X-COM XCOM 2 + War of the Chosen Expansion Thread

[negator2vc]

XCOM's Jake Solomon is swapping turn-based tactics for life sims, and he's not coming back​

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/jake-solomon-interview-gdc-2023

No wonder that half (the bad half) of Marvel's Midnight Suns was life sim .

 

[OSK]

He even argues that Julian Gollop's original X-COM "was way more of a simulation than a strategy [game]."

Man who made bastardized sequel now wishes he had made a faithful sequel.

A more faithful sequel likely wouldn't have been as popular and wouldn't have revived turn-based tactics (and RPG) titles.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

i finally tried some of this "war of the chosen", allegedly the finest xcom has ever been, the cream of the crop of the expansions so much that it'd put to shame witcher 3's.
really? like, for real? are you serious? this stuff is everything x-com and even xcom shouldn't be. handholding, handholding everywhere, 4 tutorial missions in a row and they don't seem towant to stop. no strategy or tactics involved in killing the superdupermegaaliens of death, only gaming the game. the whole game has been turned from "poor humans struggling to defend themselves" to "abuse these superheroes powers, fuck humans". bugs galore, animations out of synch or not playing at all, the extra attack on zombie kill disappears turning the mission into a slog, while the other one, "extra attack on flank" never worked in the first place. by the third mission every bit of mystery is lost, with aliens now displaying very human behaviour, in the form of mustache-twirling villains, being shown in the most secret place no human should ever see (which, by the way, doesn't even look alien at all).
i hurt myself with all this facepalming.

 

[Grunker]

allegedly the finest xcom has ever been

says who

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

allegedly the finest xcom has ever been

says who

I do, for a start. It's BY FAR the best the Firaxis formula has ever been.
Then again not being terminally autistic I'm not particularly bothered by the "flavor" and I care mostly about how enjoyable the game can be mechanically.
Also, because not being mongoloid I don't activate nor play "four tutorials in a row".

 

[Grunker]

allegedly the finest xcom has ever been

says who

It's BY FAR the best the Firaxis formula has ever been.

i agree

now note the differences between the two bolded subjects

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

i agree

now note the differences between the two bolded subjects

There's no real difference because XCOM written without the "-" has always been the Firaxis one.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

xpiratez pushed me back to lwotc.
third month, i'm routinely emptying missions populated by 3 or 4 pods made of a single flying thing or hardly more than 2-3 enemies. easy stuff.
supplies defense mission. the enemy fields right from the start multiple pods with robots, and the assassin, who spawns right in the middle of my local rebels. it's a slaughter, he alone wipes them all but at least i manage to wi-no, reinforcements go from green to red. no less than 20 enemies drop down, of the thoughest kind, multiple mecs, snakes and sectoids, no way to retreat.
alt-f4. fuck this retarded shit.

 

[Ash]

Someone should probably make a mod that decreases pod size (splits nearby undiscovered pod up into two smaller with separate patrol routes, one guaranteed to steer away) when the player is already engaged in a difficult/sizable pod.

I loved the shit out of this game + modded + wotc, but a good number of iron man runs were ruined by the unforgiving pod system. That and the shitty panic system* + overly brutal objective turns counter.

*Panic should reduce stats and have an extra willpower-dependent chance to lose control for 1 turn, instead of guaranteed control loss for multiple turns. then the base chance of panic happening could maybe even be increased slightly. Vanilla it's random bullshit instead of random interesting.

 

[Ironmonk]

Unfortunately, while there is a lot of good mods that improve the game and allow everybody to play the game the way they wanted, most of the time it's impossible get a balanced gaming experience from start to finish.

I tried really hard to build modlists for my playthroughs that were balanced as much as possible, but while sometimes its achievable, it doesn't stays that way the further you play, either by becoming too easy or impossible.

 

[Falksi]

Someone should probably make a mod that decreases pod size (splits nearby undiscovered pod up into two smaller with separate patrol routes, one guaranteed to steer away) when the player is already engaged in a difficult/sizable pod.

I loved the shit out of this game + modded + wotc, but a good number of iron man runs were ruined by the unforgiving pod system. That and the shitty panic system* + overly brutal objective turns counter.

*Panic should reduce stats and have an extra willpower-dependent chance to lose control for 1 turn, instead of guaranteed control loss for multiple turns. then the base chance of panic happening could maybe even be increased slightly. Vanilla it's random bullshit instead of random interesting.

It's a good suggestion, but tbh I think the whole POD thing just gets old and too predictable the more you play.

Whilst I don't think the X-Com reboots have come anywhere near replicating the brilliance of the original 90's games, I've definitely enjoyed playing them and would welcome a sequel which fucks off the whole POD system.

 

[gurugeorge]

Someone should probably make a mod that decreases pod size (splits nearby undiscovered pod up into two smaller with separate patrol routes, one guaranteed to steer away) when the player is already engaged in a difficult/sizable pod.

I loved the shit out of this game + modded + wotc, but a good number of iron man runs were ruined by the unforgiving pod system. That and the shitty panic system* + overly brutal objective turns counter.

*Panic should reduce stats and have an extra willpower-dependent chance to lose control for 1 turn, instead of guaranteed control loss for multiple turns. then the base chance of panic happening could maybe even be increased slightly. Vanilla it's random bullshit instead of random interesting.

I disagree, being wary of revealing fog of war after the first move in an engagement is the number one rule of XCOM, and it was always a check on getting over-excited in a given engagement - i.e., like 6 or 7 times out of 10 (because of the small maps) the game would punish you for forgetting that rule (as everyone does, now and then - e.g. when you are sooooo tempted by that juicy flank move ).

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

enough is enough. for as careful (read: as annoyingly slow) as one can play, some missions, too many missions, are not meant to be won. and even if you manage to juggle all the numbers your way (which has nothing to do with strategy or tactics, and true options open way too late during a game), then an enemy snipes one of your men in full cover from the other side of visual range, which is usually a 0% shot. there's no amount of strategy or tactics which can help you when you face multiple pods and every single enemy can shoot at you from right out your overwatch range thus making even retreating pointless. there's no amount of strategy or tactics involved in facing an enemy whose shots are all 100%, or another who can chase your men faster than you can move them away.
i don't remember lw2 being this retarded (other than for the ship defense mission which was ridiculously impossible).

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

enough is enough. for as careful (read: as annoyingly slow) as one can play, some missions, too many missions, are not meant to be won.

CUT

i don't remember lw2 being this retarded (other than for the ship defense mission which was ridiculously impossible).

I finished this game multiple times playing at Legendary. Several times even at Legendary-ironman.
I never crossed a scenario that wasn't "meant to be won". In fact, i never failed a mission in multiple playthrough.
As you start to understand the system it becomes clearer and clearer that if you know what you are doing you should be seldom be relying on chances at all and you can play the entire game basically as a deterministic experience.

For someone who spent years pretending to have the street cred of the genuine hardcore player is honestly baffling how much you are whining about a game system that (like it or not) you clearly have a poor understanding of.

And incidentally Long War 2 is the epitomane of retarded game design from "modders who are trying too hard".

 

[gurugeorge]

enough is enough. for as careful (read: as annoyingly slow) as one can play, some missions, too many missions, are not meant to be won. and even if you manage to juggle all the numbers your way (which has nothing to do with strategy or tactics, and true options open way too late during a game), then an enemy snipes one of your men in full cover from the other side of visual range, which is usually a 0% shot. there's no amount of strategy or tactics which can help you when you face multiple pods and every single enemy can shoot at you from right out your overwatch range thus making even retreating pointless. there's no amount of strategy or tactics involved in facing an enemy whose shots are all 100%, or another who can chase your men faster than you can move them away.
i don't remember lw2 being this retarded (other than for the ship defense mission which was ridiculously impossible).

If you want to git gud, check out Beaglerush's Youtube series playing LW2 - he really is a master at the game, and makes it look ridiculously easy, but he articulates his thought processes very well, and it's kind of a masterclass.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

i watched some of these videos, "i am retarded?" meme from quantum leap firmly in mind. i'm starting to think these people work like those who make weird impossible tricks, they show the succesful one but not the uninterrupted two years of attempts before. it never occurs to them to get a 20 strong reinforcement spawn, they never miss 90% four times in a row and when the fifth finally lands it's a graze, i've heard one say "6 on overwatch, i expect these reinforcements to wipe" and they all land their hits but when i try it and the reinforcements land in front of my guys i get 4 misses and two "haha fuck you", i've still to see they get sniped from the melee chosen with a rifle halfway across the map and manage to kill a man behind full cover almost on perfect 90° approach.
it's either like this or i'm not human and instead work on an improbability engine.

 

[gurugeorge]

i watched some of these videos, "i am retarded?" meme from quantum leap firmly in mind. i'm starting to think these people work like those who make weird impossible tricks, they show the succesful one but not the uninterrupted two years of attempts before. it never occurs to them to get a 20 strong reinforcement spawn, they never miss 90% four times in a row and when the fifth finally lands it's a graze, i've heard one say "6 on overwatch, i expect these reinforcements to wipe" and they all land their hits but when i try it and the reinforcements land in front of my guys i get 4 misses and two "haha fuck you", i've still to see they get sniped from the melee chosen with a rifle halfway across the map and manage to kill a man behind full cover almost on perfect 90° approach.
it's either like this or i'm not human and instead work on an improbability engine.

It's not that hard, just the usual for tactical games: 1) (specific to the XCOM games) NEVER (howsoever you might be tempted) reveal fog of war after your first move in an encounter (why? because the game is tuned for you versus one enemy pod, if you accidentally activate a second one while fighting the first, you will almost certainly lose), 2) Positioning, 3) patience, canvass ALL your options before committing, 4) Have at least a plan B at the back of your mind for if Plan A fails.

Do check out Beaglerush's that I linked though, he's one of those people who has the gift of being able to talk and play at the same time, and usually outlines his reasoning - you can learn a lot from him.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

you're not listening.

 

[gurugeorge]

you're not listening.

I am listening, there's no such thing as a game treating you especially badly, you just have to learn its funny little ways.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

you keep not listening.

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

It's not that hard, just the usual for tactical games: 1) (specific to the XCOM games) NEVER (howsoever you might be tempted) reveal fog of war after your first move in an encounter (why? because the game is tuned for you versus one enemy pod, if you accidentally activate a second one while fighting the first, you will almost certainly lose),

For the record, that's ALSO not entirely trye, or at least true only in the beginning.
By the mid-late game you typically become abundantly capable of dealing even with unplanned activations (IF you know what you are doing and didn't fuck up in other ways), since you get tools and abilities that allow the team to A) rarely ever rely on chances B) to deal with bad scenarios with containment measures.

This is a bunch of missions I recorded playing a Legendary a couple of years ago.
Especially second and third have plenty of accidental activations that were dealt with swiftly.









And to address Hellfire's suggestion "These people selectively post only the lucky chances" they are all a sigle-take unedited recording.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

i've never been a fan of xcom, but long war added the features needed to turn a blind eye to its dumbed down ruleset.
i never liked xcom 2, which was weighted down by too many unneded new constrictions, ultimately and irredeemably ruining the game. lw2 should had made the same lw did to xcom, but to me it didn't feel enough.
after hearing all the praise for both wotc and lwotc i thought it was finally time to enjoy this. boy i was wrong. i don't like what the expansion added, i despise how the mod changed it.
bonding is just dumb, instead of managing a bunch of teams you're now micromanaging throngs of couples. new enemies are dumb, or openly irritating like the priest who all it does is taking away one of your men to overwatch sitting next to him. new items are unnecessary, there's just no space for anything other than flashbangs to remove skills of those who can't be outright killed. balance is off, it's either a rush for psi with two labs or mag weapons, having to build weapons individually is an unaffordable resource drain for intermediate equipment. past early game scientists and engineers are already a luxury.
chosens are the worst, they're the exasperation of the need to game the game.
this mod is norfleet's dream came true.

 

[Spectacle]

I wonder why they haven't made an XCOM3? Every single turn-based tactical game out there these days get's compared to XCOM, so you'd think a sequel would get enough attention that it would be a slam-dunk sales wise.

 

[Jaedar]

I wonder why they haven't made an XCOM3? Every single turn-based tactical game out there these days get's compared to XCOM, so you'd think a sequel would get enough attention that it would be a slam-dunk sales wise.

They made the marvel thing instead. And it flopped hard.

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

I wonder why they haven't made an XCOM3? Every single turn-based tactical game out there these days get's compared to XCOM, so you'd think a sequel would get enough attention that it would be a slam-dunk sales wise.

They made the marvel thing instead. And it flopped hard.

Funny thing is that they probably thought "That's it, this is where we make the jump from things for nerd into the mainstream".
Instead fucking Midnight Suns barely made one tenth of XCOM 2' numbers on Steam.
And while it had SOME redeeming qualities (parts of the combat mechanics turned out to be genuinely fun to engage with), it wasn't even overall a better game by a long shot. For a start, the whole dating sim/social side of the game was a massive step back from the already-streamlined base management of WOTC.