Wildman Discussion Thread

[Metro]

He needs to pull the plug on this. Not getting $500k in a week never mind the fact he already admitted he can't make the game without three times what he's asking.

 

[HobGoblin42]

Tom Hall's new project doesn't look well either. Kickstarter became a death trap for desperate veteran developer.

764
backers

$41,437
pledged of $400,000 goal

21
days to go

 

[Charles-cgr]

He needs to pull the plug on this. Not getting $500k in a week never mind the fact he already admitted he can't make the game without three times what he's asking.

Just from a purely statistical point of view Wildman isn't dead yet. from the comments:

Wildman is at 41% with a week left. It is an over 100k goal project, making things a bit tougher but not impossible. Currently we're at a ~70% odds of successful funding. If this can enter the final surge with 50%, Wildman has a ~75% chance of reaching goal. If we enter the final 72 hours with 60% total, we could have an almost 80% odds to succeed.

I don't have time to check those estimates though, and this campaign does stand out from previous ones due to the layoff announcements. They're in uncharted terrtory.

 

[Metro]

It's dead: http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/gaspoweredgames/wildman-an-evolutionary-action-rpg/

 

[Brother None]

It was dead over a week ago. They needed 50K a day and were getting less than 20K. Dunno when he'll pull the plug. Estimating raising 40% in the final 72 hours is easy seems like a folly to me. The final rush rarely raises significantly more than the first rush, which for Wildman was just $100K. So that's a bullshit estimate.

I don't believe in Kickstarter fatigue, but the gold rush-free money period is long over. You need a strong pitch of something that appeals specifically to the Kickstarter mindset, and you need a long prep period with Kickstarter being step 40, not step 1. Wildman had none of that. Sad, but just reality.

 

[General Maxson]

It was dead over a week ago. They needed 50K a day and were getting less than 20K. Dunno when he'll pull the plug. Estimating raising 40% in the final 72 hours is easy seems like a folly to me. The final rush rarely raises significantly more than the first rush, which for Wildman was just $100K. So that's a bullshit estimate.

I don't believe in Kickstarter fatigue, but the gold rush-free money period is long over. You need a strong pitch of something that appeals specifically to the Kickstarter mindset, and you need a long prep period with Kickstarter being step 40, not step 1. Wildman had none of that. Sad, but just reality.

As far as project Wildman goes, it's not sad. It's another generic arpg #4331. So no sadness in it failing. I don't know why people even try to kickstart mmorpgs and arpg. Like we need more of those, even the popamole crowd.

 

[Mrowak]

I don't believe in Kickstarter fatigue, but the gold rush-free money period is long over. You need a strong pitch of something that appeals specifically to the Kickstarter mindset, and you need a long prep period with Kickstarter being step 40, not step 1. Wildman had none of that. Sad, but just reality.

The problem is those early pitches had none of these things. I mean look at Obsidian's campaign - they pretty much had no clue what they are doing with all those streach goals, and beyond a few keywords and two art pieces they had nothing. In comparison, GasPowered Games had a lot more.

Conclusion? GasPowered Games should have invested more skillpoints in PR and specifically "random keywords" tree.

Seriously, though, I think people are tired of Kickstarter projects, so each new campaign need to offer a lot more content, and be more substantial than earlier ones. Wildman was far from that.

 

[HobGoblin42]

It's sad, because Chris Taylor would deserve a chance on KS. He invested pretty much in Wildman, unfortunately the game itself didn't legitimate his energy, time, hope and money. In contrast to Hall/Braithwaite/Thorvalla, Chris has my sympathy.

 

[Brother None]

The problem is those early pitches had none of these things.

Yip. And it's taking a few failures for people to figure it out. I was discussing this with Fargo throughout, the way the process is changing, and we both agreed the requirements have changed a lot. Torment's approach will be very different from Eternity, and obviously it's having a long, long run-up to its actual Kickstarter. But you have to be aware of that change and adapt, it's a different Kickstarter period now. I still don't like the "fatigue" concept, I think there can still be multi-million projects (though I don't expect Torment to be one), but you have to very carefully manage it.

Wildman's main problem wasn't even its pitch, although I would point out its initial pitch did not have "a lot more", its initial pitch was weak-sauce, uninformative, "give us money so we can make a game where you hit stuff". Only when they realized that pitch was too weak did they desperately start showing off an unfinished game. GodUS had a similar start weak then play catch-up throughout process. Starting strong is so important. But the core problem, aside from a weak initial pitch, was simply the fact that this game does not have the niche appeal that drives Kickstarter, it's too mainstream and doesn't have enough to set it apart.

Chris is a great guy, but yeah, Just Another Action RPG (JAAR, the gaming equivalent of JAG)? Pitching what is basically a browser game expanded into a Kickstarter concept? It's no shock it doesn't have the clout to raise one million.

 

[Wizfall]

I do believe in kickstarter fatigue in the way that "not so" interesting or "reliable" project could not be successful anymore.
And i know i did not pledge to some projects i was quite interested too like Conquistador and some adventure game because of this "fatigue". I already have enough games to look forward, let see how it"s gonna work first.
I'm quite sure Wildman and Tom Hall platformer would not have been more successful earlier though (at least the "not so" interesting project that have been successful asked for much less or would have been succesful anyways but not as much).
I although think W2, PE or Shadowrun would have raise as much today than they had.
And IMO the strong pitch thing is exaggerated or at least is not a magic thing.
W2 TB, fallout ancestor
PE baldur's gate 3
SR shadowrun, TB cRPG, SNES influence.
It is the base concept+fame/reliability of the developer to deliver that matter and make the strong pitch. And having something to show too but that not really what i call a pitch.
It's not the "funny"video and "strong pitch" that make a kickstarter a success even if that can of course help.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I don't believe in Kickstarter fatigue, but the gold rush-free money period is long over. You need a strong pitch of something that appeals specifically to the Kickstarter mindset, and you need a long prep period with Kickstarter being step 40, not step 1. Wildman had none of that. Sad, but just reality.

You mean like Project Eternity?

Pitch (reflecting a long prep period): Alright you primitive screwheads, listen up! You see this? This is a BG meets your favorite IE game that is not BG kickstarter. Start throwing money at it and if we like your enthusiasm, we'll draw a picture of a warrior holding a sword."

As for Taylor, he does sound like a nice guy, but KS isn't about rewarding nice guys. It's about selling the dream and there is nothing dreamy about Wildman. It sounds like an interesting game, probably better than most arpgs, but it's not enough to loosen up the wallets. Taylor's strength was cool RTS that were way ahead of the competition and that's what everyone wants to see. Not to mention that awful Dungeon Siege games don't inspire much confidence either.

 

[Brother None]

You mean like Project Eternity?

Yes. I'm saying that time is over.

Exceptions will probably happen, but the ease with which DFA, Wasteland 2 and Eternity got funding is fading, to my eyes. A lot of the same principles still apply, you're still selling a dream, depending on nostalgia and the attractiveness to a niche crowd which Wildman wildly misses, but the ease of returns with strength of pitch and especially investing in the run-up are changing significantly, which a lot of these companies are not catching up on quickly enough. It may not determine success or failure, but can determine the strength of it.

I may well be mistaken, but that's my opinion from close observations, discussions with involved people etc... I know you dislike the process inherently, but it's also a changing process, and I'm less wry in my observations.

 

[Infinitron]

Remember that even at the very height of the Kickstarter hype, Crowdsourced Hardcore Tactical Shooter barely got funded.

(Today, of course, it would have failed miserably.)

 

[Vault Dweller]

You mean like Project Eternity?

Yes. I'm saying that time is over.

Exceptions will probably happen, but the ease with which DFA, Wasteland 2 and Eternity got funding is fading, to my eyes. A lot of the same principles still apply, you're still selling a dream, depending on nostalgia and the attractiveness to a niche crowd which Wildman wildly misses, but the ease of returns with strength of pitch and especially investing in the run-up are changing significantly, which a lot of these companies are not catching up on quickly enough. It may not determine success or failure, but can determine the strength of it.

I may well be mistaken, but that's my opinion from close observations, discussions with involved people etc... I know you dislike the process inherently, but it's also a changing process, and I'm less wry in my observations.

In my humble opinion, it's far from over. People were talking about the KS fatique long before PE and the Elite game kickstarters, which offered almost no info, gave no impression that anyone's given themn much thought, but at the same time they offered what a lot of gamers wanted - another BG/IWD game, another Elite game, etc. That's the key to a successful KS campaign, imo. Not preparation or details or awesome vision of something cool, but selling what everyone instantly gets, wants, and can't get without KS. That's why DFA, WL2, PE, Elite, Planetary Annihilation, Shadowrun got over a million bucks with ease.

Failed KS like Thorvalla and Brenda' stupid game failed not because of the fatique but because they were way off the mark.

 

[Infinitron]

That's why DFA, WL2, PE, Elite, Planetary Annihilation, Shadowrun got over a million bucks with ease.

Define "with ease". Look at the amount of updates, interviews, etc. that Eternity had to put out to get 4/3 as much money as Wasteland 2, which had comparatively few updates (and still does). That's a lot of work, man.

 

[tuluse]

Obsidian actually did a reasonable job building up hype before launching the kickstarter. So they not have been on step 40 but it was atleast 5.

 

[Vault Dweller]

That's why DFA, WL2, PE, Elite, Planetary Annihilation, Shadowrun got over a million bucks with ease.

Define "with ease". Look at the amount of updates, interviews, etc. that Eternity had to put out to get 4/3 as much money as Wasteland 2, which had comparatively few updates (and still does). That's a lot of work, man.

Not what I meant. Of course, you have to do some work, updates, interviews and such. When I said ease I didn't mean that you can do fuck all and just watch the money flow into your account. I meant how fast money's flowing. PE hit 1 mil in a day, before a single update was made. Other projects did tons of update and hit a mil only at the end. That's the difference I was referring to. If Obsidian pulled their shit together and didn't waste time showing human fighters but showed something - I dunno - cool? they would have probably hit 6-7 mil. Basically, they didn't work the crowd at all. Took them 3 weeks to draw that single location which wet many a panty. Jesus... They should have been drawing this shit like crazy.

As for WL2, it had the brand behind it. If someone started a Star Wars RPG Kickstarter, it would have cleared 3 mil in the first day. At least.

 

[Infinitron]

Not what I meant. Of course, you have to do some work, updates, interviews and such. When I said ease I didn't mean that you can do fuck all and just watch the money flow into your account. I meant how fast money's flowing. PE hit 1 mil in a day, before a single update was made. Other projects did tons of update and hit a mil only at the end. That's the difference I was referring to.

Fair enough. Yes, obviously, the degree of "dreaminess" is what determines the order of magnitude of funding your project can get. But within that order of magnitude, at the margins, the pitch can change a lot. The difference between 3.5 million and 4 million is highly significant.

If Obsidian pulled their shit together and didn't waste time showing human fighters but showed something - I dunno - cool? they would have probably hit 6-7 mil. Basically, they didn't work the crowd at all. Took them 3 weeks to draw that single location which wet many a panty. Jesus... They should have been drawing this shit like crazy.

And AoD should have been out three years ago.

 

[Kane]

It's about the people behind the projects. If there is a name/icon behind the project and the project somehow correlates with what he/she has "done all along" people will buy into it. Fargo/OE are well known for their "RPG prowess". On the other hand, everyone wants a hardcore RTS from CT, something which he can't deliver on Kickstater money. Noone will walk up to him and demand "make me another aRPG."
I also feel that RPG as a genre has more general interest around it than RTS. There are so many escapists but only so little people that love executing a strategy. The sales figures of the past few years speak volumes, really.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Making a complex (number of options and paths) RPG by an inexperienced team is one thing. Drawing pretty pictures by experienced artists is another.

 

[DeepOcean]

That's why DFA, WL2, PE, Elite, Planetary Annihilation, Shadowrun got over a million bucks with ease.

Define "with ease". Look at the amount of updates, interviews, etc. that Eternity had to put out to get 4/3 as much money as Wasteland 2, which had comparatively few updates (and still does). That's a lot of work, man.

Not what I meant. Of course, you have to do some work, updates, interviews and such. When I said ease I didn't mean that you can do fuck all and just watch the money flow into your account. I meant how fast money's flowing. PE hit 1 mil in a day, before a single update was made. Other projects did tons of update and hit a mil only at the end. That's the difference I was referring to. If Obsidian pulled their shit together and didn't waste time showing human fighters but showed something - I dunno - cool? they would have probably hit 6-7 mil. Basically, they didn't work the crowd at all. Took them 3 weeks to draw that single location which wet many a panty. Jesus... They should have been drawing this shit like crazy.

As for WL2, it had the brand behind it. If someone started a Star Wars RPG Kickstarter, it would have cleared 3 mil in the first day. At least.

I don't know what Obsidian was thinking on starting the kickstarter on a friday, then releasing real updates only days after. They said that they didn't had any idead how successiful the project would be, yeah ... Torment/BG 2 spiritual successor with almost all senior Black Isle members involved, they still had doubts that it was going to be a success, so they could launch the kickstarter on a friday and take a weekend to relax? Man, Obsidian sometimes act in a way that appears that the left hand don't know what the right hand is doing.

 

[Infinitron]

They bought into the "Kickstarter fatigue" theory. All of them except Rob Nesler, IIRC.

 

[Wizfall]

Kickstarter fatigue is real but only concern smaller and not well known project.
PE campaign was incredibly bad indeed, quite amazing they put so little work in it.
I was seeing them having something like 6-7 millions too before the first update that show how pathetic the amount of though/work they have putted in preparing the campaign.
Amazing amateurism from pro.

 

[Vault Dweller]

You don't have to believe to be prepared. I mean, they did launch the fucking thing, didn't they? They did a count-down, a site, recorded the video, etc. Should have taken an extra step and prepared for the possibility that it's a smashing success. Good concept art is better than a generic "Ah... well, you know, you go out there and you give a 110%, and you wanna play good, and, you know, you hope you play good..." interview.

 

[Infinitron]

Kickstarter fatigue is real but only concern smaller and not well known project.
PE campaign was incredibly bad indeed, quite amazing they put so little work in it.
I was seeing them having something like 6-7 millions too before the first update that show how pathetic the amount of though/work they have putted in preparing the campaign.
Amazing amateurism from pro.

Oh god, not this conversation again. They pushed out interviews and updates almost daily, their campaign was not lazy. Compare their campaign, day-to-day, to Wasteland 2's and I guarantee you'll be shocked that Wasteland 2 got as much as it did.