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Chose one Pillow for Pillows.

  • Barbarian

    Votes: 4 6.8%
  • Chanter aka Bard

    Votes: 2 3.4%
  • Cipher aka Psionicist

    Votes: 19 32.2%
  • Druid

    Votes: 5 8.5%
  • Fighter

    Votes: 1 1.7%
  • Monk

    Votes: 4 6.8%
  • Paladin

    Votes: 5 8.5%
  • Priest

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Ranger

    Votes: 3 5.1%
  • Rogue

    Votes: 3 5.1%
  • Wizard

    Votes: 3 5.1%
  • Kingcomrade

    Votes: 10 16.9%

  • Total voters
    59
  • This poll will close: .

Cryomancer

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Just one class choice because it is in singular.

I will be honest: the first time that I played Pillows, I played as a wizard and didn't like that much. Found all spells to be boring and 4e-esque versions of typical D&D spells. When I played as a Cipher, I really liked the game. Because Cipher is something new. According to Tim Cain (video timestamped below), it is based on WildStar esper. Being able to take control over enemies, paralyze them, throw waves of force to knock them down, and disintegrate them was fun.

I liked the class so much that I did a solo PotD Psion run in Pillows 2. And completed the game but honestly couldn't complete the DLCs with this pure RP build. My unique critique is that there are little to no reactivity and the world kinda don't react much to you being able to literally mind enslave people despite the in game lore. In deadfire, you can use your powers to reduce nausea of your crew and to solve a mutiny problem.

 

Poseidon00

Arcane
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Dec 11, 2018
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Ranger. I like animals.

In PoE2 Rangers can use all their per-encounter abilities in a single turn with that teleport-and-shoot skill, whatever it's called. You can easily take out multiple enemies, or 1 very tough enemy, on your first turn this way. Then use an empower to regen half your points and do it again.
 

man_at_arms

Novice
Joined
Oct 8, 2023
Messages
28
Classes feel equally boring due to the lack of weapon or armor restrictions, or restrictions of any kind except for the rare class-specific belt or other trinket. Top it off with martials having loads of encounter abilities and every class having damage, buff, debuff and CC abilities, and you get a delightful gray-brown sludge.

In most games or tabletop systems, classes start out distinct and become muddled over time as expansions/patches/sourcebooks release. Sawyer has managed the impressive feat of delivering this for a system in its first outing!
 

Cryomancer

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Classes feel equally boring due to the lack of weapon or armor restrictions

I don't think so. A Barbarian would be using leap, cleaving enemies, knocking them down with his axe. A Cipher with the same axe would be infusing it with PSI energies, generating focus and using it to take control, paralyze, disintegrate, blind, etc the enemy.

I agree that would be better if we had more class specific weapons and armor, but I don't think that all weapons restrictions makes sense. For eg, Magic Users in AD&D can't use crossbows but can use slings. Somehow AD&D considers crossbows, a very easy weapon to use a "complex weapon" but a sling which is very hard to use a "easier weapon"
 

Junmarko

† Cristo è Re †
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Heh I did enjoy the Cipher, felt like the most original. Had no idea Cain was responsible for it - probably why it was one of the better ones.
 

kapisi

Educated
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232
Classes feel equally boring due to the lack of weapon or armor restrictions, or restrictions of any kind except for the rare class-specific belt or other trinket. - - - Top it off with martials having loads of encounter abilities and every class having damage, buff, debuff and CC abilities, and you get a delightful gray-brown sludge.
See how wonderfully both parts of the paragraph complement each other. Cannot enjoy a system without restrictions, cannot restrict oneself either. I can understand that, some people require an Ironman toggle and things like that.

Still, restrictions only decrease your options, rp included. Tradeoffs are better, have all your options.

A Pillows example would be -
High might character with damage abilities, high int for cc or support.

And the tired old jokes about PhD barbs and muscle wizards are pretty silly. A high int barb could be one who gets anatomy and psychology, where to strike and how to scare best. A high might wizard does his cardio every day and can channel more taxing energy levels. And so on.
 

man_at_arms

Novice
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Still, restrictions only decrease your options, rp included. Tradeoffs are better, have all your options.
Decreased individual options for each character allow for increased distinctiveness and specific niches. This not only makes each class, or more generally "unit type" in a tactical or strategy game, more memorable, but allows for the formation of tactics or strategies that leverage the strengths, weaknesses and limitations of each class.

If you're going to make the classes almost entirely interchangeable, why even make a class system at all? Just go classless like GURPS! But since Sawyer had to pretend to make a D&D-esque Infinity Engine clone because that's what they promised their Kickstarter backers, we end up with a lot of bloated redundancy rather than the potential elegance of a classless system that wouldn't repeat the same ability 10 times with a different name and visual effect for the sake of pretending that classes matter.

And the tired old jokes about PhD barbs and muscle wizards are pretty silly. A high int barb could be one who gets anatomy and psychology, where to strike and how to scare best. A high might wizard does his cardio every day and can channel more taxing energy levels. And so on.
Muscle wizards are ridiculous. I can identify the wizard at a glance in a BG1 screenshot because he's the nerd in the robes. If he's clad in plate armor with a greatsword alongside the fighter who is similarly equipped, once again why are we even bothering with a class system?
 

ferratilis

Arcane
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It was a choice between paladin and priest, but I choose paladin because the orders Josh has created are cool. I like Darcozzi and Goldpact Knights the most.
 

Cryomancer

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Is interesting how the 3 Avoided "classes" that are very lackluster trees had ZERO votes so far. Ranger = 0 votes. Wizards = 0 votes. Fighter = 0 Votes.

Muscle wizards are ridiculous. I can identify the wizard at a glance in a BG1 screenshot because he's the nerd in the robes. If he's clad in plate armor with a greatsword alongside the fighter who is similarly equipped, once again why are we even bothering with a class system?

Well, because magic just needs to fit the setting.

For eg, in a historical RPG like KDC2, no magic makes sense. Magic leading to insanity in a Lovecraftian RPG makes sense as is something alien which our human mind can't comprehend. Magic in Eora being different kinda makes sense. We have armored casters in other settings. The Elder Scrolls is the most iconic example. Academic Wizards tends to use robes. But battlemages are all heavily armored.

That said, for a melee caster, I found Cipher much better than Wizard. Mainly in PoE 2 where you can use subclasses for it, "Soul Annihilation" at max focus can dish hundreds of damages in a single strike ( https://www.reddit.com/r/projecteternity/comments/13ehii4/some_soul_annihilation_maths/ )
 

ferratilis

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Well, ranger is by far the most boring class in the game, and micro intensive because you have to keep the dumb pet alive. And it doesn't help that ranger companions in both games are stronk womyn types with shitty writing and personalities. If you want to babysit your character, just play rogue or cipher, at least you get great damage/control in return.

No votes for monk so far, interesting, it's one of the most devastating classes in the game (except when you run into crush immune enemies, which are luckily not numerous).
 

ds

Cipher
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Cipher is the most unique lore wise. Which is why it probably shouldn't have been a playable class just like godlikes shouldn't have been a playable race. If you have a story that is all about manipulating souls then having a special snowflake class that is all about manipulating souls just devalues all the others.

Also, wizards got done dirty in one of the big patches. Just another example where "balance" gets in the way of fun.
 

Cryomancer

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Cipher is the most unique lore wise. Which is why it probably shouldn't have been a playable class just like godlikes shouldn't have been a playable race

Yes, lets pick the most popular class according to this poll and according to this ( https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/99392-favorite-class/ ) and make unplayable instead of just making the class mechanics more in line with the lore. Because if something is rare in lore, PC's shouldn't have access to cool stuff.

ranger is by far the most boring class in the game, and micro intensive because you have to keep the dumb pet alive.

Ranger, I honestly had in my party when I played in TB. When I played RtWP, I never had a single Ranger in my party. Too micromanaging intensive.
 

Butter

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Hunter was my favorite class in WoW. It was really cool that you had to tame a wild animal to make it your pet, and different animals had different strengths and weaknesses. It had cool utility like Feign Death and different animal Aspects.

PoE Ranger is impressively boring. The pet is mostly worthless and requires constant micro. The main character spends most of the time auto-attacking, occasionally using abilities that are just upgraded attacks. Really terrible design, and I feel bad for anyone who picked that class on his first playthrough because he didn't know better.
 

kapisi

Educated
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Nov 28, 2022
Messages
232
Still, restrictions only decrease your options, rp included. Tradeoffs are better, have all your options.
Decreased individual options for each character allow for increased distinctiveness and specific niches. This not only makes each class, or more generally "unit type" in a tactical or strategy game, more memorable, but allows for the formation of tactics or strategies that leverage the strengths, weaknesses and limitations of each class.

If you're going to make the classes almost entirely interchangeable, why even make a class system at all? Just go classless like GURPS! But since Sawyer had to pretend to make a D&D-esque Infinity Engine clone because that's what they promised their Kickstarter backers, we end up with a lot of bloated redundancy rather than the potential elegance of a classless system that wouldn't repeat the same ability 10 times with a different name and visual effect for the sake of pretending that classes matter.

And the tired old jokes about PhD barbs and muscle wizards are pretty silly. A high int barb could be one who gets anatomy and psychology, where to strike and how to scare best. A high might wizard does his cardio every day and can channel more taxing energy levels. And so on.
Muscle wizards are ridiculous. I can identify the wizard at a glance in a BG1 screenshot because he's the nerd in the robes. If he's clad in plate armor with a greatsword alongside the fighter who is similarly equipped, once again why are we even bothering with a class system?
You can (and should) specialize your party members, especially if you are using AI scripts. Classes are not almost entirely interchangeable, some of them have overlap. I would say they don't overlap much more than D&D (like melee, ranged, caster).

What would be a good average case? Chanter. It can do things that priests and wizards can, but there's a cadence to it. You either lean into stronger sustained effects and can't alpha as much or pick shorter weaker chants for faster access to more powerful invocations. Its non-summon magic is generally short range cones, which requires it to be closer to the Frontline with all that entails. In a class fight a party of priests or wizards will nuke a party of chanters or alpha buff/debuff and roll from there.

Besides, every class has a unique base mechanic that other classes can't mirror.

Cipher - needs weapon damage for magic, can only target entities.
Barbarian - goes online in aoe and high-risk situations.
Chanter - chants and invocations, summoner.
Ranger - has pet and best ranged dps.
Priest - alpha caster with support spells.
Wizard - can be nuker, melee, alpha debuffer. Can only buff self.
Monk - needs wounds, high risk.
Paladin - is a paladin, a mix of fighter and priest.
Rogue - is a rogue.
Fighter - is a fighter.
Druid - has shapeshift and a balanced selection of spells. Arguably the most overlapping class.

A rogue is not any more interchangeable with a priest than in D&D.

And you still can have your nerds in robes. But you can also put him in plate if you want, maybe you have a peculiar character in mind to roleplay. Nobody is forcing you. Even a frontline wizard is better in robes, because he will magic armor himself and get a weapon better than a greatsword faster.

Edit - wizards can't wear plate armor is the same line of autism as bikini armor, dexterity for bows and studded leather. Plate armor is not a 50kg pauldron Warcraft monstrosity, it's perfectly wearable by anyone. And the tradeoffs are there.

Plus, in Pillars you can have a conquistadore wizard/priest in a stylish breastplate, with a rapier and a pistol. How cool is that.

Edit edit - and that's not even touching Deadfire multiclassing, hot daym

P. S. - look at Battle Brothers. No classes.
By day 100 most of the players will have a party of guys named "Olaf TwoHand cleave MAtk90", because the choice is there.

But the prestigious ones will have "No-nose Olaf, the badass Miller", because the choice is there as well
 
Last edited:

NJClaw

OoOoOoOoOoh
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Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
ranger companions in both games are stronk womyn types with shitty writing and personalities
I'm too drunk to articulate my thoughts, but Maia Rua is absolutely fine (one of my favorite companions in Deadfire) and there's nothing wrong with Sagani. Sure, she is a huntress while her husband looks after their children, but she's never obnoxious and she doesn't come off as a "strong woman" type. I mean, one third of her entire personality is that she misses her husband and her children.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Ranger. I like animals.

In PoE2 Rangers can use all their per-encounter abilities in a single turn with that teleport-and-shoot skill, whatever it's called. You can easily take out multiple enemies, or 1 very tough enemy, on your first turn this way. Then use an empower to regen half your points and do it again.
Great positioner.

Several of the unique ranged weapons have procs that require careful positioning to combo with this skill.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
ranger companions in both games are stronk womyn types with shitty writing and personalities
I'm too drunk to articulate my thoughts, but Maia Rua is absolutely fine (one of my favorite companions in Deadfire) and there's nothing wrong with Sagani. Sure, she is a huntress while her husband looks after their children, but she's never obnoxious and she doesn't come off as a "strong woman" type. I mean, one third of her entire personality is that she misses her husband and her children.
Leaving her family in the first place is sus.

The characters are appealing and gameplay great but yeah the writing is less than ideal (as usual really).
 

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