Wow, Deus Ex: HR's story is...

[Grunker]

Realism vs Gameplay - which is better and why?

 

[Wyrmlord]

When it comes to leveling up, I preferred the original. You earned skill points to put into swimming and stuff and then you picked up canisters to put into yourself to get new powers. What's this shit about Adam Jensen coming fully upgraded he just needs a little help to unlock his full supermegaawesome potential? Bullshit.

I'd say it makes a fuckload more sense than a government superagent being an ordinary dude barely able to shoot a pistol straight in front of himself and the only advantage of his nanoaugmentation being light in his eyes. And his need to buy upgrades to this government-provided nanotechnology from smugglers or steal it from secret bases, all the while still working for the government. While people around him who're supposed to be bureaucrats have top of the line combat nanotech despite actually receiving nanoaugmentations later than said superagent.

The NSF had stolen or smuggled away various augmentation cannisters from near the UNATCO base, and kept them stashed away because they thought they could use them. Data disks say so. And JC wasn't given the full range of the latest firmware because he just started, they hadn't won his 100% loyalty, and he was to be given only what he needed for his range of tasks.

Loyal men like Gunther receive upgrades just for towing the line long enough.

 

[SoupNazi]

I wasn't saying that the fact that aug canisters were being smuggled and stolen was bad or unrealistic. He was supposed to be this super soldier capable of taking on an entire terrorist force on his own and he was given an eye implant flashlight. What, was "his range of tasks" shining light in the enemy's faces long enough that they go blind? Everyone talks about how great JC's augmentations are, how he's top of the line, and yet ...

I just find it hilarious that someone as intelligent as Andy would complain about Jensen's predicament and not even stop to think how retarded JC's was, when really the only reason why he succeeded was because AI is stupid and player is clever.

I'm not complaining about the actual gameplay decision, but the comparison is there, and in it, I'm sorry to say but HR comes out top.

 

[praetor]

Realism vs Gameplay - which is better and why?

it's not realism. it's consistency and making sense. as soupnazi said, when you're a supposedly superagent that's worth billions of $$$ but you're effectively worse that ordinary terrorists and whatnot, it's simply retarded (never mind the fact that more than half the skills and augs in the original are just as useless as in this prequel). rose tinted glasses and all...

 

[Grunker]

Rose tinted glasses my fucking ass. The fact is that leveling up stuff or installing augs in Deus Ex significantly improved the choices at your disposable and your effectiveness at given tasks (unless you took some of the obviously retarded stuff like environmental protection).

This is only true in DX:HR for the first few praxis points, beyond this, the points you spend almost don't matter.

This is gameplay-related. We can discuss the "it's consistency and makes sense" afterwards because it is a minor issue. And I don't agree there either. Are you more than capable of handling the terrorists of the NSF with the basic stuff you are provided? Yes. Then why should they spend more on what can, at most, be described as a hopeful cadet whom they don't know that well and therefore can't trust - conspiracy-makers being understandingly paranoid?

 

[praetor]

Rose tinted glasses my fucking ass. The fact is that leveling up stuff or installing augs in Deus Ex significantly improved the choices at your disposable and your effectiveness at given tasks (unless you took some of the obviously retarded stuff like environmental protection).

what choices did the skills improve besides requiring less lockpicks/multitools to unlock doors (wow. big fucking deal)? and the augs? last time i played it (and that was with shifter's improved useless skills&augs) i did pretty much everything and the only augs i used were cloak & silent running to get through a couple of areas a bit quicker since i couldn't be arsed to wait for the guards to "align" or whatever... hell, items are more useful than augs (f.e. cloak makes you invisible only vs humans, while the camo suit provides invisibility vs both humans and "artificials")

This is gameplay-related. We can discuss the "it's consistency and makes sense" afterwards because it is a minor issue. And I don't agree there either. Are you more than capable of handling the terrorists of the NSF with the basic stuff you are provided? Yes. Then why should they spend more on what can, at most, be described as a hopeful cadet whom they don't know that well and therefore can't trust - conspiracy-makers being understandingly paranoid?

from a purely gameplay perspective, i partly agree. like the sea bro explained in his article, splitting your "upgrade path" between a rpgish system and one "provided" by "the environment" kinda forces you to explore to get the "full experience".. but since, as i already mentioned, half (if not more) of both the skills and augs are largely useless if not entirely pointless... i'd say the distinction is something like "in DX1 you have to run explore every nook and cranny to get all (or most) of the upgrades" while "in DXHR you have to hack everything and knock out every guard (or most of them) plus explore a bit if you want" and in that i'd agree that, at least conceptually, the latter is slightly more tedious even though the former's implementation isn't as brilliant as people make it out to be. imo, DX1's biggest strength (if not the only one), is in the much more "open" level design (even though the environments feel much more "gamey", i.e. they never have the feeling of an actual "real" place but rather feel like "game maps") vs the "here's a couple of obvious and distinct and different paths. pick one" approach of DXHR.

but coming back to that whole "consistency thing": you're not a simple "hopeful cadet". you're a fucking multi-billion dollar project (i don't remember if Simons mentions the exact amount they've spent on R&D of JCD, but i'm 99,99% positive it was in the billions). and when you consider that at the beginning you're nothing more than a barely trained police dude (skill-wise), the only thing that comes to mind is: . hell, a modern day spec ops dude costs less to train and has a wider and "better" skillset than JC at the start

 

[Wyrmlord]

By the way, even on Realistic, if you put all the points you have at the beginning of the game into a single weapon, you will be an effective master at the weapon.

So praetor's "you're effectively worse that ordinary terrorists and whatnot" is complete nonsense. I was walking around with a Sniper Rifle, and I had Advanced skill in Sniper from the **game's very beginning**.

Everytime an NSF terrorist or MJ12 troop saw me, he had a 0.5 second hesitation, and it took me 0.5 seconds to headshot him. So the player is always superior to the game's enemies, because the player does not have to hesitate.

So cut the crap about JC being untrained in use of weapons. He is quite adequate, IF YOU MAKE HIM SO. And if you leave him as an inept soldier, whose fault was it?

 

[SoupNazi]

He's still fucking inept compared to fully augmented agents (Paul, Simmons) or even Gunther and Anna. The fact that you can upgrade one of your gun skills to an advanced level (and thus sacrifice some of the much more useful skills) is irrelevant. Partially because he has no augmentations, which is supposed to be his greatest strength. He was supposed to have been in training for years, practically since his childhood, so god damnit I would have expected him to at least bring some skills from that.

The only reason JC succeeds in his first several missions is that he's controlled by a player and not AI, but that has nothing to do with his augmentations. If the playing field was leveled in that department, he'd get killed by the first NSF on Liberty Island.

For someone who's supposed to be a billion fucking dollars super nano special secret agent war machine - and he is regarded as so by every single god damn character in the beginning - JC is useless.

 

[Captain Shrek]

He's still fucking inept compared to fully augmented agents (Paul, Simmons) or even Gunther and Anna. The fact that you can upgrade one of your gun skills to an advanced level (and thus sacrifice some of the much more useful skills) is irrelevant. Partially because he has no augmentations, which is supposed to be his greatest strength. He was supposed to have been in training for years, practically since his childhood, so god damnit I would have expected him to at least bring some skills from that.

The only reason JC succeeds in his first several missions is that he's controlled by a player and not AI, but that has nothing to do with his augmentations. If the playing field was leveled in that department, he'd get killed by the first NSF on Liberty Island.

For someone who's supposed to be a billion fucking dollars super nano special secret agent war machine - and he is regarded as so by every single god damn character in the beginning - JC is useless.

Because for fuck's sake, he is just out of POLICE training. Paul has seen operations before this. And you get TRAINED in pistols and somethingidon'tremember from the get go.

 

[Excommunicator]

You're taking the Realism vs. Gamism effect way too far SoupNazi.

If the designers had given JC a realistic level in all his skills according to his training and background and billion $ nanotech etc., then all that would be left would be twitch shooting, health regen and cover popamole. Is that what you want? No doubt you would be on here saying "Stupid action game, why do they even give you the opportunity to raise your skills if you start the game with good enough skills to win at everything already? FFS bullshitz"

The only reason JC starts with skills lower than he would otherwise have in a realistic depiction is so the goddamn player can train their skills how they want and have some fun with different character types. Would you be happier if Deus Ex was just a FPS with no skills?

You can't have everything.

 

[Grunker]

It is hilariously evident how much computer gaming and Hollywood have conditioned you guys to believe how easy it is to handle precision shooting

Even at the most basic level (i.e. without training) JC is a veritable master at pistols compared to untrained dudes IRL.

NOT THAT IT FUCKING MATTERS BECAUSE IT IS GAMEPLAY-RELATED

 

[Gord]

Both games approach makes some sense. JC is still a rookie, even if presumably highly trained and his body has only been prepared to acchieve nano-augmentations. Obviously it's no big deal to install nano augs later. But yeah, they could have given him more than glowing eyes at the start of the game...

Jensen on the other hand has been at police and SWAT for around 10 years (?), you can expect that his skills won't improve dramatically within a few days (although you could take the lazy way out and say that he has to train them again due to his near-death experience and 6 month recovery).
Likewise his primitive mechanical augmentations can not easily be installed - would you like to spend 2 month in hospital every time you get a body part replaced?
So the whole "Your body has to get used to it" approach is not exactly perfect, but more logical than others.

But that's probably just my LARPing speaking here.

Anyway, both games could definitely use some overhaul/rebalancing of their system.

Edit: Now that i think of it, they could have made Jensens augs modular, with upgrade kids offering different abilities scattered around, each upgrade offering different possibilities and unique trade-offs.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

I think I'll just add that flashlight eyes are the most retarded augmentation ever. I mean, I can imagine JC feeling immense shame just for having them.

It is hilariously evident how much computer gaming and Hollywood have conditioned you guys to believe how easy it is to handle precision shooting

It is also hilariously evident how the opposite side also doesn't know a goddamn thing about how long it takes to learn precision shooting with intense training, or how easy it is to handle a good assault rifle.

 

[Wyrmlord]

I think I'll just add that flashlight eyes are the most retarded augmentation ever. I mean, I can imagine JC feeling immense shame just for having them.

That's why he wore those sunglasses - to hide his glowing blue eyeballs.

It was probably a matter of embarassment for him, when he was confronted about it by Anna Navarre.

 

[Andyman Messiah]

"My vision is augmented."

Makes sense that they'd put the flashlight in his eyes, though.

 

[SoupNazi]

@grunker & co.: I never said I'd prefer, from a gameplay standpoint, if JC was completely augmented since the start. My reply was always aimed towards Andy's statement that the excuse for why Jensen needs to unlock his augs throughout the game is much better than the one offered in the original game (which is none; there is no reason for JC not to be better augmented and the game is probably better off not trying to explain it).

Gameplay wise, of course it makes sense. But it's funny as hell that you guys didn't jump on Andy's cock defending the GAMEPLAY decision behind Jensesn' predicament like you did with my note. then again ols game cannot possibly be bad and new one must be inherently worse lol!!!

 

[Wyrmlord]

"then again ols game cannot possibly be bad and new one must be inherently worse lol!!!"

Of course not. I am playing Deus Ex right now, and I feel it is more of a tradeoff between certain features when you go from the first game to the latest one.

You definitely get some better things, but also after giving up a few good elements and getting some new bad elements.

 

[Grunker]

@grunker & co.: I never said I'd prefer, from a gameplay standpoint, if JC was completely augmented since the start. My reply was always aimed towards Andy's statement that the excuse for why Jensen needs to unlock his augs throughout the game is much better than the one offered in the original game (which is none; there is no reason for JC not to be better augmented and the game is probably better off not trying to explain it).

Gameplay wise, of course it makes sense. But it's funny as hell that you guys didn't jump on Andy's cock defending the GAMEPLAY decision behind Jensesn' predicament like you did with my note. then again ols game cannot possibly be bad and new one must be inherently worse lol!!!

I mostly only commented on the Jensen-thing with regards to gameplay. Go read again.

 

[Excommunicator]

I haven't played HR yet. I'm sure it's no better in that respect anyway

 

[Andyman Messiah]

Gameplay wise, of course it makes sense. But it's funny as hell that you guys didn't jump on Andy's cock defending the GAMEPLAY decision behind Jensesn' predicament like you did with my note. then again ols game cannot possibly be bad and new one must be inherently worse lol!!!

Jesus jerking off in the shower! All I'm saying is I like to pick my upgrades. Jensen comes fully upgraded. He can, provided he collects enough praxis kits (which I hear there are enough of in the game) upgrade everything completely, whereas JC has to choose more carefully according to what style he fancies.

What the fuck is this shit about realism?

 

[Gord]

Or you can just play the game, instead of min-maxing.

Not that an all-aug run isn't some interesting challenge in itself, but it will hardly happen if you just play.

What's more problematic is that some augs are simply almost useless, so you can safely ignore them. A rebalance would be good (and probably easy enough even in a small patch).

There's a small mod available, which makes all augs (esp. hacking) much more expensive, so you have to be more careful about what you choose. You might try that.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Gameplay wise, of course it makes sense. But it's funny as hell that you guys didn't jump on Andy's cock defending the GAMEPLAY decision behind Jensesn' predicament like you did with my note. then again ols game cannot possibly be bad and new one must be inherently worse lol!!!

Jesus jerking off in the shower! All I'm saying is I like to pick my upgrades. Jensen comes fully upgraded. He can, provided he collects enough praxis kits (which I hear there are enough of in the game) upgrade everything completely, whereas JC has to choose more carefully according to what style he fancies.

Though to be fair, when it came to augs it was painfully obvious that there was only one total set selection worth taking, only a few ones worth upgrading, and the rest were useless shit.

 

[SoupNazi]

I thought you were complaining about it from a different perspective, Andyman. I.e. that HR had a bad excuse for not having any augs. If you were just commenting on the possibility of acquiring all augs, then I guess I should say my bad.

Actually, I'm just gonna blame the internet. Fucking the internet.

 

[Andyman Messiah]

Or you can just play the game, instead of min-maxing.

I'm complaining about game design. Deus Ex is designed so you have to choose how to play, but DX:HR is designed so you can become a master of everything. I'm not a fan of that kind of thing.

I'll look into that mod the next time I give it a try, though. Might balance things more to my liking.

Though to be fair, when it came to augs it was painfully obvious that there was only one total set selection worth taking, only a few ones worth upgrading, and the rest were useless shit.

Agreed, but keep in mind that they're not useless to everyone.

SoupNazi: Somebody should put a stop to that damn internet, man!

 

[Gord]

I'm complaining about game design. Deus Ex is designed so you have to choose how to play, but DX:HR is designed so you can become a master of everything. I'm not a fan of that kind of thing.

I'll look into that mod the next time I give it a try, though. Might balance things more to my liking.

Admittedly it's rather easy to get most of the useful augs pretty soon, if you concentrate on them.
And the other ones, while some sound interesting, simply do not have enough impact.

Would help if e.g. sneaking without the silent running aug is getting really hard after Detroit, even when crouching(instead you aren't making any noice while crouching anyway, so why bother?).
Or if they had expanded the combat oriented augs a bit more.