but at least it doesn't pretend to be an RPG.

 

[Twinfalls]

As for why he'd have it taken down, he is obviously an insane idiot, and I guess that there's just one more reason not to give those losers any money....

I disagree with this. For a start, it's good to hear that Bethesda the company had nothing to do with the interview being removed. There's no evidence that the company, or any of its staff - Ken or Todd in particular, made any such request. That is to their credit.

As this is all due to Kirkbride's own personal idiosyncracy, I can understand it a bit more. I mean come on - how many artists/writers in the past have been 'eccentric' and cranky? A ton. Not that I'm condoning his actions mind you - it's completely over the top and an act of bastardry to be sure.

 

[Micmu]

But he did them a great favor. Gotta love the convenience. And yes, there is no proof of anything which is the best part of it.

 

[Lumpy]

To be fair to Kirkbride, we don't know the content of his 'nice' requests to have the interview removed - ie we don't know his reasons for so strongly wanting it gone. My guess is the same as what someone else here suggested - it was a 'the inner workings of lore must never be exposed' thing - and I can understand how that can be sacrosanct to someone who wrote large amounts of the stuff.

Still, his PM where he turns into Bad RoboCop is pretty full-on.

At first, he just wanted the parts about Ken and Todd removed. Then, after he got annoyed, he decided that all of it should be removed. But he was annoyed about what Doug said about those two, and not about the info he revealed.

 

[Micmu]

He basically said that Todd loves action games more than RPGs which is no secret at all.

 

[Twinfalls]

Upon re-reading the full interview, what Kirkbride did was indefensible. There's no remotely personal attack against Rolston or Howard, there's just an ex-dev speaking honestly. Like everyone doesn't know Howard prefers games where you bash things with axes over games where you puzzle over ancient texts - the little fucker has said so himself!

I'd suggest VD or someone here make a permanent copy of the interview (the full text is in the gen rpg forum thanks to Fintilgin), and perhaps post up a link every now and then, on the front page or something.

What a nerve of the guy.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I disagree with this. For a start, it's good to hear that Bethesda the company had nothing to do with the interview being removed. There's no evidence that the company, or any of its staff - Ken or Todd in particular, made any such request. That is to their credit.

http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/inde ... 201585&hl=

 

[Claw]

But he did them a great favor. Gotta love the convenience. And yes, there is no proof of anything which is the best part of it.

He sure did. Now the interview is finally getting the attention it deserves. :D

 

[Micmu]

http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=201585&hl=

"Linking to another forum that allows Potty Language to run rampant, isn't a good idea. "
That's awesome! Especially because they allow linking to RPG Codex when MSFD releases some info about OB.

 

[Twinfalls]

I disagree with this. For a start, it's good to hear that Bethesda the company had nothing to do with the interview being removed. There's no evidence that the company, or any of its staff - Ken or Todd in particular, made any such request. That is to their credit.

http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/inde ... 201585&hl=

The moderator's stated reason for removing it is:

Linking to another forum that allows Potty Language to run rampant, isn't a good idea

What the fuck is that shit?

Edit: duh - I'm a bit slow tonite. I think I might just post the full text itself on that board and see what happens.

Edit 2: I really have too much time on my hands.

http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/inde ... pic=201890

 

[Mefi]

What a wanker to try that puppyshit. Anywhere I can post my hearty disdain for his style where he is likely to see it?

 

[Micmu]

Edit 2: I really have too much time on my hands.

Yes you definitely do.

Anyway, I predict: 20% chance it'll be locked+edited ASAP, 30% it will disappear without a trace, 20% it will be locked after little insulted fanboys start flaming war, 25% chance it will be ignored with little to none replies, 5% chance it will live.

 

[Camrin]

There was no roleplaying, no social aspect. Everything was basically make-believe: you pretend like you run the guild, you pretend like you have some deeper relationship with various notable npcs... but you don't. You just level up, kill badies, hoard items and explore the sandbox..

Agreed, absolutely, that's how it goes. But I wouldn't call it adventure game. It's more a mix of rpg with too much fpp hack&slash (Hexen, Witchhaven) to me. But it's still the best rpg after Fallout era to me, mostly because of its outstanding fpp graphics.

 

[Roqua]

Judging from the H&S reviews so far, my guess is mosr reviewers never played a real rpg. You guys have to admit that good reviews at least equals better sales. Instead of going after evil commercials, maybe most of you would be better off going after the moronic reviewers.

If I was in charge of Bethesda I would of dumbed the game down more and poored more resources into graphics. I would of made it the most superficial rpg ever made. And I'd know it would get great reviews and rpg of the year awards from all the major sites. bethesda are basically being risky in leaving this much "rpgness" in it. It will not help during review time.

Don't blaim bethesda for making games the reviewers, and by contrast the gamers, will like and will sell well. Blaim your buddies right here on this site for liking stupid fake-rpgs and destroying the genre. Blaim the lemmings who actually go to gamespy and those other sites that think kotor and nwn are TB games, and there are no stealth options in H&S, and people dissapear. Blaim yourselves for not supporting the games you should making sure no rpgs will ever be made again by a big dev. Don't blaim the guys trying to make as much people happy as possible by making a fake rpg that most "rpg" fans will like far better than a real rpg. You're the ones that favor graphics over content, buy "action-rpgs" over real ones, and created this situation. You made your fucking bed, now lay in it bitches.

p.s. stop being gay, queers.

 

[Camrin]

Don't worry about Bethesda, they are making money out of every single one of their ES rpg. What could be the point of dumbing it down, they're wealthy enough I suppose?

There's no point in dumbing this thread down, that's for sure.

You say about favoring the graphics over content, then please show me the real rpg "content". Please direct us kindly towards the so-called "real one" crpg. Cause I've played probably nearly 300 so-called computer rpgs and only several of them allow to "play a role". And with all that graphics and weather effects, Morro allows to play one, at least on this more primitive and less erudite level. And I treasure that.

PS: stop being so macho, have some wee queer avatar like me :D