Wildman Discussion Thread

[Mrowak]

Kickstarter fatigue is real but only concern smaller and not well known project.
PE campaign was incredibly bad indeed, quite amazing they put so little work in it.
I was seeing them having something like 6-7 millions too before the first update that show how pathetic the amount of though/work they have putted in preparing the campaign.
Amazing amateurism from pro.

Oh god, not this conversation again. They pushed out interviews and updates daily, their campaign was not lazy. Compare their campaign, day-to-day, to Wasteland 2's and you'll be shocked that Wasteland 2 got as much as it did.

He meant pre-planning.

 

[Vault Dweller]

It wasn't lazy, but the effort was misguided and they did lose the momentum at first.

 

[Infinitron]

they did lose the momentum at first.

Until I see it proven otherwise, I'm going to assume that all Kickstarters "lose their momentum".

We'll see how Torment does. Brother None has informed me that it will not have as many updates as Eternity did, because inXile doesn't have the manpower for that. It'll have more than Wasteland 2 did, though.

 

[Wizfall]

Yea pre planning.
Fucking 0 pre planning.
Sure they worked on it after but it was painfully obvious that was emergency work with absolute 0 planning.
Incredibly lame.
My brother who like cRPG without being a fan did not pledge because of how shitty it looks.
Call me like you want but they fucked up big time with only 4 millions.

 

[HobGoblin42]

Let's just wait for the Larian Divinity and the Torment Kickstarter campaigns. If they fail, the fatigue is real and this discussion comes to an end.

 

[Mrowak]

It wasn't lazy, but the effort was misguided and they did lose the momentum at first.

I don't think that's the case. P:E was so successful mainly because it was a spiritual successor of Planescape:Torment - at first - later they opted for BG2 route. Regardless, both games are recognisable and regarded as paragons of RPG greatness (by masses) and they are the first thing that crops into one's mind when you think about old-school RPGs. That was more than enough to prompt the rain of money on Obsidian. Add to that keywords and some quite famous names and you get the picture.

Initially more marketing was unnecessery, because "it was all (about selling) a dream". Obsidian was ingeniously vague about anything in the first stages - actually more info could have harmed the effort, because everyone would realise what they are paying for.

Now, "what they are paying for" is a significant problem, which some people began to recognise as the pitch went, whereby it became painfully apparent they were absolutely not prepared and were making up shit on the fly. Which was stuff you'd expect of some random amateurs as opposed to lvl 20 dev with Time Stop and Meteor.

I think general populace experienced a cold shower, and became more aware of what the really *need* from a pitch, and not only what they *want*.

Still, I am sure a sufficiently big name could ignite similar enthusiasm in Kickstarter campaign... but to somewhat lesser extent.

 

[Metro]

I don't know why people keep bringing up 'fatigue.' Good pitches of good looking projects succeed. Shitty pitches of shitty looking projects fail. Wildman was the latter.

 

[Wizfall]

Let's just wait for the Larian Divinity and the Torment Kickstarter campaigns. If they fail, the fatigue is real and this discussion comes to an end.

I think you can't compare the potential of a "BG 3" kikstarter made by Obsidan with those ones.
I don"t say they will not succeed, it's just another league IMHO.

 

[Infinitron]

Let's just wait for the Larian Divinity and the Torment Kickstarter campaigns. If they fail, the fatigue is real and this discussion comes to an end.

I think you can't compare the potential of a "BG 3" kikstarter made by Obsidan with those ones.
I don"t say they will not succeed, it's just another league IMHO.

A Torment sequel is definitely in BG3's league. See: Top five best-selling titles on GOG.com

 

[Metro]

Those won't fail. Will they net 500% of their asking amounts? Probably not.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I don't think that's the case. P:E was so successful mainly because it was a spiritual successor of Planescape:Torment - at first - later they opted for BG2 route.

?

It was advertised as a BG-like game from the start, which is why it was successful. BG games sold 3 million copies? How many did PST sell?

A Torment sequel is definitely in BG3's league. See: Top five best-selling titles on GOG.com

Means shit without the context of the actual number of copies sold.

 

[tuluse]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Witcher_2:_Assassins_of_Kings#Sales

This means PS:T has more than 40k sales on gog. Which is actually pretty damn good for a 15 year old game

 

[Infinitron]

Means shit without the context of the actual number of copies sold.

It's the only measure we've got. In any case, you ought to be pleased that Torment sells more than BG1.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Let's just wait for the Larian Divinity and the Torment Kickstarter campaigns. If they fail, the fatigue is real and this discussion comes to an end.

Not necessarily. Like I said, it's not about the pitch or effort, it's about offering what people want the most and can't get otherwise. The Divinity game sounds cool, but is it cool enough to warrant a KS success? Is a "turn-based co-op with preset characters" game want everyone wants? Could be another Wildman.

Torment 2 might do well not because it's a Torment game (whatever that is; Torment was great for one simple reason - Avellone, who's blessed with a gift, wrote it; whether or not it would be as good if some other guys write it remains to be seen) but because Fargo is clever when it comes to marketing and he tapped into already successful Numera KS.

 

[Vault Dweller]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Witcher_2:_Assassins_of_Kings#Sales

This means PS:T has more than 40k sales on gog. Which is actually pretty damn good for a 15 year old game

Indeed it is.

 

[Wizfall]

Let's just wait for the Larian Divinity and the Torment Kickstarter campaigns. If they fail, the fatigue is real and this discussion comes to an end.

I think you can't compare the potential of a "BG 3" kikstarter made by Obsidan with those ones.
I don"t say they will not succeed, it's just another league IMHO.

A Torment sequel is definitely in BG3's league. See: Top five best-selling titles on GOG.com

I could not back my claim but it's obvious to me that BG is hugely more popular than Planescape (i don't say it's better) for the mass market no matter the gog list.
I bet sales was much, much better at release at least.
Sure for hardcore cRPG gamer PST is easily in the same league, who could explain (along with BGEE release) the more elitist gog list.

 

[Infinitron]

I could not back my claim but it's obvious to me that BG is hugely more popular than Planescape (i don't say it's better) for the mass market no matter the gog list.
I bet sales was much, much better at release at least.
Sure for hardcore cRPG gamer PST is easily in the same league, who could explain (along with BGEE release) the more elitist gog list.

Sure, but who's talking about the mass market? This is the Kickstarter market. I don't think Kickstarter backers are less hardcore than GOG buyers. More likely the opposite.

Also, if 50k people bought PS:T on GOG, that's 50k potential Kickstarter backers for T:ToN. That's a lot of people.

 

[Mrowak]

I don't think that's the case. P:E was so successful mainly because it was a spiritual successor of Planescape:Torment - at first - later they opted for BG2 route.

?

It was advertised as a BG-like game from the start, which is why it was successful. BG games sold 3 million copies? How many did PST sell?

Not really. Initially people were all confused about what the game was supposed to be. There were numerous polls on the forums concerning that. My impressions was Obsidian threw Planescape:Torment as their initial draw (moral complexity! depth! storylines! souls! memorable NPCs!, "the developers of XX, YY and [chorus in the background] Planescape: Torment"). Then they sorta flipflopped to BG2.

Besides, you are vastly underestimating Planescape. It's a sort of game which failed in sales initially, but over years has become the model of what story-driven RPG should be and enjoys massive popularity these days. Go to the Bioware or CDPRed boards and drop the word "Planescape" - apart from some hopeless fanboys of said companies everyone will be at least familiar with it. Not only that - it will be a standard to aspire to.

But you are right - BG2 sold more, and thus it became what they are shooting for. Not that's a necesserily bad thing, mind you.

 

[Arkeus]

I think general populace experienced a cold shower, and became more aware of what the really *need* from a pitch, and not only what they *want*.

Still, I am sure a sufficiently big name could ignite similar enthusiasm in Kickstarter campaign... but to somewhat lesser extent.

Yeah, no.
P:E got more and more pledgers as the Kickstarter went on after the first lull once the couple first days were past. The end of P:E was pretty damn massive too, and they did continually give good PR and were on top of things by the end.

I am pretty sure that very few people got a 'cold shower' once the kickstarter finished. Sure, there were the good old Obsidian Order butthurts 'What? no exp per kills???', but apart from that things have sailed smoothly.

 

[Mrowak]

I think general populace experienced a cold shower, and became more aware of what the really *need* from a pitch, and not only what they *want*.

Still, I am sure a sufficiently big name could ignite similar enthusiasm in Kickstarter campaign... but to somewhat lesser extent.

Yeah, no.
P:E got more and more pledgers as the Kickstarter went on after the first lull once the couple first days were past. The end of P:E was pretty damn massive too, and they did continually give good PR and were on top of things by the end.

It depends what you mean by "good PR". If you mean it got them money then hell yes. If you mean it was honest and truthful, without beating about the bush, then hell no. Jesus, it creeps me out when I remember the time when half of the Codex went into defensive mode claiming "but they must have a plan, they are just not showing it!!111 That's their HOLY right!!11", and just after the campaign came to an end they went "well, they didn't have any plan at all... but they'll surely manage!!"

And in my post I meant that we began to experience Kickstarter fatigue after the campaign was over... No doubt the shortage of moneyz on such endeavours plays some major role.

 

[Infinitron]

The Codex isn't representative of the gaming community at large, Mrowak. It's not even representative of the "hardcore" gaming community at large.

 

[Kz3r0]

Let's just wait for the Larian Divinity and the Torment Kickstarter campaigns. If they fail, the fatigue is real and this discussion comes to an end.

1 million Larian.
5 millions Torment:Numerera.
Feel free to quote me on this.

 

[Arkeus]

It depends what you mean by "good PR". If you mean it got them money then hell yes. If you mean it was honest and truthful, without beating about the bush, then hell no. Jesus, it creeps me out when I remember the time when half of the Codex went into defensive mode claiming "but they must have a plan, they are just not showing it!!111 That's their HOLY right!!11", and just after the campaign came to an end they went "well, they didn't have any plan at all... but they'll surely manage!!"

I still say they had- and have- a plan. That the plan is not to your precise standards, great, but i believe it's there, and was there.

And in my post I meant that we began to experience Kickstarter fatigue after the campaign was over... No doubt the shortage of moneyz on such endeavours plays some major role.

The Codex isn't representative of the gaming community at large, Mrowak. It's not even representative of the "hardcore" gaming community at large.

Pretty much what Infinitron said here.

Thereh as been talk about "KS Fatigue" since way before PE, and each time a new title come around that sounds promising KS works again. I really doubt there is any 'KS Fatigue' as much as "waiting for a title that titillating our bones".

 

[Mrowak]

It depends what you mean by "good PR". If you mean it got them money then hell yes. If you mean it was honest and truthful, without beating about the bush, then hell no. Jesus, it creeps me out when I remember the time when half of the Codex went into defensive mode claiming "but they must have a plan, they are just not showing it!!111 That's their HOLY right!!11", and just after the campaign came to an end they went "well, they didn't have any plan at all... but they'll surely manage!!"

I still say they had- and have- a plan. That the plan is not to your precise standards, great, but i believe it's there, and was there.

Yes, and after the campaing they went into "pre-planning stage" just for giggles. It's actually Josh's words. A little bit later MCA said:

When you first announced the Kickstarter, you didn't really give any details. Was that a deliberate strategy, or where you actually making it up as you went along?

CA: To be honest, we had been working on elements of the title only a short time before the Kickstarter started, so there weren't actually that many details to reveal. We did have design time over the course of the Kickstarter to discuss those design ideas, we had design meetings, proposed the classes, discussed the system stuff.

There wasn't a huge extensive design doc before we started. There were just some basic principles for the kind of game we wanted to make, and then it just kind of developed over the course of the Kickstarter.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/182612/from_torment_to_eternity_chris_.php

 

[Wizfall]

Let's just wait for the Larian Divinity and the Torment Kickstarter campaigns. If they fail, the fatigue is real and this discussion comes to an end.

1 million Larian.
5 millions Torment:Numerera.
Feel free to quote me on this.

Sounds fun, maybe new thread ?(2 last pages a bit HS)
Really hard to guess before knowing the first pitch and the amount asked though
700 000 Larian
2,5 Torment (W2 imminent video demo will have an impact too)

Edit : That some people think there was any pre planning for PE is almost as unbelievable as the "on the fly" campaign itself. Took a closer look at the Top selling gog games, damn that would make overall a very good top PC games ! lot if incline !