Worst skills in RPGs

[Baron Dupek]

Inquisitor
We play as inquisitor
We have school of inquisitorial magic
first spell? Identification - works 100% from the get go
Which makes me wonder why there's "Identification" skill in the character sheet?

 

[Eirinjas]

Swimming in Deus Ex would have been okay, but they give you just enough rebreathers to explore all important underwater areas without investing a single skill point.

Also Aqualung at the start of the game.

They could have mitigated this by making rebreathers scarce at higher difficulty levels and/or adding extra friction to water.

 

[deuxhero]

There's actually just enough sections to maybe justify swimming to trained before Hong Kong (where there's two large underwater segments, one optional with good loot) and Ocean Lab. Swimming isn't alone in being completely useless past trained though, since the lockpick/electronics have massively diminished returns past trained. I'd argue Environmental Training is less useful than swimming: The increase isn't nearly as big, and there aren't enough of the useful ones to justify it.

Sniper/Slayer have much, much higher requirements than Living Anatomy (level 24 and 8 in two special stats). Bonus Ranged Damage is better for burst weapon users, but Living Anatomy is still very good, and the two/three stack. Edit: Living Anatomy also applies at a different point in damage calculations, making it more effective against armored foes.

I realize that sniper/slayer have the highest level requirements but then when you take either of them, your build is complete and you don't need a shitty +5 damage anymore/anyway. If anything, prior to that you'd want to pick something else which helps you to get there, like bonus move lets's say (to kite, to break line of sight etc) or bonus hp which is always useful. Or silent running. Or some atribute perks like sharpshooter or flat +1 bonus even. You also want to take for any ranged build prior to that better criticals, bonus rate of fire. Or 2 action boys/girls. Maybe pack rat. So you have this huge opportunity cost and there's just no room for a fucking +5 bonus damage. As for armored enemies. You want to crit them anyway so either use aimed shots/hits or get that slayer/sniper before meeting them and in those cases 5 dmg won't make a difference. Or at least take 3 more criticals idk if you ain't planning reach that lvl at all. In other words, pretty much anything is better until 24 lvl and then the game ends.

Fallout 2 has 70 perks. Might not be the top ten, but still one of the best.

Also Silent Running? I don't recall stealth being great in F2, as the areas where you'd want to sneak past enemies have narrow corridors you'd need to be within a couple of hexes of an enemy to get through. Did I miss something?

 

[NecroLord]

There's actually just enough sections to maybe justify swimming to trained before Hong Kong (where there's two large underwater segments, one optional with good loot) and Ocean Lab. Swimming isn't alone in being completely useless past trained though, since the lockpick/electronics have massively diminished returns past trained. I'd argue Environmental Training is less useful than swimming: The increase isn't nearly as big, and there aren't enough of the useful ones to justify it.

Sniper/Slayer have much, much higher requirements than Living Anatomy (level 24 and 8 in two special stats). Bonus Ranged Damage is better for burst weapon users, but Living Anatomy is still very good, and the two/three stack. Edit: Living Anatomy also applies at a different point in damage calculations, making it more effective against armored foes.

I realize that sniper/slayer have the highest level requirements but then when you take either of them, your build is complete and you don't need a shitty +5 damage anymore/anyway. If anything, prior to that you'd want to pick something else which helps you to get there, like bonus move lets's say (to kite, to break line of sight etc) or bonus hp which is always useful. Or silent running. Or some atribute perks like sharpshooter or flat +1 bonus even. You also want to take for any ranged build prior to that better criticals, bonus rate of fire. Or 2 action boys/girls. Maybe pack rat. So you have this huge opportunity cost and there's just no room for a fucking +5 bonus damage. As for armored enemies. You want to crit them anyway so either use aimed shots/hits or get that slayer/sniper before meeting them and in those cases 5 dmg won't make a difference. Or at least take 3 more criticals idk if you ain't planning reach that lvl at all. In other words, pretty much anything is better until 24 lvl and then the game ends.

Fallout 2 has 70 perks. Might not be the top ten, but still one of the best.

Also Silent Running? I don't recall stealth being great in F2, as the areas where you'd want to sneak past enemies have narrow corridors you'd need to be within a couple of hexes of an enemy to get through. Did I miss something?

Yeah, I almost always go to Trained in Swimming when playing Deus Ex. I usually have my inventory full and don't want to waste space on rebreathers.
In Fallout 2, ONLY pick the Bonus Ranged Damage perks if you are playing a Big Guns Burst Build (as I currently do on my last save file). That +2 (which becomes a +4) to damage applies to EVERY bullet you fire. Hence, Burst guns benefit the most out of these two perks.
Combine with Sniper and Better Criticals for serious carnage.

 

[Feyd Rautha]

Outdoorsman and traps in Fallout 1.

Outdoorsman gets really useful if you don't know what you're doing, as it speeds up your character on the world map.
A road that on outdoorsman 20 takes X time will take ~0.63X time on outdoorsman 91.

Thing is you can raise Outdoorsman sufficiently through books so there's no point putting points in it, that would be a waste.

 

[deuxhero]

Only in Fallout 1, unless you sequence break. There's 2 in Shady Sands, one in Junktown (which requires breaking into Killian's safe), and two for purchase in the Hub. Plus two in the Cathedral by which point the game is nearly over. Assuming starting value of 10, you get it to 27 in Shady Sands, and 40 once you buy both in the Hub. In Fallout 2 one book requires near metaknowledge and pickpocket, another requires high strength to open a Vault 8 door, and the two accessible ones wait till Redding, the bigger problem is that the Highwayman, lack of "no water" encounters, and lack of a time limit makes Outdoorsman far less important.

 

[Serus]

"Bad skills" are usually good ideas, just poorly implemented.

• Pickpocket - devs have to code a specific and rather complex mechanic that's not tied to core gameplay. They don't have time to do it properly, so they nerf it until it's useless.
• Traps - extremely difficult to balance, because it can either do no damage or kill the player instantly. Devs go with the safe option and make traps harmless.
• Barter - it's only balanced if the economy is balanced, which it rarely is, particularly in the late game.
• First Aid, Doctor, Restoration magic - useless if you have 50 potions in your inventory, something which is also tied with the economy.
• Poison/disease resistance- poisons are usually underwhelming for the same reason traps are; it's frustrating for casual players to die from poisoning without having antidotes in their inventory(or so the devs think). Even when poison can kill you, devs make sure there's always an antidote nearby.
• Diplomatic skills - either you have a one-size-fits-all skill like Speech in Fallout, in which case it's an obvious choice if you actually want to access all the content, or you have various skills like Etiquette or Intimidation which are used 3 times in the entire game. Having multiple skills requires meticulous balancing like in AoD, otherwise it doesn't work.

Basically : end thread. Those are the major ones. There maybe a few others, mentioned in this thread, but they are not so commonly found in CRPGs.

 

[Serus]

rhetoric/persuasion/speech/whatever

Only when it's a win button. I hate how speech skill was impelemented in New Vegas, where all you need is speech skill high enough to pass the treshhold(which is known to you).

Speech checks should be based on at least 2 attributes (for example inteligence + charisma or stength + wits) coupled with pesuasion/intimidate/rhetoric skills. Your PC shouldn't even be able to create same sentences if he doesn't have the right attributes, let alone passing skillcheck. Skillcheck should contain some element of uncertainty, so you could fail even tho your PC is good with words. It means that you could also critically succeed with Inteligent but less skilled character. Basically I want Fallout 1 system, it was closest to perfection for a computer game.

no, they should be erased from existence, or given a meagre exp reward for passing them as opposed to actual gameplay

Speech should be a part of gameplay, not a win button. There were some attempts to make it right. Fallout 1/2 got a good system and you were suppose to choose right answers, Disco Elysium got a cool Thoughts Cabinet that gives you an opportunity to build a specific character that reacts in a way you want. Even Deus Ex: Human Revolution tried to make it an actual gameplay with this:



Speech in crpg is neglected, but has a lot of potential to be entertaining.

disco shit isn't an rpg. delete your account

Oh, sorry. Forgot you are retarded.

Sorry to say that - but falling to such obvious trolling by someone like our little doggie is the retarded thing. Maxie just tries to hone his trolling skills.

 

[jackofshadows]

Fallout 2 has 70 perks. Might not be the top ten, but still one of the best.

Also Silent Running? I don't recall stealth being great in F2, as the areas where you'd want to sneak past enemies have narrow corridors you'd need to be within a couple of hexes of an enemy to get through. Did I miss something?

Well, if you put it that way then I agree sure but like I said, that doesn't mean much because it's suboptimal to take it before other ones till the end of the game, realistically speaking.

Stealth in fact is busted in F2, same as in F1 because it works in combat. Therefore silent running is useful to kite enemies or reatreating and ending combat w/o transition onto another map. I think because of that they made it in Arcanum so you can only run while in stealth only on the highest, master skill rank.

In Fallout 2 one book requires near metaknowledge and pickpocket, another requires high strength to open a Vault 8 door, and the two accessible ones wait till Redding, the bigger problem is that the Highwayman, lack of "no water" encounters, and lack of a time limit makes Outdoorsman far less important.

Yes and no since Enclave patrols can obliterate many, many chars until certain point. On the other hand, you can buy any amount of the books in SF stores.

 

[NecroLord]

Fallout 2 has 70 perks. Might not be the top ten, but still one of the best.

Also Silent Running? I don't recall stealth being great in F2, as the areas where you'd want to sneak past enemies have narrow corridors you'd need to be within a couple of hexes of an enemy to get through. Did I miss something?

Well, if you put it that way then I agree sure but like I said, that doesn't mean much because it's suboptimal to take it before other ones till the end of the game, realistically speaking.

Stealth in fact is busted in F2, same as in F1 because it works in combat. Therefore silent running is useful to kite enemies or reatreating and ending combat w/o transition onto another map. I think because of that they made it in Arcanum so you can only run while in stealth only on a highest, master skill rank.

In Fallout 2 one book requires near metaknowledge and pickpocket, another requires high strength to open a Vault 8 door, and the two accessible ones wait till Redding, the bigger problem is that the Highwayman, lack of "no water" encounters, and lack of a time limit makes Outdoorsman far less important.

Yes and no since Enclave patrols can obliterate many, many chars until certain point. On tthe other hand, you can buy any amount of the books in SF stores.

Yeah, the Enclave troopers can give even high level characters trouble...
Keeping your companions alive is hard, as you will probably lose some against the troopers.
Low sequence can also screw you big time, as the troopers can get two consecutive turns to massacre you and your party.

 

[Jigby]

Therefore silent running is useful to kite enemies or reatreating and ending combat w/o transition onto another map.

I don't really understand this one, there's no functional difference between running/walking while in combat. You can just kite by walking with sneak turned on. I think the only use Silent Running has in the game is if you're speedrunning - you can shave off a couple of seconds in Enclave by putting away the power armor and instead sneak run (power armor run animation is slower in realtime seconds than nonpower armor; but in Enclave you either wear power armor or sneak, hence Silent Running required for sneak run). Other than that, I agree with most of the things you said.

 

[jackofshadows]

there's no functional difference between running/walking while in combat.

I didn't know that, makes sense. Always assumed there's a penalty if walking with sneak in combat similiar as to when your leg is broken. But never actually tested - my bad.

 

[blessedCoffee]

Unarmed in Fallout 3 (yeah, I know). The scaling between 20 and 100 amounted to about 3-5 points of extra damage depending on weapon (bare hands got the least, power fists and deathclaw gauntlets got the "most"), but the Iron Fist perk, which had no required skill level, increased damage by a flat 5 points with 3 ranks, so the optimal unarmed setup was actually with minimal investment in the associated skill.

Champions: Return to Arms had elemental weapon buffs for the wizard class which was cool in theory, but the buffs were actually bugged and would override any enchantments or socketed effects the weapon already had and then would permanently remove those effects when the buff ran out.

Using unarmed characters were radiated poop, compared to how the skill was used in F2 – you can tell the developers didn't give a damn for players interested in focusing on this skill.

In F2 you can kick enemies balls with aimed attacks, resulting in hilarious float texts.
Face boxing stars in Reno, or a master and their many apprentices in San Fran ring. Or a muttie inside a NCR bar. To name some points of interest for unarmed builds, to gain exp./money.
Some NPCs will try to flee if you break their limbs, use this to your advantage during big battles.
You can destroy locked doors by kicking/punching them, in certain areas.
You can "dig" holes in the torso of everbody, if you take Bloody Mess. Even young humanoids (it's no surprise some regions didn't accept an uncensored Fallout 2).
Silent kills, with bare hands/feet, if you don't want to go guns blazing. Taking Slayer is not a bad idea, if that's up your alley (for more critical blows).
Jinxed & Unarmed go well together. You will not constantly run out of ammo because you failed in a roll check, friendly fire permanent/temporary companions, etc. Now that I think about it, it would probably be decent with Throwing, (if Throwing wasn't poop, that is), as well: Even if you explode the item on your hands, it should not be a significant loss (like destroying an alien blaster). If you haven't tried it, yet, give it a try.
I can see myself starting another playthrough, mainly using unarmed for combat. I can't say the same thing for Fallout 3.

 

[Silverfish]

Using unarmed characters were radiated poop, compared to how the skill was used in F2 – you can tell the developers didn't give a damn for players interested in focusing on this skill.

The skill itself is useless, but actual unarmed combat is pretty good in F3, though very limited compared to the examples you posted from F2. Since fatigue damage carried over from Morrowind and Oblivion, but was now tied to base damage, the iron fist perk led to a "KO, then pummel" style that left everything short of heavy guns in the dust in terms of dps.

 

[behold_a_man]

Outdoorsman and traps in Fallout 1.

Outdoorsman gets really useful if you don't know what you're doing, as it speeds up your character on the world map.
A road that on outdoorsman 20 takes X time will take ~0.63X time on outdoorsman 91.

Thing is you can raise Outdoorsman sufficiently through books so there's no point putting points in it, that would be a waste.

Same goes for small guns, first aid, repair, and science; boosting them is also quite useless (except science in Fallout 2, if you have the charisma above 2, and small guns, also in Fallout 2 - because there are no great remarkable using this skill in Fallout 1, moving it above 90 seems pretty suboptimal). Yet they are seldom mentioned as 'useless'.

 

[Zombra]

Thing is you can raise Outdoorsman sufficiently through books so there's no point putting points in it, that would be a waste.

This is weird thinking to me. "Once you've cleared every dungeon you can max the skill from items, so it's worthless to take before then" ? Bro, after you've cleared every dungeon ALL skills are worthless.

 

[NecroLord]

Unarmed in Fallout 3 (yeah, I know). The scaling between 20 and 100 amounted to about 3-5 points of extra damage depending on weapon (bare hands got the least, power fists and deathclaw gauntlets got the "most"), but the Iron Fist perk, which had no required skill level, increased damage by a flat 5 points with 3 ranks, so the optimal unarmed setup was actually with minimal investment in the associated skill.

Champions: Return to Arms had elemental weapon buffs for the wizard class which was cool in theory, but the buffs were actually bugged and would override any enchantments or socketed effects the weapon already had and then would permanently remove those effects when the buff ran out.

Using unarmed characters were radiated poop, compared to how the skill was used in F2 – you can tell the developers didn't give a damn for players interested in focusing on this skill.

In F2 you can kick enemies balls with aimed attacks, resulting in hilarious float texts.
Face boxing stars in Reno, or a master and their many apprentices in San Fran ring. Or a muttie inside a NCR bar. To name some points of interest for unarmed builds, to gain exp./money.
Some NPCs will try to flee if you break their limbs, use this to your advantage during big battles.
You can destroy locked doors by kicking/punching them, in certain areas.
You can "dig" holes in the torso of everbody, if you take Bloody Mess. Even young humanoids (it's no surprise some regions didn't accept an uncensored Fallout 2).
Silent kills, with bare hands/feet, if you don't want to go guns blazing. Taking Slayer is not a bad idea, if that's up your alley (for more critical blows).
Jinxed & Unarmed go well together. You will not constantly run out of ammo because you failed in a roll check, friendly fire permanent/temporary companions, etc. Now that I think about it, it would probably be decent with Throwing, (if Throwing wasn't poop, that is), as well: Even if you explode the item on your hands, it should not be a significant loss (like destroying an alien blaster). If you haven't tried it, yet, give it a try.
I can see myself starting another playthrough, mainly using unarmed for combat. I can't say the same thing for Fallout 3.

Be sure to take the Bonus Move perks.
You WILL need them to get close into melee.
Also, marauders and bandits in the Wasteland, who are mostly equipped with firearms, will really fuck you up before you even have a chance to get into melee. I would try to have a ranged weapon to fall back on if things get out of hand (and they often will)...

 

[Feyd Rautha]

Thing is you can raise Outdoorsman sufficiently through books so there's no point putting points in it, that would be a waste.

This is weird thinking to me. "Once you've cleared every dungeon you can max the skill from items, so it's worthless to take before then" ? Bro, after you've cleared every dungeon ALL skills are worthless.

The difficult world map encounters comes later so it's safe to go without Outdoorsman and then buy a couple of books in the Hub to get sufficient points.

As you can see I write about a specific skill in a specific game and I'm not saying anything general.

 

[blessedCoffee]

Unarmed in Fallout 3 (yeah, I know). The scaling between 20 and 100 amounted to about 3-5 points of extra damage depending on weapon (bare hands got the least, power fists and deathclaw gauntlets got the "most"), but the Iron Fist perk, which had no required skill level, increased damage by a flat 5 points with 3 ranks, so the optimal unarmed setup was actually with minimal investment in the associated skill.

Champions: Return to Arms had elemental weapon buffs for the wizard class which was cool in theory, but the buffs were actually bugged and would override any enchantments or socketed effects the weapon already had and then would permanently remove those effects when the buff ran out.

Using unarmed characters were radiated poop, compared to how the skill was used in F2 – you can tell the developers didn't give a damn for players interested in focusing on this skill.

In F2 you can kick enemies balls with aimed attacks, resulting in hilarious float texts.
Face boxing stars in Reno, or a master and their many apprentices in San Fran ring. Or a muttie inside a NCR bar. To name some points of interest for unarmed builds, to gain exp./money.
Some NPCs will try to flee if you break their limbs, use this to your advantage during big battles.
You can destroy locked doors by kicking/punching them, in certain areas.
You can "dig" holes in the torso of everbody, if you take Bloody Mess. Even young humanoids (it's no surprise some regions didn't accept an uncensored Fallout 2).
Silent kills, with bare hands/feet, if you don't want to go guns blazing. Taking Slayer is not a bad idea, if that's up your alley (for more critical blows).
Jinxed & Unarmed go well together. You will not constantly run out of ammo because you failed in a roll check, friendly fire permanent/temporary companions, etc. Now that I think about it, it would probably be decent with Throwing, (if Throwing wasn't poop, that is), as well: Even if you explode the item on your hands, it should not be a significant loss (like destroying an alien blaster). If you haven't tried it, yet, give it a try.
I can see myself starting another playthrough, mainly using unarmed for combat. I can't say the same thing for Fallout 3.

Be sure to take the Bonus Move perks.
You WILL need them to get close into melee.
Also, marauders and bandits in the Wasteland, who are mostly equipped with firearms, will really fuck you up before you even have a chance to get into melee. I would try to have a ranged weapon to fall back on if things get out of hand (and they often will)...

I feel you, high agility and bonus move are quite favorable in such a character build. And drugs (like Jet) for the extra APs during battles.
But I'll probably force some followers to use firearms, and hopefully the AI will have them as their priority once they pull the trigger, instead of me. If I remember correctly, the NPCs will target whoemever inflicted damage to them, if they're brave enough (some characters are too coward to do so).
I feel it defeats the purpose of a close-combat build, if I start shooting guns to deal with my foes. My idea is to bring a few companions with me, and maybe pick the Mysterious Stranger perk to help in random encounters.

 

[NecroLord]

Unarmed in Fallout 3 (yeah, I know). The scaling between 20 and 100 amounted to about 3-5 points of extra damage depending on weapon (bare hands got the least, power fists and deathclaw gauntlets got the "most"), but the Iron Fist perk, which had no required skill level, increased damage by a flat 5 points with 3 ranks, so the optimal unarmed setup was actually with minimal investment in the associated skill.

Champions: Return to Arms had elemental weapon buffs for the wizard class which was cool in theory, but the buffs were actually bugged and would override any enchantments or socketed effects the weapon already had and then would permanently remove those effects when the buff ran out.

Using unarmed characters were radiated poop, compared to how the skill was used in F2 – you can tell the developers didn't give a damn for players interested in focusing on this skill.

In F2 you can kick enemies balls with aimed attacks, resulting in hilarious float texts.
Face boxing stars in Reno, or a master and their many apprentices in San Fran ring. Or a muttie inside a NCR bar. To name some points of interest for unarmed builds, to gain exp./money.
Some NPCs will try to flee if you break their limbs, use this to your advantage during big battles.
You can destroy locked doors by kicking/punching them, in certain areas.
You can "dig" holes in the torso of everbody, if you take Bloody Mess. Even young humanoids (it's no surprise some regions didn't accept an uncensored Fallout 2).
Silent kills, with bare hands/feet, if you don't want to go guns blazing. Taking Slayer is not a bad idea, if that's up your alley (for more critical blows).
Jinxed & Unarmed go well together. You will not constantly run out of ammo because you failed in a roll check, friendly fire permanent/temporary companions, etc. Now that I think about it, it would probably be decent with Throwing, (if Throwing wasn't poop, that is), as well: Even if you explode the item on your hands, it should not be a significant loss (like destroying an alien blaster). If you haven't tried it, yet, give it a try.
I can see myself starting another playthrough, mainly using unarmed for combat. I can't say the same thing for Fallout 3.

Be sure to take the Bonus Move perks.
You WILL need them to get close into melee.
Also, marauders and bandits in the Wasteland, who are mostly equipped with firearms, will really fuck you up before you even have a chance to get into melee. I would try to have a ranged weapon to fall back on if things get out of hand (and they often will)...

I feel you, high agility and bonus move are quite favorable in such a character build. And drugs (like Jet) for the extra APs during battles.
But I'll probably force some followers to use firearms, and hopefully the AI will have them as their priority once they pull the trigger, instead of me. If I remember correctly, the NPCs will target whoemever inflicted damage to them, if they're brave enough (some characters are too coward to do so).
I feel it defeats the purpose of a close-combat build, if I start shooting guns to deal with my foes. My idea is to bring a few companions with me, and maybe pick the Mysterious Stranger perk to help in random encounters.

Pick Cassidy and Marcus (just don't give him a Burst Big Gun).
Cat Jules (you can find him in the EPA) is another great companion (he can use pretty much all guns quite effectively, Small Guns, Energy Weapons and Big Guns, but he specializes in Energy Weapons).

 

[Zombra]

The difficult world map encounters comes later so it's safe to go without Outdoorsman and then buy a couple of books in the Hub tinget sufficient points.
As you can see I write about a specific skill in a specific game and I'm not saying anything general.

Sensible enough. I still resist the assertion that this skill is "the worst" because it's possible to complete the game without investing in it. Again that's true of every skill.

 

[kroki]

pickpocket. the only game where it was properly implemented was gothic 2 of all things. in every other game its quick load: the skill

 

[Butter]

pickpocket. the only game where it was properly implemented was gothic 2 of all things. in every other game its quick load: the skill

Underrail.

 

[Storyfag]

I hate it when you can pretty easily craft OP gear that shits all over most unique gear of legendary status in a game. Oh, look, I just found "Epic Legendary Doom Blade of Utter Destruction", but unfortunately it does less damage than my "Self-Made Pointy Stick" I made 5 minutes ago. Totally breaks immersion.

Yeah, I also found that element of The Witcher 3 to be ridiculous.

 

[Desiderius]

The Realms of Arkania games included various skills that were present in DSA, but made them either literally useless or nearly useless. If you take Seduce or Animal Lore or Geography or Dance, you're playing the wrong game.

Made some decent cash (needed at low level) with Dance when replaying RoA I a couple of years ago. Feel like Seduce might have come up too. Certain skills are essentially a free roll for each class and I played some uncommon ones for fun.

Bigger problem is that half the spells don't work.