Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Vapourware WOTC restricting content creation in new OGL - Paizo launches competing OGL - lol cancelled

Orud

Scholar
Patron
Joined
May 2, 2021
Messages
1,119
Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming!
I'm getting a kick out of all the YouTubers freaking out over this while remaining ignorant of the law. They are under the impression that Wizards can actually copyright rules, stats, etc... I laugh every time I see a Zoomer or Millennial post their retarded takes on the matter.

The ones that really make me laugh and cringe at the same time are so-called lawyers.
That's the weird thing about this, the large players will just blow this off as you said. It's the small guys and the community efforts that won't be able to defend themselves simply due to the cost of litigation.

All they seem to be trying to do is setup a framework to bully their community and small partners in order to outright steal their ideas. They're not going after "Critical Role" and "Paizo", they're going after future "Paizo's" and "Critical Roles".

Anyone invested in D&D (that has more aspirations than being a consumer) should honestly distance themselves from it, sadly.
 

JamesDixon

GM Extraordinaire
Patron
Dumbfuck
Joined
Jul 29, 2015
Messages
11,310
Location
In the ether
Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut
I'm getting a kick out of all the YouTubers freaking out over this while remaining ignorant of the law. They are under the impression that Wizards can actually copyright rules, stats, etc... I laugh every time I see a Zoomer or Millennial post their retarded takes on the matter.

The ones that really make me laugh and cringe at the same time are so-called lawyers.
That's the weird thing about this, the large players will just blow this off as you said. It's the small guys and the community efforts that won't be able to defend themselves simply due to the cost of litigation.

All they seem to be trying to do is setup a framework to bully their community and small partners in order to outright steal their ideas. They're not going after "Critical Role" and "Paizo", they're going after future "Paizo's" and "Critical Roles".

The difference between what TSR did in the 1990s and today is that people are kickstarting legal costs to defend against large companies abusing their position. There is also the matter of the news and it won't look good for Hasbro to go after small studios while abusing their position.

But your analysis is sound on them going after the smaller guys.
 

RPK

Scholar
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Messages
342
Kobold Press today announced they are done with OGL content and are creating their own system. They are not huge per se, but they are not tiny either. They could be this generation's Paizo.
 

Noct

Literate
Joined
Oct 1, 2022
Messages
24
Honest question: if you can't copyright game rules/stats/etc and the license already doesn't allow you to use original WotC intellectual property, what exactly are you licensing under the OGL?
 

Acrux

Arcane
Joined
Jul 1, 2019
Messages
1,489
That's been the big secret the whole time. It's a contract that's explicitly not enforcing things that are unenforceable.

The real goal was to promote a 3rd party ecosystem, for better or worse.
 

JamesDixon

GM Extraordinaire
Patron
Dumbfuck
Joined
Jul 29, 2015
Messages
11,310
Location
In the ether
Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut
Honest question: if you can't copyright game rules/stats/etc and the license already doesn't allow you to use original WotC intellectual property, what exactly are you licensing under the OGL?

Nothing is what you're licensing. What you're giving up is control over your works and helping Wizards in their claim that they own the copyrights to the game mechanics etc...
 

Noct

Literate
Joined
Oct 1, 2022
Messages
24
Honest question: if you can't copyright game rules/stats/etc and the license already doesn't allow you to use original WotC intellectual property, what exactly are you licensing under the OGL?

Nothing is what you're licensing. What you're giving up is control over your works and helping Wizards in their claim that they own the copyrights to the game mechanics etc...
I suspected as much but I figured I would get a second opinion. Now I can go full schizo and assert that the OGL is a conspiracy theory and does not exist
 

JamesDixon

GM Extraordinaire
Patron
Dumbfuck
Joined
Jul 29, 2015
Messages
11,310
Location
In the ether
Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut
Honest question: if you can't copyright game rules/stats/etc and the license already doesn't allow you to use original WotC intellectual property, what exactly are you licensing under the OGL?

Nothing is what you're licensing. What you're giving up is control over your works and helping Wizards in their claim that they own the copyrights to the game mechanics etc...
I suspected as much but I figured I would get a second opinion. Now I can go full schizo and assert that the OGL is a conspiracy theory and does not exist
Well OGL came about because of TSR's CEO Lorraine Williams got it into her head to sue fan websites for violating copyright and she was warned to not do it. By her actions, she caused a massive boycott amidst the buyback of unsold books that caused the company to collapse. Wizards made the OGL as a peace offering to the players in order to get them back into the folds.

Lorraine's actions caused the fans to say that TSR stood for They Sue Regularly.
 
Last edited:

Grauken

Gourd vibes only
Patron
Joined
Mar 22, 2013
Messages
12,807
WOTC all like


cCVqHor.jpg
 

Andhaira

Arcane
Joined
Nov 25, 2007
Messages
1,869,015
https://arbiterofworlds.substack.com/p/the-perfidious-treachery-of-wotc

The Perfidious Treachery of WOTC​

Does OGL 1.1 Mean the End of Open Gaming?​


For the last 12 years, my company Autarch has published my game Adventurer Conqueror King System under the terms of the Open Game License (OGL) 1.0. For the last 5 years, ACKS has been my full-time job.

Now, Wizards of the Coast, in what I can only describe as an act of perfidious treachery, has decided to retroactively deauthorize the OGL 1.0 and offer up a new Open Game License 1.1 to replace it.


What does this new license mean? Where do we go from here? Before we go further, please note that while I am a trained attorney (Harvard Law magna cum laude, in fact), I’m not a practicing intellectual property specialist. My thoughts should not be construed as legal advice about what you should do. These are just my thoughts about the situation Autarch has now found itself in, and what we need to do.

Can They Really Do That?!​

When people learn that WOTC is deauthorizing the OGL, the first question they ask is “can they really do that?” It’s a fair question. After all, for more than 20 years we’ve all relied on the OGL to be irrevocable.

But the question isn’t whether they can do. They are doing it. Right now, on our watch. No, the question is “who is going to stop them from doing it?”

And the answer might be “no one.”

If you’re under the illusion that we live in a country with a court system that rewards the righteous, allow me to disabuse you of that notion. The American justice system is pay-to-play, and the amount you have to pay is unfathomable to those who haven’t gone through it. I consulted with one of New York’s top IP litigators last week to find out how much money I’d have to raise via GoFundMe to fight Wizards. When I asked him if $100,000 would be enough, he laughed. He said I’d need $500,000 to even have a chance of summary judgment, and $4 million for a trial. Wizards has a war chest measured in millions and will fight this out for 4-6 years.

Imagine if WOTC sued Autarch claiming that my game Ascendant was violating their copyright. Ascendant is a d100 superhero game that has nothing in common with D&D and uses no language from the SRD. WOTC would have legitimate claim whatsoever. If we had $4,000,000 to fight, we’d certainly win. But… we don’t have the money. So, we’d lose.

In real life courtroom dramas, the good guys don’t win. The rich guys win.

But Our Rich Guys Will Fight… Won’t They?​

We do have a few “rich guys” that are affected by this situation, foremost among them the mighty Paizo. The OGL 1.1 is certainly an existential threat to Paizo’s business. But does that mean Paizo will litigate?

We can certainly hope so. They would be the greatest champions of the Open Gaming movement if they did. Lisa Stevens is a person of great integrity who has dealt with treachery from WOTC before. Erik Mona has a warriors ethos that has stood him in good stead in the struggle against WOTC. Few people can claim to have beaten WOTC at their own game!

Even so, we cannot be certain that Paizo will fight. In most cases, major companies work very hard to avoid law suits with their well-funded competitors; and even when there are lawsuits, they usually get settled privately in ways that don’t help or affect anyone else.

Imagine this hypothetical: Paizo files a lawsuit against Wizards. A year later, after about $500,000 of expense on motions, they begin to proceed to trial. Their lawyers estimate they have a 70% chance to win. At this point, WOTC now offers to settle, offering Paizo a perpetual irrevocable license for the 3.5E SRD in exchange for Paizo’s agreement not to exploit the 5.1 SRD in any way and other minor concessions. If you’re Paizo, do you spend another $3.5 million and 3 years in trial for a 70% win — or do you take that deal?

Most companies take that deal.

For similar reasons, we can ask whether Disney is really going to litigate with Hasbro over the KOTOR videogame from years ago. I, for one, doubt it. Any differences of opinion between Disney and Hasbro will probably just get worked out by some whiteshoe lawyers in private deals.

So we cannot rely on the hope that some rich litigator, some hero, is coming to save open gaming. We have to assume no one is coming to save us. Perhaps, given sufficient numbers, we could assemble a class action — but how many companies would still be alive after 2, 3, 4 years of being unable to safely invest in new product? Because according to Wizard, if you litigate with them, you immediately lose your license.

But WOTC Can’t Sue Everybody!​

Many people believe that small independent studio won’t be affected because they can avoid being noticed. “WOTC can’t sue everybody,” they assert.

Allow me to disabuse you of this notion, too.

WOTC doesn’t have to sue everybody. All they need to do is to persuade the gatekeepers — Kickstarter, IndieGoGo, DriveThruRPG, Amazon, and a handful of other companies — that they are better off cooperating with WOTC than opposing it. Then the gatekeepers will deplatform us when WOTC tells them to.

Think of how easy it is to get de-platformed on YouTube if we use a string of music that’s a little too long, and it gets flagged by Warner Music. Think of how little recourse we have if Nintendo decides our Twitch stream violates their IP. The world we live in is one of centralized corporate control. They don’t have to litigate against us. They can simply wall us off, and leave it to us to sue them — which we cannot afford to do.

WOTC are Idiots If They Think This Will Work!​

Another common refrain I’m hearing in the tabletop RPG community is “WOTC are idiots if they think this will work!” Do not make the error of underestimating your enemy. The Vice President and Chief of Staff to Hasbro is a man named Nicholas Mitchell. He spent 11 years as head of legal for Wizards of the Coast. Before that he was a law professor for 11 years specializing in intellectual property licensing. And before that he was an attorney for 3 years at Hughes Media Law Group. That’s 25 years of experience in intellectual property law. In short, Mr. Mitchell is as far from “idiot” as it comes. Whatever fancy legal claims may arise on Reddit (promissory estoppel, etc.), we can be certain he’s already thought about how he’ll handle it.

The New License Can’t Be That Bad, Though?​

Since word first began to trickle out that the OGL was being changed, pro-WOTC pundits on the web have urged us to stay calm and not rush to judgment. “The new license won’t be that bad, they just want to take back control of their IP from people abusing the OGL.” Well, now the complete text of the OGL 1.1 has leaked. No, it’s not as bad as we thought — it’s much worse.

Let’s look at a few of the most awful terms found in this utterly egregious agreement:

A. Modification: This agreement is… an update to the previously available OGL 1.0(a), which is no longer an authorized license agreement. We can modify or terminate this agreement for any reason whatsoever, provided We give thirty days’ notice. We will provide notice of any such changes by posting the revisions on Our website and by making public announcements of the changes through Our social media channels.
In this paragraph, WOTC is explicitly deauthorizing the OGL 1.0. Worse, they’re asserting the right to modify or terminate OGL 1.1 in the future without cause with just 30 days notice. Can we build a business on a license that can be withdrawn with a month’s notice? No, we cannot.

What if I don’t like these terms and don’t agree to the OGL: Commercial?
That’s fine – it just means that you cannot earn income from any SRD-based D&D content you create on or after January 13, 2023, and you will need to either operate under the new OGL: NonCommercial or strike a custom direct deal with Wizards of the Coast for your project. But if you want to publish SRD-based content on or after January 13, 2023 and commercialize it, your only option is to agree to the OGL: Commercial.
This clause is intended to be reassuring, but it’s anything but. Read the first sentence: "you cannot earn income from any SRD-based D&D content you create on or after January 13, 2023.” Now read the last sentence: “If you want to publish SRD-based content on or after January 13, 2023, your only option is to agree.”

Creating content and publishing content are not the same thing. The way this statement is phrased, WOTC has left it very unclear whether game studios can continue to publish works made under OGL 1.0. The first sentence suggests “yes, you can,” but the last sentence says “no, you can’t.” Until WOTC clarifies its intent, we can’t know for sure. Given how egregious the rest of the terms are, though, I’m not inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt. WOTC could be taking the position that no one is able to publish even existing OGL 1.0 material after the 13th.

Licensed Work includes Licensed Content (what used to be called “Open Game Content”). If the only way a reader can distinguish what You created from what We did is to check Your Licensed Work against the SRD, You are not in compliance with this provision.
In this provision WOTC is demanding that we index and identify every piece of Licensed Content that you use. Given that much of the Licensed Content is entirely embedded in the very vocabulary of RPGs, this is essentially impossible to comply with. I think its designed to be impossible. And that’s unfortunate because it means they can probably terminate us without 30 days notice…

i. We may terminate the agreement immediately if:
a. You infringe upon or misuse any of Our intellectual property, violate any law in relation to Your activities under this agreement, or if We determine in Our sole discretion that You have violated Section VIII.G or VIII.H. To be clear, We have the sole right to decide what conduct violates Section VIII.G or Section VIII.H and You covenant and agree that You will not contest any such determination via any suit or other legal action. To the extent necessary and allowed by law, You waive any duty of good faith and fair dealing We would otherwise have in making any such determination.
b. You breach any other term or condition in this agreement, and that breach is not cured within 30 days of Our providing You notice of the breach by communicating with You as provided in Section VIII.A.
c. You bring an action challenging Our ownership of the Licensed Content, Unlicensed Content, or any patent or trademark owned by Wizards of the Coast.
We know this may come off strong, but this is important: If You attempt to use the OGL as a basis to release blatantly racist, sexist, homophobic, trans-phobic, bigoted or otherwise discriminatory content, or do anything We think triggers these provisions, Your content is no longer licensed.
Here WOTC is asserting the right to retroactively decide that any piece of content we’ve ever made can be dubbed problematic and therefore in violation of the license. They also retain the exclusive right to make this determination, and demand we waive our right to contest their decisions legally. And if we do file a lawsuit, they make that a breach of the license. This is utterly destructive for the Open Gaming movement: No one can safely invest in developing content if under the risk of total obliteration at any time.

Not Usable D&D Content (“Unlicensed Content”) – This is Dungeons & Dragons content that has been or later will be produced as “official” – that is, released by Wizards of the Coast or any of its predecessors or successors – and is not present in the SRD v. 5.1.
Here Wizards is asserting that the existing 3.0E, 3.5E, and 5.0 SRDs are no longer open game content! How this interacts with the deauthorization of OGL 1.0 isn’t clear, but it certainly suggests that they are planning a hardline stance. They also specifically call out “content that has been…produced by… its predecessors”, e.g. the old stuff by TSR, as being unlicensed content. This is a salvo fired at Pathfinder and the entire OSR movement.

To be clear, OGL: Commercial only allows for creation of roleplaying games and supplements in printed media and static electronic file formats. It does not allow for anything else, including but not limited to things like videos, virtual tabletops or VTT campaigns, computer games, novels, apps, graphics novels, music, songs, dances, and pantomimes.
At the time this was written, a game studio had just finished developed a computer game version of Autarch’s Domains at War, our OGL mass combat system. This provision puts that entire project in jeopardy, and the projects of virtually ever VTT, YouTube, and Patreon creator around. Again, an unconscionable change of the rules of doing business.

VIII. FUNDRAISING. We don’t object to You crowdfunding for Your Licensed Works, but We need to address concerns about overreaching and prevent the funding of infringing products. Because of that, this section has very specific requirements. If You are planning on crowdfunding, You must read this whole section carefully, and be sure You are fully compliant with it.
A. You may crowdfund, provided:
i. You may only crowdfund the production of Licensed Works.
ii. No infringing materials are given out as perks or rewards.
B. The primary product for Your campaign must be a Licensed Work, such as a campaign setting. You may have stretch goals that are not Licensed Works, provided they do not infringe upon Our intellectual property.
C. Your entire campaign, including stretch goals, is considered one product for the purposes of the royalty threshold.
Read that again. WOTC is asserting that if you sign OGL 1.1, you may only crowdfund Licensed Works. This clause does not say “If your crowdfunding campaign includes Licensed Works, the following applies.” The terms here are unlimited in their scope. Imagine we signed this agreement, and then later wanted to run a crowdfunding campaign for, say, a card game, a movie, a better jukebox. Sorry, we’re no longer allowed to: You may only crowdfund the production of Licensed Works. Yes, that’s absurd and unreasonable — but this entire agreement is absurd and unreasonable, and if I didn’t know it was real, I’d assume it was a satire.

Worse, if we do crowdfund, the whole campaign counts as one product for royalty purposes. Did we want to do a crowdfunding campaign for our OGL 1.1. sourcebook with custom miniatures? We’ll pay royalties on the miniatures, not just the book.

And now the finale…

B. You own the new and original content You create. You agree to give Us a nonexclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, sub-licensable, royalty-free license to use that content for any purpose,
A. Nothing prohibits Us from developing, distributing, selling, or promoting something that is substantially similar to a Licensed Work.
This is the money shot. I’ve presented these in reverse order because it makes it more clear exactly the situation this license puts us in. If Autarch were to sign OGL 1.1, we would be giving WOTC a perpetual irrevocable royalty-free license to all of our new and original content. There is no provision to exclude what used to be call “product identity.” Wizards has proclaimed that ITS license to us is revocable at any time, but if we use its license, then we give it an irrevocable license. This is beyond unconscionable — it’s grotesque.

And, of course, having secured the rights to all of our work if we sign, WOTC explicitly claims the right to make substantially similar products. Did we have an innovative monster? A fresh new setting concept? It’s WOTC’s now and they can do what they want with out, without attribution, without royalties.

To summarize it all: Under the old Open Game License, the licensor made its content open to the licensee. But under the new Open Game License, the licensee makes its content open to the licensor!

What Is to Be Done?​

So here we are. It feels surreal. I’ve been writing OGL material for 12 years and now it’s all in jeopardy. What is to be done?

The OGL 1.1 is a non-starter. From its unconscionable claim on licensee IP to its grotesque provisions for termination, it is entirely unacceptable to us. Autarch will not agree to its terms. If that’s the hill we die on, so be it.

The OGL 1.0 is unreliable. What does being deauthorized actually do? No one knows, and only a court can say for sure. What does WOTC mean when it says that after January 13, 2023 we can’t “publish” work under the original OGL — does it mean publish new work, or publish legacy work? No one knows except Nick Mitchell, and he isn’t talking. An unreliable license is no basis to build a business on.

Therefore, the only choice is to abandon the OGL entirely. Going forward, Autarch will no longer produce material under the Open Game License. We will be launching our upcoming Adventurer Conqueror King System: Imperial Imprint (ACKS II) in May without any WOTC SRD material. We will put in place a new license - a truly open license — that will make the core rules of ACKS II available to every other OSR developer in the space. And all of our future products, on DriveThruRPG, Kickstarter, Patreon, and elsewhere, will be released to be compatible with ACKS II or Ascendant, not with anything owned or touched by WOTC.

Whether we will be able to continue to publish our existing OGL games remains to be seen. Our intent is to continue to do so until forced to stop. Whether we will be de-platformed also remains to be seen. If so, we will find or build new platforms. I’ve done it before.

To my comrades in the OSR community — I know that your situation is similar to mine, perhaps even more difficult if your game of choice is closer to TSR/WOTC’s designs. What will happen to OSE — can a perfect replica of BX be sustained without the OGL? What will happen to DCC? What will happen to LL, to LOTFP? Every developer in the OSR is endangered. I welcome any and all collaborators who would like to build on ACKS II and support any independent efforts you are making to help reclaim a space for open OSR gaming. Reach out, friend.

To my comrades in the 5E community — You deserved so much better from WOTC than you have been given. I was gratified to learn that a number of independent developers are already working on a 5E-compatible but WOTC-free SRD that will be available under the creative commons. These fine people have the right idea and I hope they will gain your support. My own work is not and has never been 5E compatible, but these efforts have my full support all the same.

With the deauthorization of OGL 1.0a and the release of OGL 1.1, Wizards of the Coast has attempted to bring an end to the open gaming movement which has made our hobby more popular than ever. But if our movement sticks together, this does not need to be the end of open gaming. This can be a new beginning.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

JamesDixon

GM Extraordinaire
Patron
Dumbfuck
Joined
Jul 29, 2015
Messages
11,310
Location
In the ether
Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut
Imagine if WOTC sued Autarch claiming that my game Ascendant was violating their copyright. Ascendant is a d100 superhero game that has nothing in common with D&D and uses no language from the SRD. WOTC would have legitimate claim whatsoever.

I stopped reading right there. The guy is a moron since copyright doesn't protect game mechanics and you can't sue for shit you don't own. This makes Wizard's claim illegitimate. He didn't even consult a lawyer I bet.
 

Acrux

Arcane
Joined
Jul 1, 2019
Messages
1,489
Imagine if WOTC sued Autarch claiming that my game Ascendant was violating their copyright. Ascendant is a d100 superhero game that has nothing in common with D&D and uses no language from the SRD. WOTC would have legitimate claim whatsoever.

I stopped reading right there. The guy is a moron since copyright doesn't protect game mechanics and you can't sue for shit you don't own. This makes Wizard's claim illegitimate. He didn't even consult a lawyer I bet.
From the rest of what he wrote, I think there's a critical missing "no" he meant to include before legitimate. Because his point is that WOTC doesn't have a right to do it, but they are threatening to take action and there's potential that no one will fight them on it so they would win by default since lawsuits are so expensive.
 

JamesDixon

GM Extraordinaire
Patron
Dumbfuck
Joined
Jul 29, 2015
Messages
11,310
Location
In the ether
Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut
Imagine if WOTC sued Autarch claiming that my game Ascendant was violating their copyright. Ascendant is a d100 superhero game that has nothing in common with D&D and uses no language from the SRD. WOTC would have legitimate claim whatsoever.

I stopped reading right there. The guy is a moron since copyright doesn't protect game mechanics and you can't sue for shit you don't own. This makes Wizard's claim illegitimate. He didn't even consult a lawyer I bet.
From the rest of what he wrote, I think there's a critical missing "no" he meant to include before legitimate. Because his point is that WOTC doesn't have a right to do it, but they are threatening to take action and there's potential that no one will fight them on it so they would win by default since lawsuits are so expensive.

So he wrote fear porn for clicks. The most despicable type of writer out there. As punishment he needs to have his fingers broken on both hands.
 

TumblingTorin

Educated
Joined
May 27, 2021
Messages
64
Imagine if WOTC sued Autarch claiming that my game Ascendant was violating their copyright. Ascendant is a d100 superhero game that has nothing in common with D&D and uses no language from the SRD. WOTC would have legitimate claim whatsoever.

I stopped reading right there. The guy is a moron since copyright doesn't protect game mechanics and you can't sue for shit you don't own. This makes Wizard's claim illegitimate. He didn't even consult a lawyer I bet.
It doesn't matter if Wotc has a case or not, Wotc will sue you to put you into bankruptcy with legal fees before you even reach court. I got a friend that had to go to court FOUR TIMES to retain child custody because his crazy ex wanted to fuck with him. She didn't care if she lost because her new husband was loaded. My friend was in heavy debts because of all the lawyer fees, even though he won all his cases. Let's hope that Wotc doesn't become T$R 2.0 (They $ue Regularly).


Even if someone goes to court with Wotc and was able to Kickstart a fund to pay for the court fees, they have to finish the trial and not settle, which the article mentions later on.
Imagine this hypothetical: Paizo files a lawsuit against Wizards. A year later, after about $500,000 of expense on motions, they begin to proceed to trial. Their lawyers estimate they have a 70% chance to win. At this point, WOTC now offers to settle, offering Paizo a perpetual irrevocable license for the 3.5E SRD in exchange for Paizo’s agreement not to exploit the 5.1 SRD in any way and other minor concessions. If you’re Paizo, do you spend another $3.5 million and 3 years in trial for a 70% win — or do you take that deal?

Most companies take that deal.
The years it will take to finish the trial, Wotc will probably do a lot of damage to others companies by then.
Look, going to court fucking sucks. The more time you spend in court, the less time you are working. It's hard to make a decent lining in this field of work. Few people can write TTRPGs for a living.


It's a good thing the new OGL document was leaked. The fact that Wotc reaction is basically, "We know you got questions. Stay tune for answers." shows they are completely blindsided by the leak and the reaction.
 

JamesDixon

GM Extraordinaire
Patron
Dumbfuck
Joined
Jul 29, 2015
Messages
11,310
Location
In the ether
Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut
It doesn't matter if Wotc has a case or not,

It does since if they lack standing then you can file a motion to show that the judge will toss the case out of court. That will pre-emptively end Wizards rampage.

I got a friend that had to go to court FOUR TIMES to retain child custody because his crazy ex wanted to fuck with him.

Invalid comparison since we're talking copyright law not family law. They are two completely different fields that have wildly different court rules that apply. In fact, copyright cases are heard by federal courts and family court cases are heard by state family courts. Two completely different jurisdictions.

The years it will take to finish the trial, Wotc will probably do a lot of damage to others companies by then.

That you will recover as part of punitive damages, including having the judge order them to pay your legal costs on top of the other awards. As part of said judgment the judge can rule that any case by Wizards that is for copyright over D&D mechanics to be "with prejudice". What that means is that Wizards is now forbidden from pursuing any further legal action against others for the same thing. They also can't sue you again for the same thing. Finally, the judge can sanction Wizards lawyers that can reach as high as disbarring them from the practice of law. No lawyer is willing to lose their license over something so illegal.

Yes, I rated your idiocy as retarded.
 
Last edited:

Jaedar

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 5, 2009
Messages
9,944
Project: Eternity Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker
It does since if they lack standing then you can file a motion to show that the judge will toss the case out of court. That will pre-emptively end Wizards rampage.
I feel like this is assuming wotc doesn't fiile the suit with a friendly judge/court/jurisdiction or whatever?
. As part of said judgment the judge can rule that any case by Wizards that is for copyright over D&D mechanics to be "with prejudice".
"can" is doing a lot of work in this sentence.

I am not a lawyer but:
As I said before: I don't think wizards will sue any existing projects, I assume as long as you have released, you're probably fine because you can say you were using OGL 1.0, and it does not seem possible for wotc to say they retroactively canceled that agreement.
Potentially as long as you've been working in something for long and publicly enough that it is trivial to prove it, you might also be safe, but this seems a bit more tenuous.

If you're starting on something new I think you'll be stuck with OGL 1.1. The more interesting question is where expansions/dlc/splatbooks/etc to currently released works end up. But I guess those are fucked as well.

But I also think we won't really know until we see Paizo or similar react.
 

pakoito

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jun 7, 2012
Messages
3,130
The spectre of Lorainne Williams continues to haunt TSR WOTC.

FmSTCXPXkAU8TEp
Sounds like an ex-MS org alright. They're known to be org poison in other big techs, but they still hire them bc fail upwards and valley mobility and stuff.
 

JamesDixon

GM Extraordinaire
Patron
Dumbfuck
Joined
Jul 29, 2015
Messages
11,310
Location
In the ether
Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut
I feel like this is assuming wotc doesn't fiile the suit with a friendly judge/court/jurisdiction or whatever?

We all know what assume is. It means to make an ass out of you and me. In IP courts there are no friendly judges. It is a completely different beast from the rest of the court system.

As I said before: I don't think wizards will sue any existing projects, I assume as long as you have released, you're probably fine because you can say you were using OGL 1.0, and it does not seem possible for wotc to say they retroactively canceled that agreement.
Potentially as long as you've been working in something for long and publicly enough that it is trivial to prove it, you might also be safe, but this seems a bit more tenuous.

If you're starting on something new I think you'll be stuck with OGL 1.1. The more interesting question is where expansions/dlc/splatbooks/etc to currently released works end up. But I guess those are fucked as well.

But I also think we won't really know until we see Paizo or similar react.

Wizards can't sue you if you don't use the OGL. You can rewrite their game mechanics and there is Jack and Shit they can do about it. You know why? Because game mechanics can't be copyrighted or patented. There is plenty of case law to back it up.
 
Last edited:

lycanwarrior

Scholar
Joined
Jan 1, 2021
Messages
1,334
Kobold Press today announced they are done with OGL content and are creating their own system. They are not huge per se, but they are not tiny either. They could be this generation's Paizo.
So did Troll Lord Games. More companies/creators likely to do the same over the coming months.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom