Wrath of the cringefinder compilation thread

[rusty_shackleford]

btw, how is Gygax related to Pathfinder

"how is the person who created this thing I made a derivative of relevant when it's being critiqued?"

maybe in contrast it can show how shitty pathfinder is?

"Author would like to thank the alphabet for the kindly provided letters".

Do you have any substantial response to my arguments?

"I'm going to take dwarves and name them elves."
why?
"Because I'm soooo creative!"
that's dumb
"do you have any substantial response to my arguments?"

 

[JamesDixon]

gygax is rolling over in his grave at the thought of a demon begging for mercy at the prospect of being tortured

Paging JamesDixon (& Zed Duke of Banville) to confirm.

A demon would be wanting to be tortured as that's their kink. They love pain in both giving and receiving it. So rusty_shackleford is right that Gary would be turning over in his grave.

I still would like to see some rules (btw, how is Gygax related to Pathfinder, except being the inspirational All-Father figure or something) mentioning all demons or devils being immune to pain.
Another point is that demons, being chaotic evil creatures, revel in causing pain and suffering to everyone around them.
And so it happens, most of the time they are surrounded by other demons, lower and higher in status.
Would not it suck if they could not hurt each other, coz if they all have no fear of pain, it kind of makes toturing each other pointless.
Why would lower demons submit to the will of the higher ones?

AD&D 2E Monstrous Compendium for Baatezu.

Let's go back to AD&D 1E.

It is as I said it was. They don't fear death and will experience it willingly. Thus, they like to give and receive pain as it is their jam.

 

[Nortar]

gygax is rolling over in his grave at the thought of a demon begging for mercy at the prospect of being tortured

Paging JamesDixon (& Zed Duke of Banville) to confirm.

A demon would be wanting to be tortured as that's their kink. They love pain in both giving and receiving it. So rusty_shackleford is right that Gary would be turning over in his grave.

I still would like to see some rules (btw, how is Gygax related to Pathfinder, except being the inspirational All-Father figure or something) mentioning all demons or devils being immune to pain.
Another point is that demons, being chaotic evil creatures, revel in causing pain and suffering to everyone around them.
And so it happens, most of the time they are surrounded by other demons, lower and higher in status.
Would not it suck if they could not hurt each other, coz if they all have no fear of pain, it kind of makes toturing each other pointless.
Why would lower demons submit to the will of the higher ones?

AD&D 2E Monstrous Compendium for Baatezu.

View attachment 28843

Let's go back to AD&D 1E.

View attachment 28844

It is as I said it was. They don't fear death and will experience it willingly. Thus, they like to give and receive pain as it is their jam.

Informative. But once again, it's speculation based on personal preference.
A valid tactic, but not the winning agrument.
How "smart and strong" demons force their rule over "weaker and less intellegent", as that article mentiones?
If we accept the "they know no fear of pain and death" statement as a fact, it would ruin the whole hierarchy of demons and devils.

 

[JamesDixon]

Informative. But once again, it's speculation based on personal preference.

Funny how you missed the sentence that states, "The less intelligent will attack without question and fight until slain."

I have an award for you because you're a special kind of stupid.

Cherry picking an argument when the full rules are staring you right in the goddamn idiotic cunt fact is just plain retarded. I lost braincells here as did everyone else.

 

[Nortar]

Informative. But once again, it's speculation based on personal preference.

Funny how you missed the sentence that states, "The less intelligent will attack without question and fight until slain."

I have an award for you because you're a special kind of stupid.

View attachment 28845

Cherry picking an argument when the full rules are staring you right in the goddamn idiotic cunt fact is just plain retarded. I lost braincells here as did everyone else.

I see you're lacking mental fortitude to participate in a discussion and resorted to "mass retadring".
And that on a topic that is mererly curious, without any real stakes on the matter.
As such you've discredited yourself as a worthy collocutor.
I have no intentions of changing your opinions and you certainaly have not managed to change mine.

 

[JamesDixon]

I see you're lacking mental fortitude to participate in a discussion and resorted to "mass retadring" .
And that on a topic that is mererly curious, without any real stakes on the matter.
As such you've discredited yourself as a worthy collocutor.
I have no intentions of changing your opinions and you certainaly have not managed to change mine.

I don't deal with retards well. Especially ones that can't read and have nothing to defeat the facts presented. You asked for a cite from Gary Gygax and his rules. I gave it. Now you can shut the fuck up pretty princess and say you were wrong because you have exactly jack and shit to defeat the rules as presented.

Instead of being a royal douchebag you should accept the fact that I was being helpful to you in your request. Next time if you want to learn something then you do your own goddamn footwork you lazy son of a biscuit.

 

[Corbin Dallas Multipass]

Informative. But once again, it's speculation based on personal preference.

Funny how you missed the sentence that states, "The less intelligent will attack without question and fight until slain."

I have an award for you because you're a special kind of stupid.

View attachment 28845

Cherry picking an argument when the full rules are staring you right in the goddamn idiotic cunt fact is just plain retarded. I lost braincells here as did everyone else.

I see you're lacking mental fortitude to participate in a discussion and resorted to "mass retadring".
And that on a topic that is mererly curious, without any real stakes on the matter.
As such you've discredited yourself as a worthy collocutor.
I have no intentions of changing your opinions and you certainaly have not managed to change mine.

Probably everyone here's just too dumb to understand how you're so smart and right, it's not that your pedantic and unoriginal style of dishonest debate has been seen by everyone since they had to deal with some dumb ass know it all back in middle school or anything like that.

 

[Sarathiour]

As far as I know, pathfinder demon can be killed relatively easily, you're not just banishing them. Only demon lord got some kind of immortality.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

honestly a great addition to thread on how pathfinder managed to be even worse than wotc's "D&D"

 

[Alex]

Not the main feature, but ignoring for a second the whole issue of being immaterial (which, to be fair, is something no RPG gets right, as far as I know); what is a bit of cutting and punching compared to the tortures of hell (which, I would argue, they should carry with them wherever they go)?

So your ridiculing the dialog is not based on the rules or the setting,

I wasn't really ridiculing the dialogue, I just pointed out that it was in a way as silly as the other stuff. As an aside, I apologise if you felt I was belittling your own taste. It wasn't my intention, you are free to enjoy whatever you feel like. And if we are fair, at least the scene you posted didn't add weird sexual tones to what was happening like the ones Rusty posted.

As an aside, I might note I am not a fan of torture in games, and I certainly turned a P&P campaign to a sillier note when it showed up.

but your personal idea of how demons should behave?

Well, not my personal idea, but the general idea that people have from legends. And also how demons really behave, but that is probably off topic.

Well, okay then.
It's not the most objective take, but once again, I can relate, - not nearly enough RPG settings get the elves right and portray them as pansy faggots they are.
Good thing we figured out that your criticims is basically baseless though.

If you wanted an evil cowardly creature, why not use orcs instead? It wouldn't connote so many different things; a spiritual being among them.

 

[Nortar]

I see you're lacking mental fortitude to participate in a discussion and resorted to "mass retadring" .
And that on a topic that is mererly curious, without any real stakes on the matter.
As such you've discredited yourself as a worthy collocutor.
I have no intentions of changing your opinions and you certainaly have not managed to change mine.

I don't deal with retards well. Especially ones that can't read and have nothing to defeat the facts presented. You asked for a cite from Gary Gygax and his rules. I gave it. Now you can shut the fuck up pretty princess and say you were wrong because you have exactly jack and shit to defeat the rules as presented.

Instead of being a royal douchebag you should accept the fact that I was being helpful to you in your request. Next time if you want to learn something then you do your own goddamn footwork you lazy son of a biscuit.

You seem upset.
I read your rule-pics, and found them while not irrelevant, still not persuasive enough.
To which I provided my agruments.
And then you started acting as a buthurt snowflake, instead of keeping an interesting discussion.

 

[Pink Eye]

If you wanted an evil cowardly creature, why not use orcs instead?

No, goblins! They're so funny and cute they're universally accepted as a great way to parody fantasy settings - or as dum-dum side kicks who serve a scary lich king.

 

[Corbin Dallas Multipass]

Not the main feature, but ignoring for a second the whole issue of being immaterial (which, to be fair, is something no RPG gets right, as far as I know); what is a bit of cutting and punching compared to the tortures of hell (which, I would argue, they should carry with them wherever they go)?

So your ridiculing the dialog is not based on the rules or the setting,

I wasn't really ridiculing the dialogue, I just pointed out that it was in a way as silly as the other stuff. As an aside, I apologise if you felt I was belittling your own taste. It wasn't my intention, you are free to enjoy whatever you feel like. And if we are fair, at least the scene you posted didn't add weird sexual tones to what was happening like the ones Rusty posted.

As an aside, I might note I am not a fan of torture in games, and I certainly turned a P&P campaign to a sillier note when it showed up.

but your personal idea of how demons should behave?

Well, not my personal idea, but the general idea that people have from legends. And also how demons really behave, but that is probably off topic.

Well, okay then.
It's not the most objective take, but once again, I can relate, - not nearly enough RPG settings get the elves right and portray them as pansy faggots they are.
Good thing we figured out that your criticims is basically baseless though.

If you wanted an evil cowardly creature, why not use orcs instead? It wouldn't connote so many different things; a spiritual being among them.

Why would you respond so politely to someone basically spitting in your face? Do you have a humiliation fetish?

 

[Sarathiour]

honestly a great addition to thread on how pathfinder managed to be even worse than wotc's "D&D"

It started as a fantasy kitchen sink, and then became mega-pozzed, courtesy from Paizo.

I don't know what you are expecting.

 

[JamesDixon]

To which I provided my agruments.

You presented nothing but your idiotic and worthless opinion. I could care less what you think or your opinion. If I wanted your opinion I would give it to you. There is the matter of page 18 of the Monster Manual I from AD&D 1E that has the Succubus listed. Oh let me guess in your retarded opinion they don't count either huh? You do realize that the pages I showed covered ALL of the demons in those books. Shall you try again moron?

 

[Nortar]

Well, okay then.
It's not the most objective take, but once again, I can relate, - not nearly enough RPG settings get the elves right and portray them as pansy faggots they are.
Good thing we figured out that your criticims is basically baseless though.

If you wanted an evil cowardly creature, why not use orcs instead? It wouldn't connote so many different things; a spiritual being among them.

That particular scene happens in the Abyss.
The demon in the question is a kitchen supervisor (a damn cook!) for mortal slaves who toil in the mines digging out some plot-important-shit.
He's lowest of the low in demon hierarchy, snitchy and treaterous, he acts accordingly.

But back to the demons in Pathdinder.
In WotR there's a whole "demon city" inhabited by "demon commoners" who gather in gaggles and gossip at corners. The closest analogy would be Sigil.
I'm not very fond of the idea of "in-humanizing" infernal creatures mysef, but it is what it is in this setting.

 

[JamesDixon]

If you wanted an evil cowardly creature, why not use orcs instead?

No, goblins! They're so funny and cute they're universally accepted as a great way to parody fantasy settings - or as dum-dum side kicks who serve a scary lich king.

Just wait until I John Wick one in my AD&D game.

 

[Pink Eye]

I'm not going to pretend that I know Sigil's setting, but from what I played of Planescape I got the impression that demons were mostly rare - probably cause they get into fights lots. I think only the ones who knew how to mind their manners were allowed into Sigil. For example, I very much remember those two demon bros chilling at Tavern who were quite eloquent and respectful towards Nameless One.

Also Lady of Pain is probably quick to kick rule breakers out.

 

[Alex]

Not the main feature, but ignoring for a second the whole issue of being immaterial (which, to be fair, is something no RPG gets right, as far as I know); what is a bit of cutting and punching compared to the tortures of hell (which, I would argue, they should carry with them wherever they go)?

So your ridiculing the dialog is not based on the rules or the setting,

I wasn't really ridiculing the dialogue, I just pointed out that it was in a way as silly as the other stuff. As an aside, I apologise if you felt I was belittling your own taste. It wasn't my intention, you are free to enjoy whatever you feel like. And if we are fair, at least the scene you posted didn't add weird sexual tones to what was happening like the ones Rusty posted.

As an aside, I might note I am not a fan of torture in games, and I certainly turned a P&P campaign to a sillier note when it showed up.

but your personal idea of how demons should behave?

Well, not my personal idea, but the general idea that people have from legends. And also how demons really behave, but that is probably off topic.

Well, okay then.
It's not the most objective take, but once again, I can relate, - not nearly enough RPG settings get the elves right and portray them as pansy faggots they are.
Good thing we figured out that your criticims is basically baseless though.

If you wanted an evil cowardly creature, why not use orcs instead? It wouldn't connote so many different things; a spiritual being among them.

Why would you respond so politely to someone basically spitting in your face? Do you have a humiliation fetish?

No, just a phlegmatic personality.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

gygax is rolling over in his grave at the thought of a demon begging for mercy at the prospect of being tortured

Paging JamesDixon (& Zed Duke of Banville) to confirm.

According to the AD&D Monster Manual (already posted in this thread as an image):
Demons are chaotic and evil; the smarter and stronger rule those of their kind who are weaker and less intelligent. The less intelligent will attack without question and fight until slain. Demons of type V and above are not actually slain when their material form is killed in combat; their material form being removed from their use, the demon in question is thereby forced back to the plane from whence it originally came, there to remain until a century has passed or until another aids it to go forth again. However, if demons are encountered on their own plane, they can be slain. No demon can ever be subdued. All are able to divide their attacks amongst two or even three opponents if their means allow.
Demons will never willingly serve anyone or anything. If forced to serve through magic or threat they will continually seek a way to slay their master/captor."

This seems a bit contradictory, since it appears that demons that can be unwillingly forced to serve someone via "magic or threat" although just prior to that is a statement that "no demon can ever be subdued". Either way, it's ridiculous to think of any demon folding so easily as in that scene from the computer game; any effective means of forcing a demon to serve should be far more severe and likely repugnant to characters of good alignment.

 

[Corbin Dallas Multipass]

I... guess the idea is under forced servitude they're still not "subdued" because they'll try to kill their captor at their first opportunity?

But yeah, the writing there isn't... great...

I mean, what does it mean that "All demons are able to divide their attacks amongst 2 or 3 opponents if their means allow"? So... not all demons then? What exactly does dividing ones attacks entail? How do you know if "means allow" or not?

I mean, shit, on this very forum I've seen multiple posters divide their attacks against like... 10 opponents at once!

 

[Alex]

Well, okay then.
It's not the most objective take, but once again, I can relate, - not nearly enough RPG settings get the elves right and portray them as pansy faggots they are.
Good thing we figured out that your criticims is basically baseless though.

If you wanted an evil cowardly creature, why not use orcs instead? It wouldn't connote so many different things; a spiritual being among them.

That particular scene happens in the Abyss.
The demon in the question is a kitchen supervisor (a damn cook!) for mortal slaves who toil in the mines digging out some plot-important-shit.
He's lowest of the low in demon hierarchy, snitchy and treaterous, he acts accordingly.

But back to the demons in Pathdinder.
In WotR there's a whole "demon city" inhabited by "demon commoners" who gather in gaggles and gossip at corners. The closest analogy would be Sigil.
I'm not very fond of the idea of "in-humanizing" infernal creatures mysef, but it is what it is in this setting.

Who dares to summon Togmarak, saucier of the 3rd layer of the infernal wastes? Do you seek the secret of my excruciating hot sauce? Know, mortal, that hundreds of souls cried in anguish under the pain of my cooking. Know, that should you want its secret, you must then imbibe it yourself. However, know, that it will not stop burning, not even after you have swallowed it! *evil laughter*.

 

[The_Mask]

Seelah would definitely lose her paladin powers if she was at my table

Aeon gaze reveals what Owlcat would've done, if Paizo wouldn't pour woke shit down their throats.

 

[The_Mask]

I'm not going to pretend that I know Sigil's setting, but from what I played of Planescape I got the impression that demons were mostly rare - probably cause they get into fights lots. I think only the ones who knew how to mind their manners were allowed into Sigil. For example, I very much remember those two demon bros chilling at Tavern who were quite eloquent and respectful towards Nameless One.

Also Lady of Pain is probably quick to kick rule breakers out.

The deal there is that in the Outlands things start to get dicey the closer and closer you get to its center. Magic, both arcane and divine, as well as potions and literally everything magical, starts to wane. In there everyone is on equal footing, because they're just left with their muscles, and maybe their weapons (if they bring any). And so, you can kill each other there, no one said it's not possible, but the laws are... :D ... very similar to the Codex:

• don't touch the dabuses (Codex Admins)
• don't mess up the place (this one is obvious)
• don't worship The Lady of Pain
• no more than 15 organizations (Codex Mods)

If you play P:T, and you try to kill some of its more volatile denizens, you will find out that you can actually kill on the streets of Sigil. In fact there's a tiny exploit there where you can kill up to 5 or 6 demons, if you taunt them, and gain a bunch of exp that way. Problem is that if you push your luck, and try to kill too many, The Lady of Pain will prematurely end your adventure.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I'm not going to pretend that I know Sigil's setting, but from what I played of Planescape I got the impression that demons were mostly rare - probably cause they get into fights lots. I think only the ones who knew how to mind their manners were allowed into Sigil. For example, I very much remember those two demon bros chilling at Tavern who were quite eloquent and respectful towards Nameless One.

Also Lady of Pain is probably quick to kick rule breakers out.

Those were Baatezu(devils), not Tanar'ri(demons)

I couldn't tell you how many demons there are in PST but I know it's at best a couple. Devils are much more common.
also, Sigil is neutral ground. Due to the inherent chaoticness of demons, this would explain why there's so few as they'd be incapable of abiding by the rules and swiftly removed.

as a side note, I always preferred Tanar'ri/Baatezu over demons/devils tbh.