Your opinion on Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines

[Wyrmlord]

The crouch = stealth style is not the highest form of stealth.

Even in No One Lives Forever 2, which was NOT a stealth game, you had things like throwing objects to distract enemies in order to rush past them while you could.

 

[procrastinator]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjU6ZBJcmIc#t=3m18s

 

[Multidirectional]

Even in No One Lives Forever 2, which was NOT a stealth game, you had things like throwing objects to distract enemies in order to rush past them while you could.

Uh..Bloodlines has this. Maybe you should've played the tutorial. And please do name the RPG that has "highest form of stealth". I'd say stealth sucks in all of them, if you're gonna focus on how it's implemented regarding player skill. I'm not bothered with it being mostly character skill dependent myself.
And.. was "Even in No One Lives Forever 2, which was NOT a stealth game" supposed to mean "as opposed to Bloodlines" or something?

 

[Wyrmlord]

Thanks for the correction. My memory was bad, and I shouldn't have said that.

 

[Multidirectional]

Well, maybe if I hadn't played through this game 10+ times I might have forgotten it too. I probably shouldn't have been an asshole about this then.

 

[pocahaunted]

Do you two sissies wanna hug?

Anyway, I could never get past VtM:B's terrible gameplay, the combat is especially painful. I'll have to force myself to play some more in the future.

 

[Black Cat]

How so? I thought it fits pretty well. Now I haven't read many Masquerade sourcebooks but it doesn't seem to me like VTMB does worse than takes a few unnecessary liberties.

It superficially does, but has literally tons of mistakes that are only obvious if you really know your lore, from basic vampire society misses to really dumb liberties taken to make the game epic and, like, majestic. I do understand most players will go, for example, into the sewers and not see the stupid lore faux pas that entire section is, but given those parts weren't needed it just looks lazy in the end.

It is also pretty interesting to mention that if you play the game as expected, with social skills and everything, the writing flows nicely, but if you don't, the writing breaks down and the immersion dies a horrible, bloody dead. Like, in the begining Lacroix wants you dead, and all he needs is an excuse. You go and suck dry an entire ship of policemen, or an entire museum of hired police, even when he ordered you not to. Both places are in the very center of a mediatic storm. What's stoping him from executing you right there for literally raping the Masquerade?

Those are pretty glaring oversights when The Masquerade, for example, is a concept so important to the setting as for the setting to be named after it.

Dunno. I sort of like Bach, he's such a stupid asshole, just fitting to my view of hunters.

I was refering to powers and abilities mostly. Serious hunter groups, as Bach's is made to be, usually include religious hedge wizards, priests with faith abilities, and other weird mortal, uhm, units, and if the GM feels creative they can even wield some actual Hunters (as in, The Reckoning) and supernatural allies. So the entire hunter stuff felt kind of the same as every other run against weak enemies using heavy firepower at range instead of presenting the kind of dificulties and situations an actual fight with hardcore hunters would present on the setting, and showing why hardcore hunters are actually very dangerous foes to be taken with care, improvisation, and wit instead of kicking down the door and go right in, guns blazing and fangs sucking.

Half-assed is kind of a theme on the second half of the game, though, so maybe it's not completely their fault.

Yeah. Why not twist even the social and mental disciplines in to combat ones, it's sure not like we have enough of those anyway.

Totally.

And what they did to Presence is outright criminal. :/

You got willpower 10 with magic experience. Dunno, to me it always seemed like Dominate shouldn't work if your generation actually is as low as it's hinted at.

But then why did it work at first?

It just seem too convenient one way or the other, so it really stands out. Write it down under things that should not have been there or should have been actually explained.

Two of them. Jesus what bullshit.

At least Ming Xiao is fought in an underground secret complex. But the Nagloper? While the orbital bombardment is mostly an exageration part of me was actually expecting a strike team of Hit Marks parachuting in and purging vampires and witnesses alike in a barrage of plasma fire. A squad of black helicopters at the very least.

What do you mean awful stealth? You could try sneak, you could try obfuscate.

Crouch to activate invisibility.

I don't know, maybe I am spoiled by actual stealth games but I can't play a game with such an abstract stealth mechanic without feeling I'm cheating my way through the game. I mean, I don't mind it in Arcanum or the like because the game is actually abstract in everything but in Bloodline it doesn't really work.

I don't really mind Obfuscate, though. That's what Obfuscate does, and it's actually a pretty faithful adaptation outside of the kind of understandable lack of Mask of a Thousand Faces. Maybe you we are given way too many blood points for it to actually act as an emergency button instead of your basic stealth skill, but still...

Stealth was also perfectly fine. No worse than any other stealth system in a genre-bender.

Let's be honest here: The stealth is awful. Even Alpha Protocol does it better, and Human Revolution is to Bloodlines what Thief is to Human Revolution.

 

[mondblut]

Shit FPS on rails with some funny hyperlink minigames.

 

[Wolfus]

VTMB is great game.

 

[Roderick]

One of the most memorable games i've ever played and one of the games i've most enjoyed.Even with all it's flaws.
Also one of the best written and most atmospheric games ever. I also like the soundtrack

Yeah the combat, stealth and linearity lower it's quality but i still enjoy the combat (it's simple but not bad) stealth is workable in an abstract rpg way. And well the linearity is beacuse they didn't have enough time and resources to flesh it out as they wanted

 

[anus_pounder]

Bloodlines made me a huge Lacuna Coil fan, until my sister found the OST on my computer and started liking them too

Ok, I'll bite. Could you name a few good songs by them I could listen to ?

 

[Andyman Messiah]

VTMB is great game.

I like Vampire - the Masquerade: Bloodlines this much.

 

[Metro]

The strength and weaknesses have been covered although where I probably disagree with most is that the weaknesses are too numerous/off putting to suffer through multiple playthroughs.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Shit FPS on rails with some funny hyperlink minigames.

VTMB is great game.

Fukken hivemind!!!

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Bloodlines is a good game. But...

It also bears mention that the stealth aspect is definately NOT good, or even not-shit. The AI is dumber than a stack of bricks, detection is handled extremely haphazardly (including LoS) and it's simply not worth the effort. Not to mention Obfuscate is the king of the hill when it comes to "cheats" for stealth (for all the shit the Codex gives for AP and HR, often completely untrue as well, Bloodlines never gets shit for having an infite stealth mode you can have from game start), and it's actually no sense in doing stealth without it due to how shit it is.

Compare to stealth in Alpha Protocol or Human Revolution, or even just old Deus Ex, the difference in quality is astounding.

 

[Roguey]

The strength and weaknesses have been covered although where I probably disagree with most is that the weaknesses are too numerous/off putting to suffer through multiple playthroughs.

Using the word "suffer" says it all. I have better things to do than suffer through something I've already been through once.

 

[pipka]

By the way Wesp5 is still updating his patch.

 

[Metro]

The strength and weaknesses have been covered although where I probably disagree with most is that the weaknesses are too numerous/off putting to suffer through multiple playthroughs.

Using the word "suffer" says it all. I have better things to do than suffer through something I've already been through once.

It's a shame, too, because they really put a lot of effort into different play styles/solutions but the combat is just so bad and so many parts of the game are just so terrible due to it being rushed by the publisher it's just hard to enjoy. Someone needs to make a patch where you can skip the sewers, warrens, and that hotel near the end of the game.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

By the way Wesp5 is still updating his patch.

What's he updating now? And what's Tessera's butthurt about it?

 

[Volourn]

Bloodlines is a good game that could ahve been great if it wasn't for the uber fail of combat and end game. The writing and atmosphere is top notch, and while some games are its equal in that regard none are its superior.

 

[Black Cat]

Even Alpha Protocol does it better

You could put this sentence in any kind of context whatsoever, and it would still be bullshit.

Sorry, but I don't discuss stealth gameplay with people ignorant of stealth mechanics.

 

[SCO]

Stealth is unrealistic, but ok (i like it even when halfassed, like desu ex).

You can never move while in the LOS of the enemies and not in "shadow" no matter the distance.

 

[CappenVarra]

It kinda sucked that all supernatural enemies could automatically see through it (instead of depending on Auspex ranks)

They don't. I think they need to have auspex activated.

The blood hunt guys appear to have it on 24-7 i think. But the boozos at the Ventrue tower i'm quite sure i backstabed one by one.

Well, I'm not sure that 100% of supernatural enemies see through Obfuscate, but it sure felt quite like it recently (only played Malkav with latest version of Wesp's basic patch). I mean, even fleshcrafted beasts seemed to have 5 ranks of Auspex (needed to automatically see through 4 ranks of Obfuscate in PnP, and roll Perception vs. Stealth to see through 5 ranks of Obfuscate) - and use it constantly. Then again, Obfuscate is enough of a God Mode already, so I'm not sure I'm actually complaining - just pointing out

A downside of this is addiction withdrawal - whenever I start a character without Obfuscate, I remember the Glory of the Green Veil and just can't bother to play without it...

You can cheat disciplines in to any clan. However, the dialogs use of disciplines check for clan. Not a problem for obsfuscate and celerity though. And remember, the game has no grinding (except the "happens-before" game with the books, so it's hard to fill more than one additional discipline; i don't say "impossible", but you'll be negleting important things for a ability limited by blood)

Thanks, I didn't consider the console yet. Other disciplines are all well and fine, but for me it's all about backstabbing so I didn't actually need them

 

[laclongquan]

By the way Wesp5 is still updating his patch.

What's he updating now?

Fix the bugs he created in his 'tweaks' to 'Innovate' the game?

Well, I'm not sure that 100% of supernatural enemies see through Obfuscate, but it sure felt quite like it recently (only played Malkav with latest version of Wesp's basic patch). I mean, even fleshcrafted beasts seemed to have 5 ranks of Auspex (needed to automatically see through 4 ranks of Obfuscate in PnP, and roll Perception vs. Stealth to see through 5 ranks of Obfuscate) - and use it constantly. Then again, Obfuscate is enough of a God Mode already, so I'm not sure I'm actually complaining - just pointing out

Since you played a Wesp5 game, it's possible he fucked around with that. I am not saying for certain, but he fucked around too much it's an educated guess in this case.

 

[SCO]

cool story bro