Yet Another Morrowind Thread

[DraQ]

"Lore-friendly" is so 2010 sweetie, now the buzz-word is "Immersive".

Anyway, there's a difference between lore-breaking and downright stupid. I don't mind lore-breaking.

Lore friendliness is kind of important in a game that's essentially made by 1) its setting and 2) exploration.
That is to say the makers of, for example, all sorts of animu new elf race or traditional dorf mods, or ones porting for example Viconia to TES should be forcefully sodomized with Cloud's sword.

OTOH There is certain number of morons who run around slapping "Lore Friendly" on everything they make - "Lore Friendly sitting animations", "Lore Friendly jumbo sized tits", "Lore Friendly Main Menu Replacement" (that one is for real), "lore friendly star wars crossover" (that too), "lore friendly fluorescent sights on bows" (disclosure: I ripped out a few less intrusive - also meaning non-fluorescent - meshes out of that for personal use, mainly Dwemer bows because dwarven bow never looked right for me as a concept and this sort of improvement befits Dwemer, making it looks more right somehow), "lore friendly sights on Falmer bows, despite Falmer being blind and shit" (oh, FFS!) and so on.

 

[Kalon]

Lore-Friendly Star-Wars Crossover. Well, that's a good one. But I guess what the author meant is that is is lore-friendly to both MW lore and SW lore. it just never crossed his mind that SW in itself was not MW-lore-friendly and vice versa.

And while I agree lore-friendliness is important, I find most mods that stick to the lore like a mollusc on its rock kinda boring. I had more fun playing The Underground than Tamriel Rebuilt, for example.

 

[Drax]

Lore-Friendship is magic

 

[Kalon]

Lore-Friendship is magic

You don't say.

 

[DraQ]

Lore-Friendly Star-Wars Crossover. Well, that's a good one. But I guess what the author meant is that is is lore-friendly to both MW lore and SW lore. it just never crossed his mind that SW in itself was not MW-lore-friendly and vice versa.

Well, it looks like an attempt to transplant the motley band of SW protagonists and Millenium Falcon onto TES, with approprietly converted plot and stuff, I can certainly appreciate the effort, even though I will probably never play that.

But calling it Lore Friendly? PLEASE STOP.

And while I agree lore-friendliness is important, I find most mods that stick to the lore like a mollusc on its rock kinda boring. I had more fun playing The Underground than Tamriel Rebuilt, for example.

Well, there are two kinds of lore friendliness:

• Boring "it was never mentioned in the lore therefore it doesn't exist" that stiffles all creativity
  
• Interesting "as long as it doesn't contradict the existing lore beyond what fallible sources allow, doesn't seem to risk doing so in the foreseeable future and doesn't clash badly with overall tone, it's good to go"

In fact there is a lot of room in the lore for building stuff explicitly on thigs just sketched out or merely hinted at. Not a Morrowind mod, but see Skyrim's Interesting Npcs for examples of such lore friendly lore expansions - they are more interesting than some lolrandom shit because they have their place in the setting and make the world seem more interconnected and therefore worth caring about, rather than being just a bunch of random, inconsequential elements thrown together with no overarching thought.

 

[AW8]

 

[Drax]

iNPC is a good example because they even managed to have some weird/random events and characters while staying consistent with the lore and atmosphere of the universe.

 

[DraQ]

iNPC is a good example because they even managed to have some weird/random events and characters while staying consistent with the lore and atmosphere of the universe.

More - they arguably wouldn't be able to pull some of the more interesting stuff if they didn't.

Internal consistency and solid lore is more of a scaffolding than just a constraint.
Sure you might not be allowed to build whatever you want wherever you fucking please, but you can erect bigger, higher and better structures as opposed to shabby shantytowns of unconnected shit.

 

[Old One]

You understand precisely.

As for the game itself, I'm of two minds about the lore. When it comes to "micro-lore," which concerns the factions, races, and history of Morrowind, and their interrelationships, it's really good. Fortunately the micro-lore is the most important for a successful game. When it comes to the macro-lore, it's pretty bad. What I mean is, Tamriel overall is a poor setting. I looked up a couple maps of Tamriel because I couldn't remember it well from when I played Daggerfall, and I was reminded why I couldn't remember it: it's one of the worst "worlds" I've ever seen. Just a big block with the Romans in the middle and the vikings, high elves, wood elves, dark elves, lizardmen, celts, cat-people, and africans around them in a circle. Gah. I made better campaign worlds than that when I was in elementary school.

 

[Drax]

Muh micro-evolution.

 

[Kalon]

What I mean is, Tamriel overall is a poor setting. I looked up a couple maps of Tamriel because I couldn't remember it well from when I played Daggerfall, and I was reminded why I couldn't remember it: it's one of the worst "worlds" I've ever seen. Just a big block with the Romans in the middle and the vikings, high elves, wood elves, dark elves, lizardmen, celts, cat-people, and africans around them in a circle. Gah. I made better campaign worlds than that when I was in elementary school.

It also runs into the issue of the "mono-ecological worlds" which is common in SW lore. Meaning that there is the forest province, the desert province, the swamp province, the snow province, and the (before Morrowind) ash province.

Well, there are two kinds of lore friendliness:

• Boring "it was never mentioned in the lore therefore it doesn't exist" that stiffles all creativity
  
• Interesting "as long as it doesn't contradict the existing lore beyond what fallible sources allow, doesn't seem to risk doing so in the foreseeable future and doesn't clash badly with overall tone, it's good to go"

The second part leaves much room to interpretation. Especially "clash badly with overall tone". There are some modders who think that labelling their creation with either "Dwemer" or "Akaviri" is a good way to sneak their (respectively) steampunkish or weeaboo fantasy in the gameworld.

 

[Popiel]

Just a big block with the Romans in the middle and the vikings, high elves, wood elves, dark elves, lizardmen, celts, cat-people, and africans around them in a circle. Gah. I made better campaign worlds than that when I was in elementary school.

In Cyrodiil (that is Imperial Province) alone you've got at the very least Nibenay (cosmopolitan, Renaissance-heavy culture based around bustling metropolises, thousands of conflicting religions, temples and cults, land of warring dynasties, duchies and republics) and Colovia (rough highlands populated by harsh people who worship set of distant deities, with few cities, constant border conflicts and so on) split. Not to mention subregions of these large ones (Skingrad with its Slavic influences, marshes of the South, Gold Coast etc.), and obviously the City-Isle, the City itself (Constantinople + Venice + imperial Beijing + Baghdad), and Heartlands (things like the Imperial Bridge, miles long and wide, with own culture existing on it, some people spending their whole lives on it even).

I’m not even going to get into why calling Morrowind “lolDarkElves”, Alinor “lolHighElves” or Altbalsoft “lolCelts” is plain stupid, because for some people there is only hate.

 

[Kalon]

You're talking about lore-books Cyrodiil, right ? Because

thousands of conflicting religions, temples and cults

really doesn't connect with my experience of the game and its pathetic not-churches.

 

[Space Insect]

Well that was oblivion which you speak of, and before oblivion Cyrodiil was supposed to be a jungle.

 

[Miner Arobar]

What I mean is, Tamriel overall is a poor setting. I looked up a couple maps of Tamriel because I couldn't remember it well from when I played Daggerfall, and I was reminded why I couldn't remember it: it's one of the worst "worlds" I've ever seen. Just a big block with the Romans in the middle and the vikings, high elves, wood elves, dark elves, lizardmen, celts, cat-people, and africans around them in a circle. Gah. I made better campaign worlds than that when I was in elementary school.

It also runs into the issue of the "mono-ecological worlds" which is common in SW lore. Meaning that there is the forest province, the desert province, the swamp province, the snow province, and the (before Morrowind) ash province.

Completely agree - TES lore occasionally looks like someone took the most basic, standard fantasy world imaginable - with the desert of burning sand located right next to the frozen tundra of ice, etc. - and then furiously worked to make it into something more interesting. Which I guess it exactly what happened. Makes me wonder about what a game setting designed by Michael Kirkbride from the ground up would look like. Possibly too bizarre to be playable.

 

[Popiel]

You're talking about lore-books Cyrodiil, right ? Because

We are talking about this loreTamriel all the time, aren't we...? In gameTamriel biggest city in the known world is populated by something around 50 people. Let's separate lore from gameplay because that's necessary, and particularly interesting when done with TES.

Completely agree - TES lore occasionally looks like someone took the most basic, standard fantasy world imaginable - with the desert of burning sand located right next to the frozen tundra of ice, etc. - and then furiously worked to make it into something more interesting. Which I guess it exactly what happened.

That's what happened. In Redguard-Morrowind-Battlespire period, to be exact. First Pocked Guide to the Empire, books in Morrowind, plot of Battlespire, developers communicating with users around the web. That's when MK started to modify very generic Arena-Daggerfall setting.

 

[Drax]

ITT people take Oblivion as a faithful representation of lore-cyrodiil...

 

[Caim]

Just a big block with the Romans in the middle and the vikings, high elves, wood elves, dark elves, lizardmen, celts, cat-people, and africans around them in a circle. Gah. I made better campaign worlds than that when I was in elementary school.

In Cyrodiil (that is Imperial Province) alone you've got at the very least Nibenay (cosmopolitan, Renaissance-heavy culture based around bustling metropolises, thousands of conflicting religions, temples and cults, land of warring dynasties, duchies and republics) and Colovia (rough highlands populated by harsh people who worship set of distant deities, with few cities, constant border conflicts and so on) split. Not to mention subregions of these large ones (Skingrad with its Slavic influences, marshes of the South, Gold Coast etc.), and obviously the City-Isle, the City itself (Constantinople + Venice + imperial Beijing + Baghdad), and Heartlands (things like the Imperial Bridge, miles long and wide, with own culture existing on it, some people spending their whole lives on it even).

I’m not even going to get into why calling Morrowind “lolDarkElves”, Alinor “lolHighElves” or Altbalsoft “lolCelts” is plain stupid, because for some people there is only hate.

The whole Imperial Bridge thing sounds like it could be its own game. I like it.

 

[DraQ]

You understand precisely.

As for the game itself, I'm of two minds about the lore. When it comes to "micro-lore," which concerns the factions, races, and history of Morrowind, and their interrelationships, it's really good. Fortunately the micro-lore is the most important for a successful game. When it comes to the macro-lore, it's pretty bad. What I mean is, Tamriel overall is a poor setting. I looked up a couple maps of Tamriel because I couldn't remember it well from when I played Daggerfall, and I was reminded why I couldn't remember it: it's one of the worst "worlds" I've ever seen. Just a big block with the Romans in the middle and the vikings, high elves, wood elves, dark elves, lizardmen, celts, cat-people, and africans around them in a circle. Gah. I made better campaign worlds than that when I was in elementary school.

I can't really agree, at least as far as RPG settings go, for two main reasons:

1. TES as setting is pretty well framed and you have a decent idea what is and what isn't in it even if it doesn't cover all the bases which puts it miles and bounds ahead of usual all inclusive kitchensink crap.
2. TES as a setting has pretty much eliminated or marginalized typical XP fodder races. Sure they present in Sapient mortal races are almost completely covered by playable race selection, exceptions are few and either absent from game area altogether or have valid reasons to be segregated without having been wiped out or wiped out everyone else (say Falmer). You don't battle hordes of kobolds, gnolls, xvarts, hobgoblins, tasloi and other shit, you usually either fight wildlife, NPCs of playable races or summoned/created/altered stuff (undead, automatons, daedra, mutated - originally playable race - servants of insane demigod, etc.).

Sure, TES origin as derpy generic campaign setting still shows if you squint hard enough but it has gone a long way since its inception and the fact that stuff that's in it generally has a well define place in the world alone lets it shit on typical RPG fare from vertiginous heights.

 

[Popiel]

The whole Imperial Bridge thing sounds like it could be its own game. I like it.

Cyrodiil is indeed, besides Morrowind, most outlandish of all provinces, followed closely by Alinor (ah, these Nazi Altmer who wage wars over most pure semen donors, to remain as close to divine Ancestors as possible). Oblivion, as a game, was an abomination and a blasphemy. So much was lost.

 

[Drax]

Cyrodiil is also the place where that madman with a hole in the chest used to go supernova every now and then. (iirc)

 

[Old One]

You don't battle hordes of kobolds, gnolls, xvarts, hobgoblins, tasloi and other shit...

Well, except for the wolf-riding goblinoids in Bloodmoon and the goblins in Tribunal. There are lots of both of those.

I'm not even talking about gameplay though. What I mean is, when you view Tamriel from a gods-eye perspective, it seems very artificial and contrived. There's no believable organic history where the Romans end up in the middle with every other generic fantasy race sitting around them in a circle on a single continent.

 

[Popiel]

There's no believable organic history where the Romans end up in the middle with every other generic fantasy race sitting around them in a circle on a single continent.

Your understanding of Tamriel's history is shitty kind sir, and your comparisons are shitty. In loreTamriel Imperials (there is no such thing in lore BTW) are not Romans at all. Learn your stuff.

 

[Space Insect]

The races aren't even that generic either. From a glance it looks like you have generic humans, black humans, high elves, and dark elves. But when you really look at it, the races are not that generic aside from their names and appearances.

 

[Popiel]

Men, mer and Khajiit are one species, and Argonians are plants. This is indeed very generic. And they are all (quasi)gods. Just like trees.