Why so few games with permadeath/ironman/hardcore modes?

[Valdetiosi]

Or games with handcrafted content that allow you to save and reload in case of death.

You know... normal games without this silly permadeath thing that has become a trend for some reason, alongside shitty procedural generation.

Define normal

 

[JarlFrank]

Or games with handcrafted content that allow you to save and reload in case of death.

You know... normal games without this silly permadeath thing that has become a trend for some reason, alongside shitty procedural generation.

Define normal

A game with real handcrafted content rather than proc gen boredom

 

[Harthwain]

Or games with handcrafted content that allow you to save and reload in case of death.

You know... normal games without this silly permadeath thing that has become a trend for some reason, alongside shitty procedural generation.

I thought we're discussing procedurally generated games, not "games with handcrafted content that allow you to save and reload in case of death"?

 

[JarlFrank]

This thread is about permadeath, not about procgen.

 

[Harthwain]

One follows the other though. Having permadeath without a solid design behind it is folly.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

There is a thread about procgen.

Shit gets buried fast to 2nd page+ fast on the codex. Its like a giant cat in a sandbox. Gotta bury it fast.

 

[Valdetiosi]

As for now, I'm currently playing Noita. Very good roguelike, applying save scumming or redoing stuff would hinder the experience. Now that I think about it, lot of roguelikes would lose their charm a lot if you could just save up from previous save and continue your run, you wouldn't experiment at all, just play trial and error.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Is Dead Cells any good?
Roguelite? Metroidvania? Roguevania!

 

[Blutwurstritter]

I don't see how permadeath would improve fully fledged rpg's. But I'd consider using a "Copperman" option that disables saves during combat/critical situations or that changes free saves to checkpoints + single save. I have also yet to encounter a crpg with procgen that delivers a experience close to a handmade games like Gothic, BG, Fallout, Drakensang RoT, etc. Developers even have a hard time creating good content manually, so I have my doubts about their ability to create a procgen system that churns out consistent good quality.

 

[Reinhardt]

A real gamer plays with a Glock near his mouse. When he dies in-game he takes a bullet to the brain. Hesitation is defeat.

"Gamer" "brain"

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Or a bomb is set and death triggers it to explode. I hear there are nuclear suitcases around. You're playing for the fate of everyone around you. Don't worry. Someday they'll have planet bombs or solar bombs. The stakes could increase for your gaming thrills.

 

[Darth Canoli]

A real gamer plays with a Glock near his mouse. When he dies in-game he takes a bullet to the brain. Hesitation is defeat.

You should spread your philosophy in the single character walking simulators threads and the jrpg subforum.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

A real gamer plays with a Glock near his mouse. When he dies in-game he takes a bullet to the brain. Hesitation is defeat.

You should spread your philosophy in the single character walking simulators threads and the jrpg subforum.

Limited saves are a trope in JRPGs. And a lot of walking simulator don't have a save system at all.

 

[Darth Canoli]

A real gamer plays with a Glock near his mouse. When he dies in-game he takes a bullet to the brain. Hesitation is defeat.

You should spread your philosophy in the single character walking simulators threads and the jrpg subforum.

Limited saves are a trope in JRPGs. And a lot of walking simulator don't have a save system at all.

Obviously, i meant the gun part after a game over...

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Attach walking simulators to Peloton/Nordictrack for the irl walking benefit.

 

[Arthandas]

Permadeath sucks and makes you play in less fun ways, because you end up avoiding risks. And no risk, no fun.

Except unless you have something to lose - and you don't without a permadeath - you're not actually taking any risks which makes your whole argument invalid.
Taking on an optional boss or a branch in a traditional roguelike where you can either gain powerful artifacts or just lose the run is more rewarding (even if you die) than winning a battle after six re-loads in some new popamole rpg.

Anyone who wants that mode is willing to impose it on himself.

That's your answer.
If permadeath is what really gives you a kick, you can play any game this way.

Actually you can't. Proper permadeath is much more than just losing a character/game if hp=0. Permadeath should be supported by other game mechanics like Death's Door in Darkest Dungeon or Constitution based resurrection and corpse retrieving expeditions in early Wizardry games. It also dictates a whole game structure:
- the game should be procedurally generated so each run feels different and you need to overcome different obstacles
- it should be relatively short for a single character games (classic roguelikes) where your death means the game is over, permadeath in long games makes sense only if you're controlling multiple characters like in the Darkest Dungeon, nuXcoms or blobbers

All those things make the game more fun and rewarding to play while self imposed permadeath where you just straight up quit the game upon death adds nothing but frustration and completely misses the point.

 

[JarlFrank]

It also dictates a whole game structure:
- the game should be procedurally generated

This is the most convincing argument against permadeath I have seen yet.

 

[Arthandas]

It also dictates a whole game structure:
- the game should be procedurally generated

This is the most convincing argument against permadeath I have seen yet.

Yeah, I bet Slay the Spire would be much better if the map was static and you had to fight the same enemies and approach the same encounters and bosses every single run.

 

[JarlFrank]

Hand-made encounters are always better than procedural randomness.

Fact.

 

[Arthandas]

I don't think you fully understand the term. Do you think the enemies in roguelikes have random stats, skills or attributes? Do you think every environment tile is procedurally generated?
What do you think you'll find in the first cave in ADOM? Do you think the game is compiling together 100000 random bits of code into a full adventure when you click "start"?

 

[koyota]

Only played Fallout 4 on survival / perma death mode (Saving only at the end of sessions) and could not imagine playing without it.
Made the game feel so tense / rewarding.
Actually having to think about my plans of attack.


So many of the problems listed in this thread are fixed in a game like Fallout 4.

-You can retreat from almost every battle (In fact running for dear life , while doing supply runs scavenging for armor parts , was some of the most tense/ fun I had in the game).
-Open world games are fun to restart and go in another direction. Fallout games give multiple ways to tackle almost any situation.
-The Horrible rubber-banding level scaling actually can be useful for once, because unlikely you are going to get sniped one shoted from 50 feet away, unless you barge into areas.
-Makes you become very afraid of running near stationary cars

 

[Nortar]

Anyone who wants that mode is willing to impose it on himself.

That's your answer.
If permadeath is what really gives you a kick, you can play any game this way.

Actually you can't. Proper permadeath is much more than just losing a character/game if hp=0. Permadeath should be supported by other game mechanics

Exactly.
That was the point of the discussion, "why so few "proper" RPGs have permadeath mode".
Because permadeath mode in it's simpliest and lamest form - you die, you restart - slapped just so it's there, is rather pointless, especially in a game that takes dozens of hours to finish. I have no idea who is the target auditory for such a mode in a game like PoE or P:KM, except those couple of outists who are willing to replay 40-hours just because they blinked at a wrong moment.

No one argues with the right of rogue-likes to exist; for them permadeath is a gameplay driver, not a gimmick.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

The option seems fine if it is an OPTION. Forced all the time is kind of meh. You buy or get a game for enjoyment. How you play it is on you. I don't care if you hexedit or hack or cheat at it tbh. Your experience not mine.

 

[Arthandas]

Well, what are some good examples or permadeath/ironman/save limitation implementations in rpgs and rpg-adjacent genres (excluding classic roguelikes)?

From what I've played, the only games that come to mind are the early wizardies, dark heart of uukrul, nuxcom, darkest dungeon, iratus and modern roguelites like the tainted grail or trials of fire.

 

[gurugeorge]

I think the only problem with permadeath is when in the early levels of a game you can easily fall victim to random bad RNG rolls because the "grain" of HP and such at early levels is too coarse. It should be something that penalizes you for tactical mistakes or a bad build, not something that strikes in kind of a stupid, random way.