X-COM XCOM 2 + War of the Chosen Expansion Thread

[Jimmious]

A little update (for those folks interested in) about the game time calculation.

Seems like they abandoned the GMT system (seen in almost all previews) and gone for a more straight actual time, so that the clock timer (on the bottom right) will be always recalculated to reflect the Actual position of the avenger, always.

I like it, it's more clear

Also:

Mark Nauta ‏@M_Nauta 39m39 minutes ago
it's been fixed.

 

[Mazisky]

NIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIICE!!!!!!! )))))

Also, Thank you so much for support Jimmious, really appreciated.

 

[Jimmious]

NIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIICE!!!!!!! )))))

Also, Thank you so much for support Jimmious, really appreciated.

 

[Mazisky]

A little update (for those folks interested in) about the game time calculation.

Seems like they abandoned the GMT system (seen in almost all previews) and gone for a more straight actual time, so that the clock timer (on the bottom right) will be always recalculated to reflect the Actual position of the avenger, always.

I like it, it's more clear

That seems even more confusing, from a simulationist perspective you'd be losing and gaining time depending on the direction of travel, which could throw calculations off since the game runs on the advent schedule.

I don't get it.

The time is calculated on Avenger start and arrival.

You can lose or gain time on advent schedule in terms of few hours if going to the east or west, not a big deal

Also, you can see by eye what time is it where u are, even on missions u re going to do

 

[Mazisky]

A little update (for those folks interested in) about the game time calculation.

Seems like they abandoned the GMT system (seen in almost all previews) and gone for a more straight actual time, so that the clock timer (on the bottom right) will be always recalculated to reflect the Actual position of the avenger, always.

I like it, it's more clear

That seems even more confusing, from a simulationist perspective you'd be losing and gaining time depending on the direction of travel, which could throw calculations off since the game runs on the advent schedule.

I don't get it.

The time is calculated on Avenger start and arrival.

You can lose or gain time on advent schedule in terms of few hours if going to the east or west, not a big deal

Also, you can see by eye what time is it where u are, even on missions u re going to do

I think it's pointless to speculate on the mechanics of the game before release, but I think players generally prefer more accuracy in knowing exactly how much time is left until a deadline, which is why LW introduced timers to the geoscape. Having a displayed time that changes with timezone at your location messes with the player's understanding.

That's a fair point.

On the other side, i guess it will be an easy moddable stuff to sync the clock in a fixed position

btw, i still prefere the actual time cause of dynamic lighting, otherwise it would be a bit weird to read 2:00 PM and see the avenger background at night

They did put a lot effort to create many different backgrounds based on time of day and terrain you are, minor things i know, but i really like them..in EU those things were completely absent

 

[Zeriel]

A little update (for those folks interested in) about the game time calculation.

Seems like they abandoned the GMT system (seen in almost all previews) and gone for a more straight actual time, so that the clock timer (on the bottom right) will be always recalculated to reflect the Actual position of the avenger, always.

I like it, it's more clear

That seems even more confusing, from a simulationist perspective you'd be losing and gaining time depending on the direction of travel, which could throw calculations off since the game runs on the advent schedule.

That was what I was saying too, but people were so insistent on calling it "bugged" and "broken".

 

[Mazisky]

A little update (for those folks interested in) about the game time calculation.

Seems like they abandoned the GMT system (seen in almost all previews) and gone for a more straight actual time, so that the clock timer (on the bottom right) will be always recalculated to reflect the Actual position of the avenger, always.

I like it, it's more clear

That seems even more confusing, from a simulationist perspective you'd be losing and gaining time depending on the direction of travel, which could throw calculations off since the game runs on the advent schedule.

That was what I was saying too, but people were so insistent on calling it "bugged" and "broken".

Well btw, my complain was about having random cycle instead of being tied to something.

It was fine with GMT time too if cycle was tied to it, but it was completely broken (aka random)

if they go back with GMT clock and then sync geoscape cycle (and avenger background) to it, i'm fine

 

[Raghar]

You've got to be kidding me.

I've played both games for years. Every forum I go to people agree that TFTD is much, much more difficult. In fact, Microprose made it harder on purpose because due to the Beginner bug in EU, people demanded the game to be more difficult, so they obliged.

This is a severe case of trying too hard to look cool on the internet, which is sad since it's about a game older than most of our posters.

Can someone explain me the level of butthurt there? You played original first, of course the second one would be easier, especially at start, when you know your stuff. Flying stuff is easy to hit because it's less likely to be behind some obstacle. And about these units you talked about... They have another weakness than the launcher, but you'd need to be psycho to use that, but it's fun.

Trying to find a last troop on toilet on a ship in long mission is tedious however. But I will not call the game more difficult just for THAT. (Third game had more nasty things than mere having missions that were tedious. Brainsuckers that can jump to 8th floor. Completely lethal in TB mode.)

Average Manatee talked about majority of other reasons already, so I wouldn't reiterate him.

And yes I played Dark Souls, and I finished it.

Spoiler

I tried capra 60x before beating him up by jumping over the second dog rolling somehow, killing dogs, then dodging and evading capra. I also took 3x on S and O, then managed to respawn them somehow (I moved stuff to new HD, but it was that game I played last.), then needed whole night to kill them, and was forced to take Sun bro (because it was morning already and I needed to get SOME sleep). I played Keyboard only, and no blood stain retrieval, blind playtrough as much as possible. (Thought you know how it's with bugs and evading info about games when you are on Internet.) I think I killed Sif on first try, in Gold Hemmed robes with Priscila Scythe. And I killed last boss on first try AND kept Sun bro alive in that fight. When I fought Manus I did crazy shit in Havel's armor with bastard sword with INT 32, Manus didn't stood still for Fire Storm, and I didn't have enough casting of Soul spear. Majority of first half I was in hollow soldier armor because I think it looks cute, with balder shield, and magic longsword.

Bragging about number of deaths? Is there counter somewhere? Would a disabled be able even beat reasonably skilled in number of deaths? I have 27 APM in RTS games for a reason.

 

[Zanzoken]

I'm not very knowledgeable about some of the game's finer points -- can somebody give a quick primer on "pod activation"? Like I get the gist of how it works, but why is it even a thing?

Why don't the aliens just patrol around the map or stand guard at important locations, and then if they see you on their turn they jump into cover and shoot? I don't understand why they need different mechanics than the player.

Aliens patrol in groups out in the open and only get their full AI abilities once they've "activated" (by seeing one of your soldiers). On activation they get a free move (whether its in the middle of your turn or during theirs) to get into cover but they are unable to shoot or carry out most other special actions until their next turn (aliens that don't need cover can use the free action to overwatch).

Presumably the 2-action/cover/overwatch/unit abilities systems make it pretty much impossible to create an X-Com-like AI that is always active and independent. At least I can't think of a way that doesn't have gaping holes. But once the AI is active it operates under similar mechanics to the player (it still works like original X-Com though in that if it can see one of your soldiers it knows where all of them are).

Just think, if the AI wasn't in cover you'd kill it. How does it know what cover to take prior to battle, without cheating and reading the player's position? And even if you do solve this, does it just stand around overwatching? That makes it suicide for the early game and just forces players to use lightning reflexes to scout everywhere later.

Thinking about it a little more. Don't the stealth mechanics in XCOM 2 offer an interesting pathway around this? Imagine this scenario:

The aliens are placed in squads all over the map. 3 or 4 to a squad (which increases in mid- and late-game) and quite a few of them. Some are patrolling, some are fixed at important locations (objectives, building entrances, etc). Enemy squads have LOS cones that the player can see and avoid.

The mission starts in a "cold" state. The AI doesn't know where XCOM is and no aliens are in cover. So for this part of the mission, XCOM has a lot of options while sneaking around the map. It can gather intel on the objective, infiltrate deeper into enemy territory, or set up an ambush. Or it may eff up and get discovered, losing the element of surprise completely.

Regardless, after first contact the mission changes to a "hot" state and all aliens know where XCOM is. Enemies jump in cover and use cover mechanics for the rest of the mission. Patrols all descend on XCOM's position, fixed squads are reinforced within a couple turns, and more search-and-destroy reinforcements drop soon after. Basically once shit starts popping off, XCOM only has a few turns to meet their objectives and extract. Otherwise there will just be wave after wave of bad guys and you get overwhelmed.

From what I've seen of the X2 gameplay it seems like they kinda moved in this direction, except the pressure to move and extract comes from arbitrary turn limits, and the aliens don't really use their strength that well in tandem. The encounter difficulty also doesn't seem to ramp up very much after concealment is broken.

 

[Jimmious]

Less than two weeks and we'll all be able to judge the difficulty first hand
Don't forget that the press it playing a 2-3 month old version of the game

 

[Zombra]

Imagine this scenario

Sounds pretty bad unless the combat mechanics were redone from the ground up and aliens were nerfed to hell, or it was redesigned as a true stealth game. The entire map coming after me all at once sounds "realistic" but not very fun. I think the turn limit is a more than adequate way to keep the player off his ass, don't need to have 20 units all attacking at once if he ever breaks concealment.

 

[Average Manatee]

The balance of movement vs. shooting is too lopsided for that to work. When you can cross half the map in a single turn or fire your gun once, notifying the enemies of your position and being bumrushed is suicide. There's not much you could do when every enemy on the map can reach you in 2 or 3 turns.

 

[Zanzoken]

Yeah that's true. Obviously it would need extensive tuning but I think it could work. The pods thing has just always seemed janky to me, but then again so are many other aspects of the design.

I had a real love/hate relationship with EU/EW -- guessing this will probably be the same.

 

[Zombra]

So does anyone know what the name ADVENT stands for? Anything? How about EXALT, for that matter? XCOM is short for "extraterrestrial combat unit" but I don't know if these other names mean something.

 

[Doktor Best]

You've got to be kidding me.

I've played both games for years. Every forum I go to people agree that TFTD is much, much more difficult. In fact, Microprose made it harder on purpose because due to the Beginner bug in EU, people demanded the game to be more difficult, so they obliged.

This is a severe case of trying too hard to look cool on the internet, which is sad since it's about a game older than most of our posters.

Well without the bug the games difficulties are about the same. If you turn TFTD to beginner mode you also get a quite easy game.

 

[kyrub]

That said, the things that are legitimately harder in TFTD:

I find two factors that make TFTD really harder in the early to mid-game than UFO (in the mid-late game the armor rules in TFTD as you said correctly, but ehm, late game is really easy in both).

1) complicated terrain maps. In UFO, there are hardly any terrains with obstructed view. Scout and Snipe is extremely easy, and boring tactics. In TFTD, you can get very nasty maps, like corals, where you have problems even with tossing grenades in emergency cases. Of course, in UFO a base defense, or a terror mission (for less experienced player) can screw the odds, but in general the maps are cake. I got wiped out several times in TFTD by simple Aquatoids in bad terrrain. Plus the USOs are a pain, as you said.

2) TFTD has an erratic AI movement. It's quite unpredictable, where the enemies move next (it may be some AI pathfinding bug). And there is some kind of strange bugged "I sit quietly and wait to shoot you in the back" AI tactic. In UFO, the units always walk out and are super easy to pick up from distance. This makes a huge difference.


Of course, when you replay TFTD for 20th time, you already know the terrains and the hiding places for TFTD units... then it does not work. But for occasional players, TFTD will feel harder.

 

[ArchAngel]

Does TFTD also have "after turn 20 aliens move out of cover and go bum rush your Skyranger?"

 

[Alienman]

You know what makes TFTD harder? The lovecraftian horror theme

Walking into a barn blasting aliens is one thing, but sending aquanauts deep down in the sea into old forgotten ships and what not is true nerve-racking horror. Just think about. Sure, the men we get are elite, but I have hard time believing they have any true experience in underwater combat. And here they are expecting to perform under water and kill totally unknown species of aliens with harpoon weapons, in the aliens home environment (often in complete darkness).

Spoiler

 

[Average Manatee]

2) TFTD has an erratic AI movement. It's quite unpredictable, where the enemies move next (it may be some AI pathfinding bug). And there is some kind of strange bugged "I sit quietly and wait to shoot you in the back" AI tactic. In UFO, the units always walk out and are super easy to pick up from distance. This makes a huge difference.

Of course, when you replay TFTD for 20th time, you already know the terrains and the hiding places for TFTD units... then it does not work. But for occasional players, TFTD will feel harder.

Funny thing, I always experienced this in X-Com too. I remember sectoids on medium/large scouts constantly using their power source for cover, destroying it with reaction fire as soon as they saw me, taking out the whole ship and everything in it. It makes sense that aliens would hide and that the turn 20 rule would only apply to units outside the UFO. I don't know if it was intended or not though, I played the Windows version (with the fixed difficulty bug) so I assumed it was.

OpenXcom seems to take the 'always moving' AI (easy to pick up on motion tracker) for both games, and since aliens come out of the UFO on turn 20 you don't even have to go in after them if you don't want to. Which feels pretty cheesy IMO, to just be able to line up a few proximity grenades and wait. I try to invade UFOs if I get the chance.

 

[Zeriel]

2) TFTD has an erratic AI movement. It's quite unpredictable, where the enemies move next (it may be some AI pathfinding bug). And there is some kind of strange bugged "I sit quietly and wait to shoot you in the back" AI tactic. In UFO, the units always walk out and are super easy to pick up from distance. This makes a huge difference.

Of course, when you replay TFTD for 20th time, you already know the terrains and the hiding places for TFTD units... then it does not work. But for occasional players, TFTD will feel harder.

Funny thing, I always experienced this in X-Com too. I remember sectoids on medium/large scouts constantly using their power source for cover, destroying it with reaction fire as soon as they saw me, taking out the whole ship and everything in it. It makes sense that aliens would hide and that the turn 20 rule would only apply to units outside the UFO. I don't know if it was intended or not though, I played the Windows version (with the fixed difficulty bug) so I assumed it was.

OpenXcom seems to take the 'always moving' AI (easy to pick up on motion tracker) for both games, and since aliens come out of the UFO on turn 20 you don't even have to go in after them if you don't want to. Which feels pretty cheesy IMO, to just be able to line up a few proximity grenades and wait. I try to invade UFOs if I get the chance.

Yeah, I don't know what he is talking about. UFO Defense had that AI pattern too, Gollop even talked about how it was implemented, how the AI was designed to be unpredictable even if that made it more dumb than it would be otherwise, how that led to an emergent quality of the AI seeming smart and human-like because it didn't always do the same thing.

 

[Raghar]

It's interesting it caused so much butthurt. Just because players were not able to abuse AI weakness, they were forced to play at the same difficulty as players who don't abuse AI.

 

[Zeriel]

That's not why TFTD was considered "hard"--as mentioned, that AI functionality was already in UFO Defense.

 

[kyrub]

Blimey.
The fonctionality was the same in both games, but (somehow) it malfunctioned in the second iteration. It may be due to the complexity of the maps. "No, the fonctionality is the same". Ah well.

I studied the AI code for UFO. The aliens are alerted once you enter their "zone", they should come out and seek you. It's easy to move step by step in UFO, they come out and you reaction-fire them away, 10 out of 10 thing. This is *not* triggered in TFTD quite often. Aliens hiding in small cabinets on the cruiser ship is something everybody remembers, even if you open the door! But, in fact, the behavior is spreaded across the game terrains. I replayed a TFTD game 3 years ago, an alien was hiding behind a rock, it waited till I slowly crossed the line and it shot a soldier in the back - without moving. I never saw that in UFO.

 

[Average Manatee]

If so then it must have malfunctioned exactly the same way for me in X-Com.

 

[kyrub]

Sectoids destroying core with reaction fire are another case, these are pre-designed to stay at their place (the bridge). In TFTD, even the terrorist units or units in the open don't move. I have never seen a sectoid hidden in a farm or mountaint landscape, without walking out on your agents (the only exception is sectoids on the second floor or on the roof). Have you?