Why RPGCodex is censored at the ESF

[Drakron]

And since when do programers make design decisions?

MSFD defended design decisions that were not his, if they were then we can see the mess of Oblivion being from the lack of a central design since they were letting the programmers having a say over the game design ...

 

[VenomByte]

As a programmer, he's still going to have some say over what is/isnt possible to implement in time, what might have repercussions etc. That's a limited decision power, but still some level of control nonetheless.

 

[Lord Chambers]

Why bother posting on a forum where every design decision you made is questioned?

Because you believe intelligent discourse is vital to production of quality games? Because you are rational, behave in a conscientious manner, and are able to defend your convictions when challenged?

 

[Monica21]

Why bother posting on a forum where every design decision you made is questioned?

Because you believe intelligent discourse is vital to production of quality games? Because you are rational, behave in a conscientious manner, and are able to defend your convictions when challenged?

I don't remember all the details of his postings, but I'm pretty sure he did that. Very few people on this forum think Oblivion is a good RPG or even deserves the RPG label, but MSFD did. He wasn't changing anyone's mind, so I would think that continuing to post here would have been the internet equivalent of banging one's head against a wall. Besides that, what does being rational and behaving in a conscientious manner have to do with posting on an internet forum?

Whether anyone here likes the game or if he will or won't defend his decisions is irrelevant. He created a game he thinks is good, and few people here agree with him.

 

[Elhoim]

Besides that, what does being rational and behaving in a conscientious manner have to do with posting on an internet forum?

QFT. :D

 

[sabishii]

Why bother posting on a forum where every design decision you made is questioned?

Because you believe intelligent discourse is vital to production of quality games? Because you are rational, behave in a conscientious manner, and are able to defend your convictions when challenged?

I don't remember all the details of his postings, but I'm pretty sure he did that. Very few people on this forum think Oblivion is a good RPG or even deserves the RPG label, but MSFD did. He wasn't changing anyone's mind, so I would think that continuing to post here would have been the internet equivalent of banging one's head against a wall. Besides that, what does being rational and behaving in a conscientious manner have to do with posting on an internet forum?

Whether anyone here likes the game or if he will or won't defend his decisions is irrelevant. He created a game he thinks is good, and few people here agree with him.

I only hang out with people that agree with everything I say or do.

 

[Ahzaruuk]

I only hang out with people that agree with everything I say or do.

:shock:

For some reason beyond my powers of explination, that frightens me...

 

[Jasede]

Ahzaruuk, you have to get used to the fact that many here use a lot of sarcasm, irony and cynicism.

Congratulations, however, if you were only kidding.

 

[Ahzaruuk]

Ahzaruuk, you have to get used to the fact that many here use a lot of sarcasm, irony and cynicism.

Congratulations, however, if you were only kidding.

Sadly, Due to Aspergers Syndrome, I rarely kid.

But thanks for the clarification.

 

[Jasede]

Well, funny, I have that, too, though my senses are finely attuned to cynicism, sarcasm and irony. See how the Codex can even improve your social and empathic skills?

 

[Ahzaruuk]

Well, funny, I have that, too, though my senses are finely attuned to cynicism, sarcasm and irony. See how the Codex can even improve your social and empathic skills?

I guess.

I can never tell when people are being sarcastic even in real life...

 

[Jasede]

In real life, I have trouble with it, too, but not with written text. Ah well. Enough chit-chat before they think I am an ESF sympathizer!

 

[Lumpy]

Bethesda has never asked or implied that we should be harsher with people who didn't like the game. In fact, several admin have said that they get more out of civil critiques than people who feel the games are perfect.

As someone who's been in HD's position, I can say with he's absolutely right. No one gets warnings or bans for disliking something. How you express your opinion is what matters. I do not like Oblivion and uninstalled it a month after I bought it. I have no warnings however, and I've never had a conversation with a mod or admin about my behavior.

You were a moderator?

 

[Admiral Rimjob POOBUM]

Bethesda has never asked or implied that we should be harsher with people who didn't like the game. In fact, several admin have said that they get more out of civil critiques than people who feel the games are perfect.

As someone who's been in HD's position, I can say with he's absolutely right. No one gets warnings or bans for disliking something. How you express your opinion is what matters. I do not like Oblivion and uninstalled it a month after I bought it. I have no warnings however, and I've never had a conversation with a mod or admin about my behavior.

You were a moderator?

For a few months, as I recall.

 

[Hungry Donner]

You were a moderator?

A very good moderator.

For a few months, as I recall.

I believe it was closer to a year, but I'm pretty tired so my memory might be fuzzy

 

[Monica21]

You were a moderator?

A very good moderator.

Thank you. And yeah, it was about a year.

 

[Blahblah Talks]

The forums were so good in the early days because they were small enough that the community could moderate itself. That works when you have two or three thousand members, it doesn't work when you have sixty thousand . . . and there are currently about 225,000 members on Bethesda's forums - about 100x as many members as the forums had during those early days.

I call bullshit. I'm sure that well over half of that 225k is inactive. I set up 4 or 5 accounts, but I don't visit anymore. People like to drag out this bullshit statistic whenever there are discussions about how difficult it is to moderate, etc. That number means next to nothing. If you want a real measure of a forum go with posts/day. A 1000 member forum where every member is making 100 posts a day is harder to moderate than 100,000 member forum where half the members are inactive, one quarter lurk, and one quarter post once a day.

 

[John Yossarian]

About 30k-40k have 8 posts or more, and more than half have 0. That's still a lot of people though.

 

[Blahblah Talks]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying moderating TESF is easy, just that people tend to exagerate the problem, most often by using the "Look at how many users we have" argument.

 

[Darkflame]

Ah well. Enough chit-chat before they think I am an ESF sympathizer!

Get him, boyz...

 

[Hungry Donner]

I call bullshit. I'm sure that well over half of that 225k is inactive. I set up 4 or 5 accounts, but I don't visit anymore. People like to drag out this bullshit statistic whenever there are discussions about how difficult it is to moderate, etc. That number means next to nothing. If you want a real measure of a forum go with posts/day. A 1000 member forum where every member is making 100 posts a day is harder to moderate than 100,000 member forum where half the members are inactive, one quarter lurk, and one quarter post once a day.

I never said they were all actively participating on the forums. Most of the people here are quite familiar with how forums work, and you're smart enough to know that the total number of accounts is not an exact representation of activity.

Yes, most of those 225k accounts have very few posts, or no posts at all. However this was also true when there were only 2-3k accounts on the forums. By looking at the growth in accounts you can get a general idea of how busy the forum is. And since I lack any specific information about forum activity in 2001 a general idea is the best I can give you.


And really, if I thought it was easy to dupe you people with statistics I would have compensated for the fact that accounts now expire if left inactive for a long period of time.

 

[Dmitron]

The auto-censor is simply being lazy, I know "The Pirates Bay" (sweedish torrent tracker site)

tracert piratebay.org

 

[dongle]

Why bother posting on a forum where every design decision you made is questioned?

Because you believe intelligent discourse is vital to production of quality games? Because you are rational, behave in a conscientious manner, and are able to defend your convictions when challenged?

I don't remember all the details of his postings, but I'm pretty sure he did that. Very few people on this forum think Oblivion is a good RPG or even deserves the RPG label, but MSFD did.

From what I remember there were a number of folks here holding out some hope, in part from what MFSD was telling us, that Oblivion would turn out to be a half-decent RPG. Maybe not re-define the genre, but decent enough to devote some time to. Not everyone felt that way, but there were a significant group. I think the majority believed Oblivion would be a decent game. Not a "real" RPG, but a fun enough little exploration hack-n-slash worth picking up at launch. There were detractors, of course, that's what makes this place so interesting.

Come release day the grim reality dawned on us, slowly at first, and then quite quickly. Oblivion sucks as a game, never mind as a true RPG. Opinions shifted, and suddenly the Codex seemed like an island of sanity amidst a barrage of boundless praise nearly everywhere else. That's when the siege mentality stated to kick in. Folks were dumbfounded that this steaming pile of turd was getting hailed as the savior of the genre. And naturally opinions became even more vociferous.

Fast-forward to today and you get all these posters keen to claim they always hated Oblivion, from back before it was even announced, and to prove they're the "true" Codexers that found this site before the Elder Scrolls Forums. Wasn't nearly so polarized "back in the day".

Now, when MSFD was posting here he was at a clear advantage. Having access to the game's inner workings, and probably able to play it on a daily basis. Where all we had were a few carefully posed and manipulated screenshots (that ended up looking nothing like the final game) and a bunch of PR speak. The hype, while annoying, would have been forgivable if a decent game were under the hood. That was one of MSFD's main contentions, that there is so much more depth to it that we're just not hearing about yet. Yeah right.

While I appreciate MSFD's willingness to come here and post, under duress at times, I feel it's pretty lame of him to duck out before the Codex got any chance to play Oblivion and form it's own opinion. That is, if it was his own decision. . . .

 

[Drakron]

Honestly what I remenber of MSFD was a buch of "trust us" when it delved into talking about the game, its fairly easy to check by looking at his profile and check his posts.

I clearly remenber him saying we would love Oblivion dungeons without going into any detail to why.

To say we hold a reservation over Oblivion would be a understatement but you are forgetting something, when Oblivion was officialy anounced they also said several things about the game content, such as "no crossbows" because "bows have a really neat animation" ... it because easy to guess the direction of that game and MSFD did very little to give us any cofidence over it (of course any he did would be dispelled by Pete and Todd).

 

[dongle]

"Cool bow animations, oh teh horror!" :D

Seriously tho, while no one really expected another Daggerfall, there were plenty who expected something on level with Morrowind. Sure there were dissenting views, there always are, that's what makes it so interesting here. To claim the entire Codex instantly hated Oblivion from the moment it was announced is just posturing to make you seem cool. Not working.

You can't deny the climate is much more negative now than it was, say, a year ago. And with good reason I might add, the game sucked. And that was the point I was trying to make.