Why RPGCodex is censored at the ESF

[Hungry Donner]

It seems incredible to me that a bunch of people can go around blithly delting posts without having a fucking clue as to why they're doing it.

I don't know the specifc reason why the auto-censor was in place, but I do know some issues that were directly or indirectly involved in this. This is why I don't have issues enforcing the rule, it's also why I can't offer a complete and official explanation for this.

I would like a more detailed explanation, but right now this is a low priority for me, and I'm dealing with several other issues I consider more important.

In essence I was banned because, short of a break in the flow of the time-continuum, I would never return to 1955. Now I remenber the reason I bitched in that E-Mail was because I viewed that as moderators that have the powers to suspend users to abuse a flaw in the suspension system to effective ban people since I simply cannot understand why would administrators would give the the ability to ban people to simple moderators.

On occasion we will temporarily suspend an account, but it's rare that this lasts more than a few days. Bans are supposed to be permenant, but this isn't an option for mods so we simply suspend people for incredibly long periods of time. It's worth pointing out that this is what we are supposed to do.

After suspending someone we make a note of this in the mod/admin forum. The admin then go through and make the bans permenant, a process that involves reviewing why the accounts were banned

So the mods aren't taking advantage of the system. We're working entirely within a system that the mods and admin developed together given what the admin wanted and what the software allowed.

The fact that I got my "suspension" terminated and recived a 25% warm ratio (in short, first warning) says a lot about the capacities of the TES forums moderation staff and how "in tune" they are with the administration staff.

As I mentioned before, it's very rare for a ban to be over turned. Occasionally it does happen, but these are exceptions. If the admin felt we weren't in tune with their expectations and policies they would tell us.

Situations that result in an instant ban are a bit tricky. For example, a few months ago someone linked to a game on an abandon ware web site. Our rules make it clear that we consider abandon ware piracy, and the website itself admited these files were technically pirated. Our rules also make it clear that linking to pirated media will result in an immediate ban.

As such I banned the account . . . however the person was a great user (I actually suggested him as a moderation candidate once) and they'd never caused any other problems, so I went to the admin and requested that the ban be over turned. They agreed with me and it was reduced to a warning.

In retrospect I should have disabled the account until this was straightened out, now I know better.


When instant-ban offences are reduced to a warning it's usually reduced to a single warning. However if the person repeats the offence the account will generally be banned outright, even if they weren't at 75%. However at this point we're dealing with situations that occur so rarely we don't really have a set policy.

 

[OverrideB1]

Even if it's a low priority for you personally, you honestly expect us to believe that not a single moderator has asked the question in all this time in the moderator's forum? Especially given the grief you say you all get when someone takes umbrage at having a post deleted/auto-censored?

 

[Monica21]

Even if it's a low priority for you personally, you honestly expect us to believe that not a single moderator has asked the question in all this time in the moderator's forum? Especially given the grief you say you all get when someone takes umbrage at having a post deleted/auto-censored?

Even if a moderator has, he has no responsibilty to tell you and he probably can't. You probably wouldn't believe what he said either way. HD's a good guy (believe it or not) and he's not a a Nazi and he's not out to get anyone. He's been a moderator for a long time and this (hopefully) is just a minor hiccup in his years there.

I personally couldn't give a shit if it's banned there or not, because I have no cause to mention it. I'm a little curious, but I do not think there's some mass conspiracy to keep negative press away from the ESF.

 

[Xi]

The truth is that over-moderation, which started just a little before the release of Morrowind, was put into place to control the direction of conversations. Yes, you folks do allow naysayers, those who disapprove of OB as a TES title, but these are also the same people who are treated like shit and sometimes banned/suspended without reason.(You try to find reasons to ban these people. They get more moderation then the people who like OB.)

Like I have said many times, the old TES forum Pre-Morrowind reminded me of a very Lite-Codex. There definitely wasn't as much badmouthing, but in a nutshell the community still had an open mind. Now, all that forum is good for is shallow teenage reviews/opinions and moderation of any thing outside of this label. Yes, there are a few good debates from time to time, but not like it used to be.

Hungry Donner you of all people should know this as you've been there an extremely long time. I remember when you weren't a moderator. I respected your opinion/views a lot more back then because Bethesda didn't control them as much as they seem to now.

The truth of Bethesda is that they have changed as a company. They promote censoring the flow of opinions and forcing there mass genocide of TES because they now cater to larger audiences. There's far too many facts to back this claim up too. Do not be blind to them. Franchise ripoffs, name changes, content redirection, they make FPS' now according to there latest Fan Mail. I'm not even going to dive into my claims. I'm sure others already have or will anyway.

The reason the RPG Codex is not allowed on the TES forum is because the RPG Codex does not praise Bethesda's products. This difference of opinion is the real reason why Bethesda censors this site. They want to protect there control of positive debate about there products. Anything that contradicts or disagrees with this is outright castrated from there boards.

Bethesda sells Marketing now a days. Gone are the days of invention and creativity. TES is dead. We will never see another Daggerfall, which was the pinnacle of TES, again because they want to appeal to the mass market as opposed to their niche hardcore community(which is still profitable). Bethesda is a churning Corporate engine that only cares about increasing its flow of income.

Just because more people buy your games does not mean that you are making better products. This conversation is so fucking lame anyway....

 

[Proweler]

I don't know the specifc reason why the auto-censor was in place, but I do know some issues that were directly or indirectly involved in this. This is why I don't have issues enforcing the rule, it's also why I can't offer a complete and official explanation for this.

Some issue's do not justify a ban on every mention - which is what the effect of the autosensor is.

Considering that the replacement is "I love Oblivion", it all seems kinda childish what is going on here.

 

[Elhoim]

Besides, changing RPGCODEX to "I love Oblivion", shows what they think about this site. Saying RPGCODEX means the same as "I hate Oblivion".

 

[Khajjit Overlord Rainer]

Xaana: I can't believe this thread got to 7 pages long. Is it really any surprise that Bethesda engages in underhanded tactics? Look at all the bullshit hype they created before the game, the dumbed down game itself, the complete lack of customer service, the two dollar ripoff mods, the hundreds of reviews praising the game posted on the main site... have you still not gotten it yet?

They want your money, and to do that they will silence all criticism. Because they can. They won't give space to anyone on their site who isn't praising the game, because potential customers might see that and then decide not to buy it.

Rainer: That's why I'm headed over there right now to post a bunch of I HATE OBLIVION AND ARCHIE topics... and I sure hope HD doesn't ban my main account over there...

Xaana: Shut the fuck up Khajiit Overlord Rainer...

 

[Admiral Rimjob POOBUM]

Rainer: That's why I'm headed over there right now to post a bunch of I HATE OBLIVION AND ARCHIE topics... and I sure hope HD doesn't ban my main account over there...

Er. They probably will.

 

[OverrideB1]

Even if it's a low priority for you personally, you honestly expect us to believe that not a single moderator has asked the question in all this time in the moderator's forum? Especially given the grief you say you all get when someone takes umbrage at having a post deleted/auto-censored?

Even if a moderator has, he has no responsibilty to tell you and he probably can't. You probably wouldn't believe what he said either way. HD's a good guy (believe it or not) and he's not a a Nazi and he's not out to get anyone. He's been a moderator for a long time and this (hopefully) is just a minor hiccup in his years there.

I personally couldn't give a shit if it's banned there or not, because I have no cause to mention it. I'm a little curious, but I do not think there's some mass conspiracy to keep negative press away from the ESF.

Like you, I don't actually give a shit about TES since I don't intend to return to the ES boards until Bethesda actually create another decent cRPG. Which is, effectively, going to be never.

What I do care about, however, is the fact that censoring or deleting any mention of the Codex prevents anyone from getting a different take on Oblivion, Bethesda, or cRPGs in general. Which is, of course, exactly what Bethesda want -- keep the people in ignorance so that they'll continue to purchase their debased and pathetic product while they rape the franchise for every cent it'll produce.

I'm also deeply concerned about the line of company bullshit HD is spouting -- to have anyone believe that they have zero clue about why any mention of the Codex is treated like a Satanist at a Christian rally is endemic of Bethesda's new corporate face and their opinions of the great unwashed masses who keep them in beer, pizza, and beemers.

 

[Blahblah Talks]

I wonder if the copy of Oblivion the mods received came with 30 of those coins that were in the Collector's Edition.

 

[Nutcracker]

I'd say this is far more likely to be a personal issue coming straight from the top. There used to be quite a few devs who posted here (moreso than at the ESF in fact), and there's a good chance that they kept on lurking. It is easy to see how a few of them could have been sitting around their computer looking at some of the comments/parodies of Todd and/or Pete...rumours of this would have spread up the chain quite easily. I imagine they werent too impressed either...

 

[Elhoim]

I saw a Beth Dev yesterday.

Horrible creatures, I avoid them whenever I can.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Several Bethesda developers often cracked jokes about Todd and Pete in private conversations, usually referring to Pete as Pete Full of Shit Hines, which is the name he got at the Codex.

 

[Whipporowill]

Several Bethesda developers often cracked jokes about Todd and Pete in private conversations, usually referring to Pete as Pete Full of Shit Hines, which is the name he got at the Codex.

And how the hell would you know that? So there's truth to you being a Beth Dev in disguise?

I mean, kinda hard to substantiate unless you were there...

 

[Nutcracker]

MSFD told him, he PMed him asking why Bethesda devs no longer posted on here.

 

[User was nabbed fit]

Several Bethesda developers often cracked jokes about Todd and Pete in private conversations, usually referring to Pete as Pete Full of Shit Hines, which is the name he got at the Codex.

And how the hell would you know that? So there's truth to you being a Beth Dev in disguise?

I mean, kinda hard to substantiate unless you were there...

Yes, VD has been focusing this site's attention on Oblivion as a means of a viral advertisement hidden behind slander!



Edit:

MSFD told him, he PMed him asking why Bethesda devs no longer posted on here.

Liez! This case has already been solved!

 

[Hungry Donner]

Even if it's a low priority for you personally, you honestly expect us to believe that not a single moderator has asked the question in all this time in the moderator's forum?

We specifically asked the admin what we should tell people when they asked why the censor was in place. We were told, among other things, that if someone asks about this we should direct them to the admin.

I'm also deeply concerned about the line of company bullshit HD is spouting -- to have anyone believe that they have zero clue about why any mention of the Codex is treated like a Satanist at a Christian rally is endemic of Bethesda's new corporate face and their opinions of the great unwashed masses who keep them in beer, pizza, and beemers.

I never said I had no clue, quite the opposite in fact.

The truth is that over-moderation, which started just a little before the release of Morrowind, was put into place to control the direction of conversations.

The first moderators were added after Morrowind was released, and they were specifically added to help with the problems in General Discussions. A few months later five more mods, including myself, were brought on. Again, the largest problem was General Discussion.


Bethesda has never asked or implied that we should be harsher with people who didn't like the game. In fact, several admin have said that they get more out of civil critiques than people who feel the games are perfect.

We've also never been told that we need to love the games. During Oblivion's developement I posted a number of times about things that concerned me, and I've been critical of Morrowind and Daggerfall as well.

Yes, you folks do allow naysayers, those who disapprove of OB as a TES title, but these are also the same people who are treated like shit and sometimes banned/suspended without reason.(You try to find reasons to ban these people. They get more moderation then the people who like OB.)

We've never banned someone without reason. And I've never felt that a moderator was targetting someone because they were critical of the game.

And we warn and ban a lot of people who like the game.

Hungry Donner you of all people should know this as you've been there an extremely long time. I remember when you weren't a moderator. I respected your opinion/views a lot more back then because Bethesda didn't control them as much as they seem to now.

There was some great stuff back then, especially during the summer of 2001. However there was also a lot of junk back then.

The forums went to hell in the months proceeding Morrowind's release, and got even worse afterwards. Much of this was a period of minimal moderation from Bethesda. In fact the lack of moderation (both formally from bethesda and informally from the community) contributed greatly to these problems.

The forums were so good in the early days because they were small enough that the community could moderate itself. That works when you have two or three thousand members, it doesn't work when you have sixty thousand . . . and there are currently about 225,000 members on Bethesda's forums - about 100x as many members as the forums had during those early days.

The reason the RPG Codex is not allowed on the TES forum is because the RPG Codex does not praise Bethesda's products.

I've been to a number of fan forums that have very critical opinions of TES IV, so if Bethesda is trying to block any website with a dissenting opinion they're doing a really crappy job.

There are also a lot of critical opinions posted on the forums.

And there were plenty of critical opinions posted after Morrowind's release, and during Oblivion's developement. If we had the option to crush dissenters would we have really allowed so many topics about the compass? Or the fact that there were fewer skills? Or the lack of spears and throwing weapons?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Several Bethesda developers often cracked jokes about Todd and Pete in private conversations, usually referring to Pete as Pete Full of Shit Hines, which is the name he got at the Codex.

And how the hell would you know that? So there's truth to you being a Beth Dev in disguise?

I mean, kinda hard to substantiate unless you were there...

I meant conversations with me, obviously. Duh! Did you miss that FO3 drama?
http://www.duckandcover.cx/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15193

I've been trying to score a Fallout 3 interview for a long time, and I talked to quite a few Bethesda developers. Some were very chatty. I even thought of posting an unofficial interview without names, but I was asked not to.

MSFD told him, he PMed him asking why Bethesda devs no longer posted on here.

No. MSFD gave me a very dry "at this point I'll just let the game speak for itself once it's out" reply and I haven't spoken to him ever since.

 

[Whipporowill]

I meant conversations with me, obviously. Duh! Did you miss that FO3 drama?
http://www.duckandcover.cx/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15193

Man, that was a depressing read. But yeah, I probably remember that - vaguely, you trying to score an interview but Pete stonewalling even though the developers where chatty. Or was it just the same with Oblivion?

And MFSD sure ended on a sour note. All that defending the game and then realizing he'd never be able to show his face around here again... poor sob, he knew all along!

 

[Vault Dweller]

Man, that was a depressing read. But yeah, I probably remember that - vaguely, you trying to score an interview but Pete stonewalling even though the developers where chatty. Or was it just the same with Oblivion?

It started with Oblivion (although Kathode agreed to talk about Fallout at some point), but Pete killed 3 interviews. Then I stopped asking Pete and just continued looking for and talking with Beth developers. It's not that hard to find a few people willing to talk about what they do.

And MFSD sure ended on a sour note.

He sure did.

 

[Monica21]

Bethesda has never asked or implied that we should be harsher with people who didn't like the game. In fact, several admin have said that they get more out of civil critiques than people who feel the games are perfect.

As someone who's been in HD's position, I can say with he's absolutely right. No one gets warnings or bans for disliking something. How you express your opinion is what matters. I do not like Oblivion and uninstalled it a month after I bought it. I have no warnings however, and I've never had a conversation with a mod or admin about my behavior.

Attacks against the game are tiresome, and I remember attacks against Morrowind just after release. Moderators, of course, could not and would not do anything about those posts because they were civil. People who make accounts specifically to troll and find their way around the auto-censor will get themselves in trouble, with good reason.

And MFSD sure ended on a sour note. All that defending the game and then realizing he'd never be able to show his face around here again... poor sob, he knew all along!

I think MSFD left because someone made a derogatory comment about his wife.

What I think is that the censoring is probably personal, but no one will really ever know the reason why except those involved. It really doesn't matter though, because it is possible to post on this forum and the ESF and share opinions, as long as you pay heed to the TOS. "Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics. Even if you win you're still retarded." Instead of two posters though, this is two forums, and both just end up looking silly.

 

[Whipporowill]

I think MSFD left because someone made a derogatory comment about his wife.

Nah, that's already been debunked. He was here for at least a month after the "horse and comets" incidents...

 

[Micmu]

*clue* He left exactly at the same time as mentioning RPG codex was "unofficially" prohibited at their official forums.

 

[Kos_Koa]

All of this is quite sad. The sole reason I started frequenting the codex was because MSFD started posting game info. And now to see how it all turned out. It seems like everyone lost something to Oblivion... for me, it was hope.

A look back at MSFD's last public post on the codex.

The irony is that, if there actually is some decent role-playing features in Oblivion, the PR approach is actually hiding them and generating bad publicity.

Reality is, they are selling it as an action game on the primary xbox site: http://www.xbox.com/en-US/games/catalog.aspx?st=Oblivion
(Site has an RPG section.)

Genre: Action

Yeah, I'd noticed that too. Dunno why. We're certainly developing Oblivion and marketing it as an RPG.

It's a sad irony.

 

[Monica21]

I think MSFD left because someone made a derogatory comment about his wife.

Nah, that's already been debunked. He was here for at least a month after the "horse and comets" incidents...

Even so, can you blame him? Why bother posting on a forum where every design decision you made is questioned? I'm not saying I like or dislike the end product, I'm saying that I think he spent more than enough time to make his case, no one was buying it, so why waste time?