Vapourware Would you like an RPG that switches between 1st person / isometric?

[DavidBVal]

I have my next project on the design table. It will be party based and TB, open world exploration, can't share more for now.

I've been entertaining the idea of switching between "Exploration Mode" in 1st person and real time, then switching "Combat Mode" when fighting begins: camera moves up to isometric view and turn based.

1st person is always more immersive and gives a greater feeling of exploration, plus it adds more possibilities for puzzles or hidden things, as player can notice small details, interact more specifically with items. Example, drag a coin to a statue's hand, etc. 3rd person is obviously a must for tactical combat. I would like to explore the possibility of having the best of both worlds. Technically, I don't think it would be a problem; I am asking about the concept.

This is how Pool of Radiance worked, which happens to be my favorite RPG of all time. I wonder if you'd like a game that worked like that, or would rather stick to isometric camera, or if you foresee any issues I might have overlooked. Also, no modern RPG I know works this way, if you know of one that does please tell me!

 

[ERYFKRAD]

if you know of one that does please tell me!

Realms of Arkania HD.

And more seriously, Dungeons of Aledorn will work that way when released.

I'd like more games in that fashion, I'm not entirely certain why this style has such few games.

 

[Snorkack]

Hell yea!

 

[Wayward Son]

Sounds cool, allows for both tactical combat and the (imo) better exploration and heightened tensions allowed by first person.

 

[Alchemist]

It's the best of both worlds - if you can pull it off, I say go for it. I would definitely like to see more games like this.

I'd like more games in that fashion, I'm not entirely certain why this style has such few games.

I think because it's basically making 2 games in 1. 2 sets of graphics, different gameplay mechanics for each mode, etc... It just makes it much more complex to do, and requires more graphic resources.

It was probably easier in the Gold Box days because the graphics were so simple.

I would suggest any current indie attempt should do the same, keep the graphics as simple as possible.

 

[DavidBVal]

Dungeons of Aledorn will work that way when released.

Thanks for the pointer, looks like the idea is not just my craziness after all.

I think because it's basically making 2 games in 1. 2 sets of graphics, different gameplay mechanics for each mode, etc... It just makes it much more complex to do, and requires more graphic resources.

Some years ago maybe, now you simply need to switch to a second camera, and different LOD models/textures if you need to optimize rendering (1st person models need more detail, of course), plus a little code to hide roofs and other geometry that would be in the way. I'm positive I can pull it off.

 

[Dorateen]

Count me in for another who would like to see first person exploration and switch to top down tactical combat.

As already mentioned, Gold Box and Realms of Arkania seem to be the only series of games to pull off this approach.

 

[Jacob]

I am positive about third person combat on separate screens, but for a game that would simply switch camera to top down view on combat... wouldn't designing map that would be interesting for both first person exploration and top down combat be difficult?

 

[DavidBVal]

I am positive about third person combat on separate screens, but for a game that would simply switch camera to top down view on combat... wouldn't designing map that would be interesting for both first person exploration and top down combat be difficult?

It's true that, in some ways, it would limit what can be done in each view. I'll probably not allow the player to squeeze the party through a pipe and then have a battle there, so some constrains and compromises would be necessary, but in the end it's a tradeoff which, for now, I think is worth it. We'll find out!

 

[felipepepe]

I love the idea of first-person exploration + isometric TB combat. Best of both worlds.

Just be very careful with UI & encounter design. The Eye of the Beholder remake of GBA made that change, but battles were so frequent & slow that it actually made the game worst:

 

[asfasdf]

Sounds like albion

 

[Jokzore]

no

 

[Mustawd]

Hell yea!

 

[Severian Silk]

NO STUPID

 

[Mustawd]

NO STUPID

 

[Nathaniel3W]

I think it's fine to have different exploration and combat modes. I'm doing that same thing. But I think that switching from first-person to isometric would cause some problems, a few of which have been mentioned above. Before diving into those, I think you might just want to ask yourself what you want the feel of the game to be, and whether first-person or isometric (or some other viewpoint) provides that feel best. And assuming you're going to be the lone developer on the game, you might want to consider what you have the resources for.

Do you want the game to feel immersive? Do you want the player to feel swallowed up by the world? First-person, and even a closely following third-person perspective both can provide that. Bethesda's games excel at immersion, and sometimes break from first/third-person for a cinematic gore cam. The Witcher is also very immersive, but switches much more often for cutscenes that Fallout would just show you from first-person. But none of those games have you giving detailed combat orders to your party. The upcoming Bannerlord meanwhile will have what seems to be immersive combat, with your orders being given from first/third-person perspective. It looks like they got that working really well.

Tons of games have a third-person exploration mode that controls very similarly to (or at least looks similar to) the third-person combat mode. Neverwinter Nights and Dragon Age both had you moving your party around using the same controls both in town and in combat. I think that works well, and that's more or less the template that I'm following. But it does not allow the kind of fine-manipulation puzzles or level of detail that you would find in a carefully crafted first-person-perspective game.

As for mixing the two perspectives, I don't know man. I guess Realms of Arkania according to ERYFKRAD does that, but I think you're mostly going to be exploring new ground there. I'm worried that switching back and forth like that will make it feel like two different games, and the players who like one may not like the other. I think that the difference in gameplay could be too jarring...

And I'm just typing this out as I think about it: Maybe you could mix the two modes a little more often than just exploration/combat, so either mode feels hybrid. I think you should have a camera transition, instead of an abrupt switch. And maybe first-person exploration should be interrupted by an overhead view for cutscenes and the like. And maybe the overhead-view combat could zoom in to see a critical hit. Or maybe instead of a true first-person exploration mode, you might consider third-person. I think that will do most of what you want to do, with a smaller gap separating exploration from combat.

Anyway, I don't think it's a bad idea. I just think it'll be challenging to get the two to mix well.

 

[Mustawd]

I think you might just want to ask yourself what you want the feel of the game to be

I want the feel of fps turn-based exploration and isometric combat.

Das it motherfuckers...

 

[Naveen]

Yes, and some time ago I thought about something like that. My idea was a first-person exploration mode, with real-time blobber-like movements where your team of adventurers plays with the environment in a somewhat realistic way (physic puzzles, trying to avoid traps, moving objects, checking for treasures and secret rooms, etc.,) and combat would change the perspective to isometric, turn-based combat. The idea actually came to me when thinking about how some old-school pen & paper D&D games were played. Exploration was a collective work, a back and forth game of questions between the players and the DM, rarely skill-based, and the whole group played as "one." If combat happened, then miniatures could be used.

 

[Nathaniel3W]

I want the feel of fps turn-based exploration...

At first I was thinking, "Turn-based FPS? What?" Then I looked up Realms of Arkania.

OK, I think I get it now. Yeah, with that kind of first-person camera, I guess the change from exploration to isometric-view combat wouldn't be as jarring as I was imagining.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Not exactly isometric, but Betrayal at Krondor has something similar, as will Rhuantavan's Call of Saregnar.

 

[Mustawd]

Then I looked up Realms of Arkania.

Yah, that's what I had in mind.

 

[DavidBVal]

Anyway, I don't think it's a bad idea. I just think it'll be challenging to get the two to mix well.

I agree about it being somewhat of a challenge, but I look forward to it. After 3 years and 2 months of working on 2D isometric I'm sick of it and in desperate need to enter "unexplored territory".

 

[Galdred]

I would indeed, but wouldn't that make the cost of your art assets explode?

 

[DavidBVal]

I would indeed, but wouldn't that make the cost of your art assets explode?

Not a problem right now, thanks to my last game. For now seems to be enough to fund this project. Or so it seems, early stage caution and all that.

 

[V_K]

Of modern games, 7 Mages has a sort of a compromise version of this. The perspective stayed first-person both in and out of combat, but while in exploration your party moved as a blob, in combat all characters could move separately and had their own initiative and AP pools. The game even did some fun stuff with the setup, but was let down by some technical limitations because it was developed with mobiles in mind.