Pathfinder Why Owlcat's Kingmaker Sucks, in Plain Language

[Desiderius]

I have heard that it's possible to blunder into failstates really easily without metaknowledge.

Why are you still listening to idiots when you've got people right here who know what they're talking about?

Amiri and Val are send-ups of stronk wimmen that have been mandated now in woke Western games. That they also end up somewhat sympathetic is masterful writing, the opposite of ham-fisted.

 

[Shitty Kitty]

Amiri and Val are send-ups of stronk wimmen that have been mandated now in woke Western games. That they also end up somewhat sympathetic is masterful writing, the opposite of ham-fisted.

Amiri's basic concept is sympathetic but so far she's just such an over-the-top commentary on something something sexism something something gender norms that she comes across as a DELIBERATE PARODY of the "strong woman" trope. Val just comes across as way too "woe is me people told me I was pretty" in her writing so far, and for someone that got out of a situation that she found suffocating and ill-suited to her personality and into one where she could do more or less what she wanted, she sure seems dour.

 

[Desiderius]

Yes.

A send-up is a deliberate parody.

They are both deliberate parodies written with enough plausible deniability to fool the censors.

Samizdat

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Yes.

A send-up is a deliberate parody.

They are both deliberate parodies written with enough plausible deniability to fool the censors.

Samizdat

kingmaker fanboys are still convincing themselves of this?
"heh, the threesome where you get ORCED was just a joke!"

 

[Shitty Kitty]

Yes.

A send-up is a deliberate parody.

They are both deliberate parodies written with enough plausible deniability to fool the censors.

Samizdat

I'm not 100 percent confident that they're deliberate parodies simply because they sound so damn much like what they're parodying. Poe's Law and all that.

If it's a case of deliberate parody why not just play it straight, though? The relatable/sympathetic part of Amiri's backstory is "being underestimated simply because *reason*". That's a pretty good place to start for a character's motivations. It wouldn't even be terribly difficult to write it really well while playing it straight, just to show the idiots how it's actually done.

 

[gurugeorge]

Yes.

A send-up is a deliberate parody.

They are both deliberate parodies written with enough plausible deniability to fool the censors.

Samizdat

I wouldn't say it's Samizdat. It's more like this:-

Eastern Europe and Russia are about a decade to a half a decade behind the West in terms of poz. So from their point of view, they're still in the mode of "let's all be individualists and be nice to minorities, etc., etc." (Of course in the West this logical trajectory has gone way beyond that now.)

The result is that games from Eastern Europe (Poland, Russia, etc.) have a sort of quaint mid-Noughties take on the wokeness, and there's still room for developers to care more for gameplay, for story and character, than for filling in corporate woke box-ticking quotas; they don't yet believe that the standard issue White male is the most evil creature in all of creation, nor are they yet forced by social or economic pressure to regurgitate that message 24/7.

 

[Wulfric Pinewood]

Pathfinder is great crpg, dunno why this thread is about it sucks.

 

[LannTheStupid]

"heh, the threesome where you get ORCED was just a joke!"

Why is it a joke? This is what my Baron enjoys the most.

 

[Xamenos]

kingmaker fanboys are still convincing themselves of this?
"heh, the threesome where you get ORCED was just a joke!"

"I told the orc to fuck me and he actually did! Oh the humanity"

Maybe just don't be a retarded degenerate? You can reject his advances and guide him towards a loving, monogamous relationship with his girl. They're both happier for it. You can't blame Owlcat, they just gave you enough rope to hang yourself.

If it's a case of deliberate parody why not just play it straight, though?

Then it wouldn't be a deliberate parody, would it? Just keep playing, you haven't seen enough of her backstory yet.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

kingmaker fanboys are still convincing themselves of this?
"heh, the threesome where you get ORCED was just a joke!"

"I told the orc to fuck me and he actually did! Oh the humanity"

Maybe just don't be a retarded degenerate? You can reject his advances and guide him towards a loving, monogamous relationship with his girl. They're both happier for it. You can't blame Owlcat, they just gave you enough rope to hang yourself.

If it's a case of deliberate parody why not just play it straight, though?

Then it wouldn't be a deliberate parody, would it? Just keep playing, you haven't seen enough of her backstory yet.

we need a cope button

 

[LannTheStupid]

May be they are bots? The last batch of mentally challenged forum members ask the same questions that were beaten to death on the corresponding reddit for 2 years.

 

[Absinthe]

I somewhat agree with the bad design criticism.
It's nearly impossible to convince anyone Kingdom management is a good feature.
I tried convincing myself it's part of the 'narrative' of the struggle of a newly formed kingdom.
But it's not. It's just bad gameplay.

You can blame Paizo for that. It's part of the Kingmaker campaign they wrote. The Kingdom Building rules are all Paizo's invention too. They're not exactly good at game design.

 

[Desiderius]

Yes.

A send-up is a deliberate parody.

They are both deliberate parodies written with enough plausible deniability to fool the censors.

Samizdat

kingmaker fanboys are still convincing themselves of this?
"heh, the threesome where you get ORCED was just a joke!"

I never got Orced.

Newsflash: CE Orcs like to anally rape dipshits who ask for it. Why are you asking?

 

[Desiderius]

I somewhat agree with the bad design criticism.
It's nearly impossible to convince anyone Kingdom management is a good feature.
I tried convincing myself it's part of the 'narrative' of the struggle of a newly formed kingdom.
But it's not. It's just bad gameplay.

You can blame Paizo for that. It's part of the Kingmaker campaign they wrote. The Kingdom Building rules are all Paizo's invention too. They're not exactly good at game design.

Paizo is good at game design.

Above-it-all nihilism = pathetic butthurt. Nobody’s fooled.

 

[Technomancer]

The Kingdom Building rules are all Paizo's invention too. They're not exactly good at game design.

What about PotW? Were there some sort of crusade mechanics and were they good?

 

[Absinthe]

Paizo is good at game design.

Above-it-all nihilism = pathetic butthurt. Nobody’s fooled.

Bitch you must be joking. No one enjoys the kingdom building rules in this game. In PF regular, caster-martial divide is an abomination. Martials are frequently reduced to being auto-attack dummies and they can't even move and auto-attack without serious build optimization. Spellcasters completely shit all over everything. Non-combat mechanics are treated as an afterthought. Game is littered with trap options and fail design. Game is a giant fucking mess.

I get that you're a fanboy, but have some fucking perspective, dude.

 

[Desiderius]

Yes.

A send-up is a deliberate parody.

They are both deliberate parodies written with enough plausible deniability to fool the censors.

Samizdat

I'm not 100 percent confident that they're deliberate parodies simply because they sound so damn much like what they're parodying. Poe's Law and all that.

If it's a case of deliberate parody why not just play it straight, though? The relatable/sympathetic part of Amiri's backstory is "being underestimated simply because *reason*". That's a pretty good place to start for a character's motivations. It wouldn't even be terribly difficult to write it really well while playing it straight, just to show the idiots how it's actually done.

Because woke critics would destroy it.

She’s sympathetic when she starts to question the Poz itself. She never gets away with that without the send-up that the critics are too dull witted to catch.

Of course the writers are sympathetic with aspects of the Poz, they’re not Amish, but even the questioning is now verboten, and that’s what they smuggle in.

 

[Desiderius]

Paizo is good at game design.

Above-it-all nihilism = pathetic butthurt. Nobody’s fooled.

Bitch you must be joking. No one enjoys the kingdom building rules in this game. In PF regular, caster-martial divide is an abomination. Martials are frequently reduced to being auto-attack dummies and they can't even move and auto-attack without serious build optimization. Spellcasters completely shit all over everything. Non-combat mechanics are treated as an afterthought. Game is littered with trap options and fail design. Game is a giant fucking mess.

I get that you're a fanboy, but have some fucking perspective, dude.

Your pathetic suckitude at the game DNE bad design.

Many such cases.

 

[Desiderius]

kingmaker fanboys are still convincing themselves of this?
"heh, the threesome where you get ORCED was just a joke!"

"I told the orc to fuck me and he actually did! Oh the humanity"

Maybe just don't be a retarded degenerate? You can reject his advances and guide him towards a loving, monogamous relationship with his girl. They're both happier for it. You can't blame Owlcat, they just gave you enough rope to hang yourself.

If it's a case of deliberate parody why not just play it straight, though?

Then it wouldn't be a deliberate parody, would it? Just keep playing, you haven't seen enough of her backstory yet.

we need a cope button

What am I trying to cope with? I’ve highlighted the straight-up Tristian Poz myself.

Warrior chix making fools of themselves and questioning life choices is progress. Idiots who don’t even get that far in the game dunking on it are the cope.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

In general its very obvious that Owlcat is very inexperienced when it comes to making not only RPGs but also games in general

Some of them worked at Nivel, so they're not complete novices.

I think part of the issue is the way Kickstarter inverts the usual feedback chain between customer, developer, and publisher. Pre-sales give the developer arrogance that they can do no wrong.

 

[Desiderius]

wouldn't say it's Samizdat. It's more like this:-

Eastern Europe and Russia are about a decade to a half a decade behind the West in terms of poz. So from their point of view, they're still in the mode of "let's all be individualists and be nice to minorities, etc., etc." (Of course in the West this logical trajectory has gone way beyond that now.)

The result is that games from Eastern Europe (Poland, Russia, etc.) have a sort of quaint mid-Noughties take on the wokeness, and there's still room for developers to care more for gameplay, for story and character, than for filling in corporate woke box-ticking quotas; they don't yet believe that the standard issue White male is the most evil creature in all of creation, nor are they yet forced by social or economic pressure to regurgitate that message 24/7.

There is some of that, but that progression isn’t set in stone. First mover isn’t always an advantage. And Avellone isn’t Slav.

 

[Absinthe]

Your pathetic suckitude at the game DNE bad design.

Many such cases.

So basically you've gone full retard and decided that all critics must just be bad at the game. Seriously dude, an animal companion can out-fight an entire Fighter player character. Summoners are infamous for being able to solo the game. So can Druids in the same way. Clerics and Wizards can also summon hordes of monsters or raise armies of undead if they feel like it. Even Bards can run around mind controlling people and mind-wiping them afterwards. A Magus usually does the Fighter's job better than the Fighter because he has spells. An Alchemist with the Fast Bomb discovery can OTK bosses with trivial ease. Abusing divinations can destroy campaigns with a quickness thanks to your magical "interrogate the GM" powers. And the list of bullshit goes on and on.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Because woke critics would destroy it.

She’s sympathetic when she starts to question the Poz itself. She never gets away with that without the send-up that the critics are too dull witted to catch.

Of course the writers are sympathetic with aspects of the Poz, they’re not Amish, but even the questioning is now verboten, and that’s what they smuggle in.

The Poz in PFK is the result of either or both:

- pandering to Western degeneracy
- devs being infected themselves

Russia is overall quite free of woke plague, internet freaks notwithstanding. The only real taboo is Russian nationalism.

 

[Desiderius]

Your pathetic suckitude at the game DNE bad design.

Many such cases.

So basically you've gone full retard and decided that all critics must just be bad at the game. Seriously dude, an animal companion can out-fight an entire Fighter player character. Summoners are infamous for being able to solo the game. So can Druids in the same way. Clerics and Wizards can also summon hordes of monsters or raise armies of undead if they feel like it. Even Bards can run around mind controlling people and mind-wiping them afterwards. A Magus usually does the Fighter's job better than the Fighter because he has spells. An Alchemist with the Fast Bomb discovery can OTK bosses with trivial ease. Abusing divinations can destroy campaigns with a quickness thanks to your magical "interrogate the GM" powers. And the list of bullshit goes on and on.

No, just the ones who advertise how bad they are, like yourself.

If you haven't figured out how to play Fighter yet of all classes I don't know what to tell you.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Pre-sales give the developer arrogance that they can do no wrong.

That's why we still have some good games and not regurgitated half-digested mass that the likes of you prefer to consume.