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Wizardry Wizardry 8 - first time playing

Piotrovitz

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Consider running a Mook. There is a stupidly good sword only they can use. I ran 2 Mook Fighters in one game and they both had the sword. It was insane.
Never had a Mook in any of my parties:
1. They look like fucking gorillas, and I like my char portraits aesthetic.
2. Giant sword for Mooks is the similar gimmick as CoC for faerie ninja - OPd weapon that requires metagaming knowledge during party building. Not so much as with faerie, but still.
 

Darth Canoli

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sigard
You don't need a dedicated healer once you hit Arnika but you will have to save/rest often in the Monastery.

Your idea is interesting though, ninja, samourai, mage, psionic, ranger, last spot for a bard or an alchemist + Vi & RFS
 

jackofshadows

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I know that i want all hybrids:
I'am asking because i detest grinding and powertraining.
That... doesn't look good to me. Not that it's impossible to develop hybrids w/o powergaming but honestly, you're better off with completely another party of specialists. Based on taking VI and droid I'd say - priest, rogue, bard, wizard, ninja (suggesting dw throwing), alchemist/psionic and you're set.

If you're talking about simple portal spell 2-3 more than enough, don't worry about that.

Or you still can go as you wish, basically any party is viable in wiz 8 but prepare to meet some obstacles. It's not that
I have no intention to cast knock knock on door in arnika for 5 hours to make my hybrids good as casters...
bad but it's hard to rely exlusively on hybrids when it's comes to magic, w/o meta-knowledge, anyway.
I know that, but when I play Wiz 8, I want to LARP and see all my char's portraits for most of the time. I don't want human or dwarf looking face, knowing that in fact it's a fucking gorilla.
:lol::bro:
 

Piotrovitz

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how many portals are optimal? with 5 hybrids and 2 casters i will have 7 portals ( in theory ) . How many of them i really need?
Why the fuck would you need seven portals?
Also, I'm not even sure how could you reliably train hybrids to cast lvl 5 spells.
Portals are air domain spells, which beside missile shield and maybe shadow hound, don't have any other spells that can be reliably powerleveled outside of combat. This whole idea is ridiculous.

Two is enough - especially that one can lead you to HQ from which you can teleport to like four different places.
Wiz 8 world is not that big anyway.
 
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Darth Canoli

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Hybrids can cast portals, you just have to buy them a lot of air spells for MP because the spell is expensive.

Having 2 portals is absolutely necessary; one to the T'Rang teleporter, one for to use anywhere you want to return to; 3 is nice, you can have a permanent portal to Crock, 4 is a luxury.
 

coldcrow

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I have no intention to cast knock knock on door in arnika for 5 hours to make my hybrids good as casters...

So why do you want hybrids in the first place, then? If you want melee and spellcasting, just take specialist casters, and pump str + int, and put pts into combat skills. Though their progression in AR and attacks is slow, they will reach the maximum amount too. Worse weapons though, but powerful spells.

True Hybrids make sense if you use them for buffing and an opening salvo of the best spells (in party without a bishop), but then you have to powertrain them, else you'll spend ages in training combat vs lower lvl critters.
 

Zboj Lamignat

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Eh, that's some bizarre advice. Anyway, there are multiple reasons to use hybrids without magic: flavour, weapons/equipment, specials, criticals, skill bonuses, hp/stats, various unique utility they can add to the party. Also, divinity (especially) and wizardry (to a lesser extent, but still) work perfectly fine on a hybrid and add a lot of value with absolutely no power-training, extensive book feeding or any possible cheese. Alchemy and psionics much less so, but alchemy always has potion mixing. Psionics... yeah, let's not start another discussion about psionics, but that doesn't stop monk from being a very good class even if you ignore his spell book completely.

Oh, regarding lighting strike: I started another playthrough and literally just a couple of minutes ago encountered crusher crabs when going back to the monastery with the wheel key. Pressed move to get into range, moved and my samurai triggered a lighting strike instantly after moving, still within the same turn.
 

Piotrovitz

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Anyway, there are multiple reasons to use hybrids without magic: flavour, weapons/equipment, specials, criticals, skill bonuses, hp/stats, various unique utility they can add to the party.
Words of wisdom - the only hybrid that I ever bother to raise casting is Valk, since beside polearms and close combat she doesn't have anything worth pumping up (maybe bow). All the others are taken for flavour, especially Sam.

This of course applies if you are playing like a civilized man, i.e without spell grinding and rest-spamming. If you're one of those degenerates, then you can have fully developed hybrids who can both fight and are competent casters.
 

Zboj Lamignat

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For samurai and ranger/ninja I pretty much always bump to 15 for enchanted blade/missile shield and heavy potion mixing respectively to start getting good early mileage and avoid waiting eons until they rise to 15 by casting some shitty low level spell from time to time (particularly "hilarious" in case of samurai and constantly backfiring sleep), then leave them to slowly rise with usage. For monk I indeed usually not bother as I don't really see the point. It's not like pumping main casting skill + even some chosen element is a completely invalid build though, assuming you know what you're doing.

Skill cheesing is indeed degenerate - on this I agree 101%.
 

Piotrovitz

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[
I settled for:

1. Drac FGT - DW sword + diamond eyes
2. Drac FGT - Swords + ranged, will roll with 2Hander once I get some nice one
3. Furry ROG - no brainer, can't have any playthrough without this one
4. Human BAR - gonna stick her in the middle/back, pump throwing and stick to slings. I think it's better than another bow, and also never really fully tried slings. And there is some tempting stuff like rocket wrist or doubleshot one, and there are couple of really nice ammo (medusa/impaling/gold nuggets/ta-li) that I never used, since casters had always something to do. With high SPD and many attacks she should be able to KO the fuck out of everything while she's not playing magical banjo.
5. Elf Wiz 1> BIS - as always, wizardry + psionics
6. Elf ALC 1 > BIS - alchemy + divinity

So, what do you think about this, dinguses?

I know i just reached Arnika, but so far it's easy as fuck and I don't even have to be especially careful or use consumables/powders/bombs etc. This is not what I expected from ironman/expert :&

I'm thinking about restart and modify my party a little.
What do you think about FGT with polearms or staves?

Best polearms seem to be reserved for Lords/Valks, but there's Faust Halberd and Raven's Bill, which look pretty good on paper.
As for staves, there's not much goinf on - Bonebasher and Staff od Doom. It fucking sucks that even Ebon Staff is restricted to casters only.

Any wacky suboptimal ideas are more than welcome. Just no Mooks please.
 

coldcrow

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I admit, I am p. anal about efficiency in Wiz8.

Piotrovitz Well look at your party :) No hybrids = no weaklings in the beginning

h, that's some bizarre advice. Anyway, there are multiple reasons to use hybrids without magic: flavour, weapons/equipment, specials, criticals, skill bonuses, hp/stats, various unique utility they can add to the party.
All from a munchkin pov:
If you disregard spells, then their advantages pale if you compare them to the efficiency of a fighter.

- raw dmg the fighter alwayw wins, the very low critical chance the hybrids develop wont change that
- fighters can use more equipment than hybrids, cept for a few rare parts of gear
- skill bonuses are minor and offset by much better stats of the fighter, hybrids have always worse relevant stats
- fighter has the best HP/stats
- what utility does a hybrid add if you don't use them as a true hybrid??
- now their specials: Lightning Strike is basically another chance based form of Fighter Berserk, which is always on
Cheat Death is useful, Ranged Crits are only 5% at 100, Ninja thrown crits are useful (because they apply to melee too), Dmg Resistance is useful
Do they outweigh the inherent weaknesses? from a powergame perspective I'd say no.

Having said all that I like hybrid parties if you take the time to develop them fully. This thread made me start a new party with random_mod (more diverse loot): 2 Ninjas (staff/daggers), 2 Rangers (bows/modern), 2 Bishops.

Edit: Also as a plus, the fighter has the close combat bonus, which is usually the slowest skill to develop
 
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Incendax

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Jul 4, 2010
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Best polearms seem to be reserved for Lords/Valks, but there's Faust Halberd and Raven's Bill, which look pretty good on paper.
As for staves, there's not much goinf on - Bonebasher and Staff od Doom. It fucking sucks that even Ebon Staff is restricted to casters only.
That seems to be metagaming knowledge my good chap, fellow, buddy, pal.
 

Piotrovitz

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You got me bro.

The only thing in my defense is that after finishing game X times, you're starting to look for some different playthroughs, and in order to do that, you have to look up some stuff on the internet (unless you remember all the stats of all the gear you have found during those previous runs), e.g available weapons that will allow you to try some unconventional build.

I cannot see anything degrading by checking if there are any cool polearms or staves for fighters, if you don't remember that.
This won't make my party OPd like CoC, will just add some flavour.

Creating faerie ninja on the first run, or mook fighter - this is a sign of degeneration.
 
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Piotrovitz

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Fighter doesn't have too many skills to raise anyway, so slow natural close combat development doesn't mean shit.
It's still better to pump swords/maces/whatever, since I think that after reaching 50 it gives you another swing.
 

Piotrovitz

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Unless you will grind spellcasting on those hybrids, you may and will have serious problems with mid/late game caster mobs, which can CC the shit out of you and incapacitate your entire party in a single turn.

Constantly running magic screen (divinity spell/bard instrument) + first round casting of element shield (wizardry/alchemy spell) + soul shield (divinity/psionics spell) can really save your ass.

Unless you absolutely want to stick to this party, I would highly advise to immediately pump skill points in magic skills. If you're playing on easy or medium, then maybe magic screen provided by Vi would be enough. But then again, she won't go with you to Bayjin, where you encounter some of the most frustrating casters.
 

Johannes

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I played the game like 7 years ago, thinking about a 2nd run now. I barely remember shit about the details of the system though. Will I be able to gain exorbitant gold through alchemy with just a ranger, or do I need an alchemist proper for that? And how much of a nuisance is it to use the spell or manual searching to find shit, instead of the ranger autosearch? And what are the pros and cons of the various ranged weapon types, I could give the ranger a modern weapon and then ignore raising strength for example, or would that just suck compared to bows/xbows?


Thinking about

Mook Fighter
Dracon Rogue
Human Bard
Fairy Bishop (wiz/psi)
Hobbit Gadgeteer
Ranger of some kind, or alchemist

As you see there's no divinity caster there... I can pick the recruitable Valkyrie soon, or add priestly spells for the bishop, or both. But how much would I miss those spells if I just mostly skipped them? Learning the ones which have books available to the bishop, dont take away anything ofc, but then, would I want to cast them over the spells of schools the bishop's more trained in?


Or should I just play Grimoire instead
 

coldcrow

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Alchemist is one of the better classes. I'd take him. As a bonus you will have unlimited gold at alch 50.
Just add divinity to the bishop. If a spell appears in more than one book, he'll train the one with highest value. Modern weapons are ok-ish, hard to beat tripleshot xbow, though.
 

Piotrovitz

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Will I be able to gain exorbitant gold through alchemy with just a ranger, or do I need an alchemist proper for that?
I think the most profitable one is the pandemonium powder, which require easily found dusts and something like 50 in alchemy.
AFAIK Wiz enhanced (best and only worthy mod) severely reduces selling price of those powders, so no risk of breaking the economy, even if you lack self control

And how much of a nuisance is it to use the spell or manual searching to find shit, instead of the ranger autosearch?
You can easily find shit by searching manually - it usually is in obvious places, so you don't even have the search constantly turned on. Also, the shit you find via searching is usually worthless.

And what are the pros and cons of the various ranged weapon types, I could give the ranger a modern weapon and then ignore raising strength for example, or would that just suck compared to bows/xbows?
Modern weapons suck in this game, stick to bows/xbows - there is ammo with +% instakill chance, which stacks with your weapon and ranger instakill procs/

Thinking about

Mook Fighter
Dracon Rogue
Human Bard
Fairy Bishop (wiz/psi)
Hobbit Gadgeteer
Ranger of some kind, or alchemist

As you see there's no divinity caster there... I can pick the recruitable Valkyrie soon, or add priestly spells for the bishop, or both. But how much would I miss those spells if I just mostly skipped them? Learning the ones which have books available to the bishop, dont take away anything ofc, but then, would I want to cast them over the spells of schools the bishop's more trained in?
Pretty powergame'y party, you will mow through everything - even more if you build your bard as a melee and give him bloodlust. There's whole set of Bard-only armor which provides shitload of bonuses and resistances, not to mention some obscene stuff like ring of the road with +20 STR. And you can equip two of those.

Even without Valk NPC, you won't have any problem with missing divinity spellbook, as most of Gadgeteer stuff can cast most crucial div spells - armorplate, heal all, ressurection, guardian angel and superman.

Last slot is up to you, both are fine - I personally dislike rangers, since they do not crit often enough and every time I take one, he just ends up being average ranged dmg dealer.
Alchemist has quite a few spells that are usefull through all the game, like lvl 2 blinding flash. I especially like noxious fumes, which while deals average dmg, it often triggers nausea or even unconciousness. Cloud spells are nice too, especially if you anticipate longer fight. Anyway, your party is more than ok, and you can easily roll with those on expert.

Or should I just play Grimoire instead
I had couple of attempts at Grimoire, and as awesome as it is, there is something that makes me drop my playthrough at some point. I think it's mostly due to:
1. OPdness of lethal blow skill - you can get it on half of your party after like dozen hours into game, it rises on it's own pretty quickly, so after short time, you are insta-gibbing shit left and right.
2. Some of the puzzles are to cryptic - but this is just me being old or not putting enough dedication into game, like making notes and shit.
 

Johannes

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Hmm, I was thinking of giving Bloodlust to the thief, wouldn't it multiply the damage there even more since he deals more damage than the bard to start with, and doesn't take breaks for playing music? Or are berserk and backstab not multiplicative, or something?
 

coldcrow

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Oh, and for all interested in spreadsheets: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yNkklKuxwGQro4Zne13GtjF4Z4LYmaHJjZNXnkcJg6c/edit#gid=0
They are quite dated, some are correct though, mostly phys attack stuffs.

Also for those interested, the spell dmg formula:

DMG = spell dmg - (spelldmg * Final Resistance/100)

FR = (Effective Resistance/2) + (Random Roll between 0 and Effective Resistance/2) + (Random Roll between 0 and Effective Resistance/2)

ER = (Target Level - Spell Attack Strength) * 3 + Base Resistance ; must be >= 0

SAS = (1/4 * mana cost per powerlevel + 1/2 * level of spell + power level + 1/2 * caster level) * (1+powercast/100)


- low level spells lose their power (thats why those webs etc stop affecting high lvl critters with high resistances)
- effective resistance varies around base (bell curve between 50%-150% of base)
- Powercast at 100 doubles the spell attack value, making spells far more effective vs resistance
- Caster and target level matter alot

Example:
lvl 1 mage casting energy blast at plvl 1 SAS = 0.5+0.5+1+0.5=2.5
lvl 9 mage at plvl 6 SAS=0.5+0.5+6+4.5= 11.5

vs a crimson poppy lvl 9 with 45% res: ER for the fresh newb mage = (9-2.5)*3 + 45 = 64.5
the lvl 9 mage : ER = (9-11.5)*3+45 = 37.5

EDIT: Powercast also increases the duration of spells and strength of buffs, but strength very likely not past powerlevel 7 (conflicting reports).
 
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