Wow, Deus Ex: HR's story is...

[ChristofferC]

Umm there's no minmaxing in this game.

 

[Gord]

Ok, make than maxing then (coupled with some OCD)

Although, there is (some):
Only take the useful augs, ignore the others (radar augs, silent running, etc.)
Take double takedown and hacking fast, to gain more exp, while putting of the others for later.

 

[waywardOne]

but DX:HR is designed so you can become a master of everything.

I blame the 3rd edition D&D faggots and that entire SAT-dumbeddown-generation that want just one character class: allofthem.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

but DX:HR is designed so you can become a master of everything.

I blame the 3rd edition D&D faggots and that entire SAT-dumbeddown-generation that want just one character class: allofthem.

3rd edition DnD had a shitload of classes.

 

[Grunker]

wat

D&D3.5. edition is probably one the most diverse systems in the world. And I say this as a GURPS-fanboy.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Well, it's at least the most diverse D20 game.

 

[Grunker]

I honestly think 3.5 is way up there with the most diverse... I can't think of many other systems with as much pick n' choose.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

I agree, I'm just not going to take the risk and be that certain, since it's just an invitation for someone to bring some obscure system up. But it's definately up there.

 

[waywardOne]

Diverse does not necessitate distinct, nor is having 50 choices better than 10 if the difference among the 10 is merely divided among the 50. Whatever. If I can't find the article I wrote years ago about this same issue I'm not continuing this; I'll just plea nolo contendre.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

I have a distinct feeling you've never even looked into DnD 3.5...

 

[Grunker]

So you are claiming that all characters you build in 3.5 end up feeling and looking the same?

You should come play some level 24 gestalt with us bro.

 

[waywardOne]

I am biased after a recent foray back into PnP with Pathfinder. Maybe all 6 of the other players were terribad RPers and the DM was a moron, but there felt like so much overlap between characters that I quit after 2 sessions.

I also hate wizards that can tank via spells and that thieves are routinely obsolesced.

 

[Grunker]

I am biased after a recent foray back into PnP with Pathfinder. Maybe all 6 of the other players were terribad RPers and the DM was a moron, but there felt like so much overlap between characters that I quit after 2 sessions.

I also hate wizards that can tank via spells and that thieves are routinely obsolesced.

I find Pathfinder to be pretty enjoyable. That and 3.5 with as many sourcebooks as possible (banning the obviously broken stuff) is the best way to play D&D in my opinion.

The wizard's tanking with spells is a problem you encounter in a bad adventure or a DM that doesn't know how to use Dispel Magic and those types of spells.

Rogues being obsolesced are, I find, a problem that stems from lack of experience on behalf of the player building the rogue. The rogue is the situational best damage dealer.

In any case, a party in a truly gamist (and hard) campaign will need characters to fill out all roles. I play as player right now in the Shadow Weave Trilogy with a point-buy of 22 points which is extremely hard. Our party right now consists of me (psionic rogue from Complete Psionic), our tank (cleric/crusader utilising Shield Other), our main damage dealer (psionic) our lasting damage (warlock - inefficient but able to apply solid damage over long time when we can't get a rest), our healer (paladin with the spirit of healing alternative class feature) and a controller-type (good ol' wizard).

This party is very diverse and each character feels completely unique. To overcome the encounters we need to use the strengths of all of them in combination. For example, in pure, raw, damage output I'm tied with the psionicist, but we're both pretty squishy. I'm a little less squishy than he is but he's able to stun and apply other controlling effects on the battlefield. Our Cleric/Crusader is pretty genious - all the tanking powers of the crusader combined with shield other is pretty effective.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

And it also bears mention that Pathfinder balanced and diversified the classes further, especially wizards and sorcerers. And their expansion books added some really unique classes, like Summoner and Alchemist.

Though I personally believe every DnD character should be an arcane spellcaster, the manliest of all character types.

 

[deuxhero]

No, PF removed the only working melee build in core (Spiked Chain+trip+teleporting from Horizon walker=fun) that didn't focus on using a mount and hoping you kill things in one hit. PF also left most of the wizard's better spells alone.

Only thing it fixed was 3.5's out of printness.

 

[Grunker]

No, PF removed the only working melee build in core (Spiked Chain+trip+teleporting from Horizon walker=fun)

This is no more a working build of core than the Power Attacker or the Shield Other tank, and it certainly could not compete with melee classes from Tome of Battle - which are essentially the only viable melee builds past level 14.

There are, however, plenty of viable melee builds pre-level 14 (even in core), the rogue being one of them. And this is even more so if you draw in supplements. And who in God's name would want to play D&D3.5 using only core materials?

Pathfinder was 3.5's core but much better. D&D is broken beyond level 14-15 and though it is sad that Pathfinder did not remedy this completely it did a plethora of stuff better than core 3.5.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Though it bears mention that DND has ALWAYS been broken as fuck after a certain point. I guess people think of it as a feature.

Anyway, the mighty Pun-Pun is a viable melee build.

 

[Grunker]

Pun-Pun is a viable melee build.

I guess calling Pun-Pun a melee build is technically correct, buuuut...

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Indeed, Pun-Pun is Pun-Pun.

EDIT: In fact, I can't imagine anything as funny in RPGs as going to a DnD group who have never heard of the mighty Pun-Pun, and then proceed to create Pun-Pun in their game. The looks on their faces at just the first phase would be hilarious.

 

[Ulminati]

No more fun than being allowed to make 2 custom spells. One that removes all air in a 1-foot cube and one that creates 2 1 square foot portals linked to each other.

Then you create a 1-foot-cube hermetically sealed glass container with a pound of iron filings in it. Cast your portal spell on the bottom and top of the cube and then your remove air spell to make sure there is no friction for the iron filings. Congratualtions, you have now made a gravity pump! The energy in the iron filings will increase exponentially until you get bored. Then kick the cube and explode the world.

 

[SCO]

^
This is why physicists shouldn't be allowed to play, only DM.

 

[Grunker]

Everytime you bring real world physics into a discussion about fantasy roleplaying, god kills a true bro.

Please, think about the bros.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Peasant Railgun is still the ultimate DnD weapon.

 

[Gord]

No more fun than being allowed to make 2 custom spells. One that removes all air in a 1-foot cube and one that creates 2 1 square foot portals linked to each other.

Then you create a 1-foot-cube hermetically sealed glass container with a pound of iron filings in it. Cast your portal spell on the bottom and top of the cube and then your remove air spell to make sure there is no friction for the iron filings. Congratualtions, you have now made a gravity pump! The energy in the iron filings will increase exponentially until you get bored. Then kick the cube and explode the world.

Although you would have to consider relativistic effects (assuming they exist in a fantasy universe, probably not).
As the speed grows, some side effects will begin to pose a problem:
1. Possible collision with particles. Yes we have a vacuum, but eventually there will be particles inside your cube. At speeds close to the speed of light they will begin to pose a serious problem.
2. Relativistic increase of mass. Sooner or later the mass of your iron filings will be big enough to attract the cube and the portals on the cube. I don't know what happens when you cross the portals but I'm sure it's evil

Now admittedly both outcomes might be exactly what you want.

 

[deuxhero]

There are, however, plenty of viable melee builds pre-level 14 (even in core), the rogue being one of them.

As long as you don't fight undead, constructs, plants, humanoids with fortification armor or anything that can fly/otherwise keep away from you (Horizon walker's teleport is HUGE for melee, even when it can't attack on the same turn).

Also said in core. Power Attack abuse won't go very far (2 damage per 1 accuracy for core)