Wizardry Wizardry 8 - first time playing

[Desiderius]

Any pure caster outperforms *either* Hybrids or Bishop with Powercast and 125 in School throughout the game. The purpose of Hybrids/Bishop is to cover all four.

If you want to munchkin it up play Elf and get Powercast ASAP. The spell schools can get awkward for awhile but it gets there by the time you join your raid group at endgame.

Early game is the hardest part anyway. Priest’s top end is a little narrow but by the time other classes are casting their top end spells at PL1 Priest is spamming lvl four spells at PL6 with high Power Cast.

And Pray for Miracle is the real deal all game.

 

[Desiderius]

Desiderius what's your worst class then?

None

When played well all have unique contributions they can make. There are no bad classes, only bad parties and even there they’re usually only bad in the sense of uninteresting.

I want access to all the schools since I like to be able to attack the low resistance on each foe and take advantage of all the resources the game has to offer. Likewise all the skills and the ability to effectively tank or attack at range as necessary, or to nuke when underleveled.

All Mage party can blow through the game nuking everything, but I find that trivial. The ability to nuke my way out of a tough spot using items and abilities that attack low resist is something I want in a resilient party.

Priest is both good for a newb and a good contributor to an expert party that knows how to get the most out of it. Same with Ranger.

 

[luj1]

Gadgeteer or w/e is called. Ranger too

 

[Iluvcheezcake]

Dunno what to tell you, played a balanced party first, then restarted with 6 bishops, went 100 in intellect and piety to unlock 2nd tier of skills, 1 round of aoe spells, especially that mind whip shit with stacking debuffs from alchemist school cleared shit FAST.

Another thing you guys keep forgetting telling the ndw player is that reaching 100 in a stat unlocks A 2ND TIER of skill.

 

[Desiderius]

Gadgeteer or w/e is called. Ranger too

Git gud

 

[jackofshadows]

Desiderius what's your worst class then?

None

That's a very unexpected answer from an autist, my respects. I agree that there's no bad classes, that's one of the game's virtues but some are generally better than others, that's how it is (look at fighter for instance). You can always try to utilize something better or find some synergies and unortodoxx ways of developing in this or that party - that's the core of the fucking game but that won't make a certain class better in a given (wiz 8) environment. Also no one was saying anything about race, it can be any. Stuff depends on run's loot too though but that's irrelevant to the general argument.

So yeah I say priest is the worst, then probably gadgie, then yeah ranger/ninja (despite my profound love for the latters).

 

[Desiderius]

Well then you’re wrong.

Happens

 

[Desiderius]

Of course race matters to class, since it determines when you can unlock elite skills.

 

[Desiderius]

There is no agenda. There’s no agreed-upon criteria for your ratings and if there were I could still blow you out of the water.

Priest buffs and debuffs make the whole party into Fighters since they skill-up so fast, and the protective buffs keep you alive long enough to nuke your way out if fighting too underleveled for the debuffs to land.

Of course once you know the game you rarely have to do that in the first place. You’re talking out of your ass.

 

[jackofshadows]

Your argument could be valid if priest has had unique magic book or something akin to that. Then we could've write it off to yeah this class seem weak but actually it's a support kind of class which adds enough strength to the whole party to justify its slot. But guess what? It's not. Unless we take into account seriously your other argument that early game is the hardest - then maybe but I don't think it's relevant even if it's actually true. The game is huge and there's plenty other hard parts other than the early game & early game isn't insanely hard so much so it *needs* the presence of priest or anything else.

 

[luj1]

Gadgeteer or w/e is called. Ranger too

Git gud

hahahah

this is a very ironic answer

first of all, no need to git gud... since you can beat the game with any class. The question was "worst class" and gadgeteer is probably the worst

second of all, If I remember correctly you got owned in KotC2. Now you are telling someone else to "git gud" in a game which isn't hard at all. I think you are the kind of guy to run away from hard games, and pretend that easy games are hard. You deserve to be spat in the face

 

[Poseidon00]

Thinking of making a party again. I have never finished this game, don't know why, I always enjoy it when I put in the time.

- Is there a way to start with another beginning other than the default, if I don't import a party? Just curious what the other starting points are like.

- If I had to choose between samurai and monk, what should I choose?

- What about between Ranger and Ninja?

I went with a magic-oriented samurai last time, and he was only just coming online by the time I was hitting level 12 or so. I have never made that class feel as good as I wanted it, but maybe I should just go all into combat and use magic as an afterthought.

 

[jackofshadows]

- If I had to choose between samurai and monk, what should I choose?

Depends on other party classes I'd say.

- What about between Ranger and Ninja?

The same

The thing is you can "plug" certain spell books via hybrid classes even though that isn't 100% necessary but that's a thing to consider among other stuff.

If you pick those for their non-magic ugg sides then pick what you want simply because "pure" classes will be stronger anyway.

 

[jungl]

I played through 2 parties. My very first party had vit up every level. Weak throughout most of the game untouchable near the end. decade later second playthrough I downloaded a mod where the drop rates for the rare items was 100%. I put stat points into offensive stats way stronger then vitality party even without the extra hp. Also op items like the laser sword and muramasa blade helped out too but still even without these items building your party offensive orientated is vastly superior.

 

[Desiderius]

If I remember correctly you got owned in KotC2

You don't.

Your argument could be valid if priest has had unique magic book or something akin to that.

It does. It skills up a party (much) faster than any other class since you're casting buffs and debuffs at higher PLs, plus it has better failsafes if you're tinmanning it. Casting Bless at high PLs in Monastery means that everybody leaves with Weapon skill over fifty. Bishop is slower to get there, and Lord much slower, same with Web (Roaches, including Gregor, are weak to Web, as are Savants) but that's tricky to get up super fast since Priest doesn't start with Earth Magic. Mage is better all-around debuffer/controller but doesn't have Bless, Armorplate, etc... and Knock Knock training is something I'm not interested in. Priest Earth goes up naturally with Armorplate and tops out with Falling Stars.

Take Make Wounds on Priest while letting Alch or Psi train up Divine with Healing. Single point nukes are really good early and situationally after.

Basically I optimize fewest reloads and most skill-ups per round of combat and Priest is good for that, but kind of contricts rest of party in a way that I don't usually bring one. But for a newb it's gold.

 

[cvv]

Pwned this game so hard I can’t even make myself play it now even though my boys love it.

Clearly as much as you've allegedly "pwned the game so hard" you've never tried a crit focused party because you're just spewing diarrhea.
"Crits suck with full party", "gadgeteer is good" wtf lol, gtfo you puffed up dildo.

 

[cvv]

Man, all that pleasant talk made me wanna play W8 again.

And then I remember the one second delay between enemy movements and the resulting desire to suicide myself by gulping down a bag of razors.

Maybe I'll give Wizards&Warriors another spin, haven't touched the game for more than 10 years now.

 

[Piotrovitz]

Your argument could be valid if priest has had unique magic book or something akin to that.

It does. It skills up a party (much) faster than any other class since you're casting buffs and debuffs at higher PLs, plus it has better failsafes if you're tinmanning it. Casting Bless at high PLs in Monastery means that everybody leaves with Weapon skill over fifty. Bishop is slower to get there, and Lord much slower, same with Web (Roaches, including Gregor, are weak to Web, as are Savants) but that's tricky to get up super fast since Priest doesn't start with Earth Magic. Mage is better all-around debuffer/controller but doesn't have Bless, Armorplate, etc... and Knock Knock training is something I'm not interested in. Priest Earth goes up naturally with Armorplate and tops out with Falling Stars.

Priest is a deadweight, no amount of reasoning can change that. Sure you can beat the game on hard/ironman with one in party, but it doesn't change the fact that Valk will do everything better.

Main problem is that he doesn't have enough unique/exclusive spells + the high level ones are utter shit.

- High lvl Bless can be casted by Bard from insturment you find at the very beginning. Unitl you find Haste drums this will be his first turn in every fight
- Armorplate is taken care of by Vi, or your own Valk. Sure it'll be casted on lower lvl than by pure Priest, but it's not a game changer, Plus it's out-of-combat buff, so earth realm will go up pretty fast. There's also a gadget but afaik it comes pretty late.
- Magic Screen can be taken care of by Bard, which will cast it on high lvl, or again by Valk. By the time that you'll really need it you'll be able to cast it on decent enough level.
- Soul Shield - this is the most tricky one, as you need either Psionic (another crappy class) or 2-school Bishop with psion spellbook. Bard NPC has insturment with it, but am not sure if you can steal it from him.

Beside those above you really don't need anything else. Superman is nice, but you'll find shitload of potions with it. Higher tier spells are utter shit.

 

[Darth Roxor]

I have no idea how anyone can claim Ranger is a bad class. Ranged criticals are an insane powerhouse late game because they have triple stacking of kill% together with arrows and bows. Add to that lots of attacks per turn with high accuracy even at long range and you have a Rapax meat machine on your hands.

Also the automatic search is simply a huge convenience.

 

[Piotrovitz]

Auto search would be good if you could find anything remotely useful with it, which is not the case 99% of the time

Late game ranger indeed is a crit machine, but he comes online, well, late.
2/3 of the game you're just carring around mediocre ranged char that doesn't contribute to overall dmg much.

 

[Snufkin]

Any pure caster outperforms *either* Hybrids or Bishop with Powercast and 125 in School throughout the game. The purpose of Hybrids/Bishop is to cover all four.

If you want to munchkin it up play Elf and get Powercast ASAP. The spell schools can get awkward for awhile but it gets there by the time you join your raid group at endgame.

Early game is the hardest part anyway. Priest’s top end is a little narrow but by the time other classes are casting their top end spells at PL6 Priest is spamming lvl four spells at PL6 with high Power Cast.

And Pray for Miracle is the real deal all game.

Worst class is Psionic.

Auto search would be good if you could find anything remotely useful with it, which is not the case 99% of the time

Late game ranger indeed is a crit machine, but he comes online, well, late.
2/3 of the game you're just carring around mediocre ranged char that doesn't contribute to overall dmg much.

If you craft tripple shot crossbow (or even double) and crank str+dex along with ranged combat and bow skills, he does work even early.

 

[luj1]

If I remember correctly you got owned in KotC2

You don't.

Nah I remember talking to you in the KotC2 thread, you were frustrated and ran back to shuffling presets in Pathfinder. You are a fake bitch

 

[Piotrovitz]

If you craft tripple shot crossbow (or even double) and crank str+dex along with ranged combat and bow skills, he does work even early.

You can do the same for you FIG/ROG/VALK with relatively same results.
The only trading card the RAN has are crits, and those come online late. For half of the game they're just too random/few and far between.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Priest is very good. Like I said Dracon for breaths and pray for miracle to preserve mana when not casting. Never ever use any weapon with your Priest.

It's like saying don't (consciously) use sling with your casters in BG. Duh. I'm not saying it's useless but the problem with priest it is only good in early game then it gets outperformed by any hybrid with divine magic if raised right. End of story. You can also use bishop(s).

It might get outperformed late game.
But the priest outperforms hybrids for at least 75% of the game because not only his divinity skill will level fast but he'll get top spells faster and will be able to spam high level spells.

It's less true for a priest than for a mage.
Still, a priest is hardly a deadweight except if you go with a small party.

Auto search would be good if you could find anything remotely useful with it, which is not the case 99% of the time

Late game ranger indeed is a crit machine, but he comes online, well, late.
2/3 of the game you're just carring around mediocre ranged char that doesn't contribute to overall dmg much.

What's fun is lightning strike, freeze spells and crits.
Backstabbing and berserk as well but thieves are squishy.
And having different classes/races combos.

Otherwise, everyone would play and enjoy Pillows of Eternity 2.

That said, besides "diversity" and fun moments, a Ranger will own ranged casters whom stay clear of your close combat & extended weapons and often your thrown weapons as well.
While your fighter, Bard or anything else will suck with any ranged weapon, your ranger will own anything in range with a bow.
Add a mage to the formula and you can start to get rid of ranged threats efficiently.

It's hardly a dead weight.
Less damage but ranger always has a target when others just skip their turns or often miss with their ranged weapon.

I rarely go without a ranger and a mage.

Of course, if you grind skills, everything works.
I don't, because as much as I love Wizardry 8, you don't want to double your battle encounters, there is enough of it already.

What you want to do is use chameleon and avoid encounters as much as possible to speed up travel in already explored areas.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Lots of usual nonsense posturing

Also:

Fighter, Bard, Gadge, Ranger, Priest, and Bishop probably best base party.

Make sure not to hit lvl six before leaving monastery.

I'm honestly low-key surprised by the amount of weird/bad takes itt.

Priest better than hybrids? I mean, the small niche of getting spells earlier is a thing, but divinity is really peculiar in how it functions compared to other books and benefits the least from it. Valk is also p much the perfect hybrid in how it not only gets the one book that fits hybrid concept the most, but also developing it barely slows her down.

And the same thing I always see about giving everyone ranged weapons, investing into reach melee etc. Wtf. Just use move command and cancel it ffs. Yeah, there will be a situation when a character "misses" an attack once in a couple dozen rounds, but does anyone actually think this warrants getting suboptimal equipment and burdening everyone with shitty ranged weapons that slow everyone down??

Everyone can crit with the right weapon. Choosing a hybrid and investing in critical strike is trading an enjoyable experience for a few lucky shots and a mythical endgame dominance, which a non-hybrid party will achieve anyways. 100 Critical strike is 5% crit rate. Ranger is the only good hybrid.

I mostly wanted to brofist this, but what is this last sentence about ranger being the only good hybrid. Wat.

Thinking of making a party again. I have never finished this game, don't know why, I always enjoy it when I put in the time.

- Is there a way to start with another beginning other than the default, if I don't import a party? Just curious what the other starting points are like.

- If I had to choose between samurai and monk, what should I choose?

- What about between Ranger and Ninja?

I went with a magic-oriented samurai last time, and he was only just coming online by the time I was hitting level 12 or so. I have never made that class feel as good as I wanted it, but maybe I should just go all into combat and use magic as an afterthought.

1. Nope. Don't get hang up on it, though. It really doesn't change much.
2. Impossible to answer without broader context. If you want to just relax and not think much about it, though, then monk. Both of its typical routes (unarmed and staves) develop nicely, naturally without meta and are pleasantly powerful throughout the game, has stealth (versus samurai being the squishiest of dedicated frontliners) and you can just forget about psionics and never feel like you've missed much.
3. None:p More seriously: if you want to get a decent mileage without dipping into meta, then definitely ranger.

Imo they key to enjoying the hybrids is to forget that they are hybrids. Just think about what you're expecting from their respective spell books first as there is going to be a big difference between all of them if you don't powertrain like a brain-damaged 'tard.

Ranged criticals are an insane powerhouse late game because they have triple stacking of kill% together with arrows and bows.

I have some doubts re whether it actually works like that after my last playthrough. At least the difference between that and just swinging a %kill melee weapon is not noticeable enough to make it a big thing. Plus, the bows you can get for a significant part of the game have a whooping 1% kill and the crit-enabling ammo is super rare and can only be purchased from Ferro if I'm not mistaken. So you have a long way to go to get a perfect end game scenario where you can have a very slightly better chance for a while than just Fang, Maenad's lance or even some fairly mid game melee weapons going brrrrrrrr without a care in the world. One of the multiple reasons going ranged in wiz8 just ain't that good.