New Vegas gameplay mechanics aren't better than FO3

[Relay]

Of course, to put the last nail to the coffin New Vegas..

Lol, you should start like that, I wouldn't even bother reading. New Vegas with all it's faults is one of the best crpgs since Fallout 1

Keep sucking Avellone's cock, I hear he's sex starved and has needs that no one can completely fulfill which is why NV companions are the way they are. Best since Fallout 1 ? It's not even on the level of shitout 2.

New Vegas is only better for storyfags who thought that PST was a great game. It's clearly not a successor to the original Fallout.

 

[Silellak]

New Vegas is only better for storyfags who thought that PST was a great game.

Oh, cool. No wonder I like New Vegas.

 

[Relay]

Anyway I can't take seriously anyone who would enjoy a RPG that lets you breeze through combat with not a single point in any of the skills. Try it, use a powerfist (since unarmed is probably the most underdeveloped skill for most people) you'll see how efficient you are, better yet you're probably doing more damage with "unarmed weapons" (wtf) even with low skills than with small guns.
Fallout 1 wouldn't even have let you touch the enemy, much less damage it.

New Fegas is like FO3 in the ways that matters the most.

 

[Mastermind]

yeah keep in mind that fallout 3 does have a GIGANTIC underworld composed of EXACTLY the same lookin tunnels, caves and bunkers which are a lot of fun to explore

It's not just the underworld that's bigger. Plus, I figured all the cutting and pasting in Fallout 3 would appeal to the Daggerfall fans here.

 

[DalekFlay]

Make the game world feel bigger (it's actually much smaller than fallout 3's).

No, it's really not. Even taking away the sections blocked off it's still bigger. The size of the map in the pipboy means nothing, it's a different scale.

I played the living fuck out of both NV and Fallout 3. NV is way smaller. Both in map size and in amount of exploration content. The only thing NV does bigger than Fallout 3 is the friendly NPC population. NV has a lot of well populated settlements and New Vegas proper pimp slaps the shit out of any Fallout 3 settlement. So NV will feel bigger for speechfags in that regard. But in terms of exploration 3 was much bigger.

I know when I start FO3 I usually run straight South and then straight East to get to Rivet City and it takes like 5 minutes. I can't imagine doing the same thing in New Vegas, it feels much larger. More specifically the arrow seems like it takes much longer to get from A to B than it did in FO3.

Either of us could be right or wrong I guess. Ausir should pop in with exact measurements.

 

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

Make the game world feel bigger (it's actually much smaller than fallout 3's).

No, it's really not. Even taking away the sections blocked off it's still bigger. The size of the map in the pipboy means nothing, it's a different scale.

I played the living fuck out of both NV and Fallout 3. NV is way smaller. Both in map size and in amount of exploration content. The only thing NV does bigger than Fallout 3 is the friendly NPC population. NV has a lot of well populated settlements and New Vegas proper pimp slaps the shit out of any Fallout 3 settlement. So NV will feel bigger for speechfags in that regard. But in terms of exploration 3 was much bigger.

I know when I start FO3 I usually run straight South and then straight East to get to Rivet City and it takes like 5 minutes. I can't imagine doing the same thing in New Vegas, it feels much larger. More specifically the arrow seems like it takes much longer to get from A to B than it did in FO3.

Either of us could be right or wrong I guess. Ausir should pop in with exact measurements.

Doesn't take more than a few minutes to get to Tenpenny Tower, as long as you know where you're going and don't get distracted.

 

[Relay]

Make the game world feel bigger (it's actually much smaller than fallout 3's).

No, it's really not. Even taking away the sections blocked off it's still bigger. The size of the map in the pipboy means nothing, it's a different scale.

I played the living fuck out of both NV and Fallout 3. NV is way smaller. Both in map size and in amount of exploration content. The only thing NV does bigger than Fallout 3 is the friendly NPC population. NV has a lot of well populated settlements and New Vegas proper pimp slaps the shit out of any Fallout 3 settlement. So NV will feel bigger for speechfags in that regard. But in terms of exploration 3 was much bigger.

I know when I start FO3 I usually run straight South and then straight East to get to Rivet City and it takes like 5 minutes. I can't imagine doing the same thing in New Vegas, it feels much larger. More specifically the arrow seems like it takes much longer to get from A to B than it did in FO3.

Either of us could be right or wrong I guess. Ausir should pop in with exact measurements.

NV has many more invisible walls and high places to make you walk more than you usually do. Of course you can go to rivet city in 5 minutes, you can walk a straight line to it which isn't true of NV you can't go to jacobstown for example without a huge fucking trek. NV is the gold standard of walking simulators.

 

[Silellak]

Anyway I can't take seriously anyone who would enjoy a RPG that lets you breeze through combat with not a single point in any of the skills. Try it, use a powerfist (since unarmed is probably the most underdeveloped skill for most people) you'll see how efficient you are, better yet you're probably doing more damage with "unarmed weapons" (wtf) even with low skills than with small guns.
Fallout 1 wouldn't even have let you touch the enemy, much less damage it.

New Fegas is like FO3 in the ways that matters the most.

You heard it, folks. The combat system is what matters most in an RPG.

 

[Havoc]

Then... Arcanum sucks!

 

[Mastermind]

You heard it, folks. The combat system is what matters most in an RPG.

If the RPG has assloads of combat then actually yeah, it does. It's a game first and foremost and if playing it isn't fun, it doesn't matter how many faggots jack off over the well implemented skill system. See Arcanum for a perfectly good example of a solid RPG system ruined by shitty combat.

 

[Relay]

Anyway I can't take seriously anyone who would enjoy a RPG that lets you breeze through combat with not a single point in any of the skills. Try it, use a powerfist (since unarmed is probably the most underdeveloped skill for most people) you'll see how efficient you are, better yet you're probably doing more damage with "unarmed weapons" (wtf) even with low skills than with small guns.
Fallout 1 wouldn't even have let you touch the enemy, much less damage it.

New Fegas is like FO3 in the ways that matters the most.

You heard it, folks. The combat system is what matters most in an RPG.

I take it you think Wizardries and the like aren't RPGs ? Dude, there were RPG way before you were born, way before storyfags hijacked the genre. The original pen&paper was all about hack'slashing dungeons too.

Go suck some emo cock, slash your wrist, cry about how miserable life is and so on like a true Torment (TORMENT!) fan and stop redefining what it means to be a RPG. A RPG without good mechanics is as good as dead.

By storyfags standards if they took their rose colored glasses off they'd probably say that fallout 1 sucks but since they want to fit in with the RPG crowd they suck it up and pretend to like Fallout even though it is pretty clear that what they like in New Vegas is what all Avefag like in Obsidian.
Fallout 1 wasn't about storyfaggotry, there wasn't much writing going on in that game hell some (most?) of the famous "Talking Heads" didn't have much to say (hello Tandi).

There is more spoken lines in the talk you have with Caesar in New Vegas than there is in all of the NPC of a city in Fallout 1. Much of it is bullshit pseudo philosophic barbaric crap to justify slavery and terror tactics though.

 

[bonescraper]

Apart from the odd deathclaw and particularly inane cazador (wtf ? it feels humiliating to get raped by a gang of flies. Nigga' please! deathclaws look impressive, cazadors are just 'tarded.)

Your idea of increased difficulty - place Deathclaws everywhere lolololo. I can actually imagine how a swarm of overgrown, agile wasps could fuck you up in seconds. They hunt fucking tarantulas in real life. But they're pretty easy to kill if you shoot their wings.

you might say that equipment matters far, far more than your character in New Vegas exactly as it was in Fallout 3.

'Cause you could kill Enclave troopers with your 10mm pistol in FO2 wearing a one sleeved leather jacket. Who needs gauss and power armor, right?

The thing is, you don't need to be skilled in explosive to fuck people up with dynamites and grenades.

Honestly, i don't know. I haven't raised that skill above 12. I could throw 5 sticks of dynamite at powder gangers and they would still charge at me*. That's dumb allright.

You don't need much sneak to be able to snipe people from afar.

No fucking shit Sherlock? You obviously need to be a fucking ninja to be able to shoot people from 500 meters? Sneak actually counts when... you know... you're sneaking!

You don't need much in guns either, sure having more gives you a bit more damage but it's not game-changing.

But it works just like in Deus Ex. Higher guns skill = lower spread and steadier scopes.

In Fallout 1 and 2, not having skills points in weapons meant that you COULDN'T use them at all since you would be missing ALL THE FUCKING TIME even if your enemy was right in front of you.

How the fuck do you imagine that happening in a goddamn real-time first person perspective? Seriously? It would make Alpha Protocol look like Max Payne. Fuck, it would propably be the worst, most frustrating game ever.

Here you only miss in VATS but VATS is fucking useless since you can precisely shoot from a bigger range than VATS allows using scopes.

V.A.T.S. sucks, news at 11.

Lacking strength didn't gimp the big guns as much as I thought it would when people said that "strength mattered". It may either lower the damage or precision but surely not enough to prevent me from using them when I get my hands on the ammunition with a whopping 5 STR.

Can't say anything about that. I haven't used any of the bigger guns except the anti-materiel rifle. But i had the perk which lowers the STR requirements by 2.

I haven't invested ANY points in "unarmed" but it doesn't prevent my character from two-hit-killing people with the powerfist. In the original fallout you wouldn't even be able to touch someone if you didn't invest points.

Yeah. Now go fight a Deathclaw/Nightstalker/Fire Gecko/Giant Radscoprion/Cazador/Nightkin/Brotherhood Paladin... Waah, i don't have to raise my skills

All in all, the only thing having a high skill in something does is about making you the avatar of God on earth because without them you can still pwn everything. For example, sure you can kill stuff with a powerfist without investment, but if you do invest, you can get the requirement for the piercing strike perk and have the Hands of God :

Piercing Strike Unarmed 70 12 Melee and unarmed attacks bypass 15 points of the enemy's DT

Waah, i have to raise my skills

Add to that the magazines that boosts +10 your skills (+20 with the must-have perk) and you don't need more than 80 in speech (70 if you don't care for the single 100 speech check of the game), 50 in science and 50 in lockpick anyway.

Drugs good, magazines baaad. Guess what, magazines replaced lockpicks, toolkits, first aid kits etc. Hell, even the motion sensor gave you + 20% to outdoorsman. Short memory?

Barter is redundant, at least two thirds of the dialogues with barter checks offer equivalent speech checks. (huge WTF)

Made up bullshit.

This game is a fucking disappointment and not an incline from FO3.

It's even worse. And all your points are valid.



* I played on hard, maybe that makes some difference, i don't know.

 

[Relay]

You're full of bullshit and taking shit out of context all in VD's fashion, not worth replying to I'll just take one point as an example of the kind of bullshit that goes to show you have no reading comprehension and are an illiterate monkey :

'Cause you could kill Enclave troopers with your 10mm pistol in FO2 wearing a one sleeved leather jacket. Who needs gauss and power armor, right?

This isn't what I meant. What I meant was that you don't need to be skilled to make efficient use of powerful weapons, not that higher skill would make a crap weapon better. So, equipment matters, build didn't much. In Fallout 1, if you didn't invest points in weapon skills, you couldn't even HIT your enemy. In New Vegas you can make a gimp and still manage to score lots of hits. Go, try Fallout 1, make a gimp and try to score a hit with a melee weapon see how it goes.
Now go drown into a sea of Christ's diarrhea, I don't have the patience dealing with people who needs lots of hand holding and explaining to.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Anyway I can't take seriously anyone who would enjoy a RPG that lets you breeze through combat with not a single point in any of the skills. Try it, use a powerfist (since unarmed is probably the most underdeveloped skill for most people) you'll see how efficient you are, better yet you're probably doing more damage with "unarmed weapons" (wtf) even with low skills than with small guns.
Fallout 1 wouldn't even have let you touch the enemy, much less damage it.

New Fegas is like FO3 in the ways that matters the most.

You heard it, folks. The combat system is what matters most in an RPG.

I take it you think Wizardries and the like aren't RPGs ? Dude, there were RPG way before you were born, way before storyfags hijacked the genre. The original pen&paper was all about hack'slashing dungeons too.

Go suck some emo cock, slash your wrist, cry about how miserable life is and so on like a true Torment (TORMENT!) fan and stop redefining what it means to be a RPG. A RPG without good mechanics is as good as dead.

By storyfags standards if they took their rose colored glasses off they'd probably say that fallout 1 sucks but since they want to fit in with the RPG crowd they suck it up and pretend to like Fallout even though it is pretty clear that what they like in New Vegas is what all Avefag like in Obsidian.
Fallout 1 wasn't about storyfaggotry, there wasn't much writing going on in that game hell some (most?) of the famous "Talking Heads" didn't have much to say (hello Tandi).

There is more spoken lines in the talk you have with Caesar in New Vegas than there is in all of the NPC of a city in Fallout 1. Much of it is bullshit pseudo philosophic barbaric crap to justify slavery and terror tactics though.

Anyway I can't take seriously anyone who would enjoy a RPG that lets you breeze through combat with not a single point in any of the skills. Try it, use a powerfist (since unarmed is probably the most underdeveloped skill for most people) you'll see how efficient you are, better yet you're probably doing more damage with "unarmed weapons" (wtf) even with low skills than with small guns.
Fallout 1 wouldn't even have let you touch the enemy, much less damage it.

New Fegas is like FO3 in the ways that matters the most.

You heard it, folks. The combat system is what matters most in an RPG.

Go and read a decent or good novel and you'll understand why (if you're a storyfag). Or play a decent or good visual novel (if you're a C&C fag).

 

[Volrath]

Sup drog.

 

[Sceptic]

Go and read a decent or good novel and you'll understand why (if you're a storyfag). Or play a decent or good visual novel (if you're a C&C fag).

Oh FFS, not that shit again.

 

[DalekFlay]

Go and read a decent or good novel and you'll understand why (if you're a storyfag). Or play a decent or good visual novel (if you're a C&C fag).

Novels don't have adaptive storylines that change based on your character and decisions last I checked. They also don't have gameplay, which no one said wasn't important.

I hate the lazy "go read a book" argument. It's the combination of gameplay, story, visuals, audio and choice that makes games so often. Each part is important.

 

[Silellak]

Anyway I can't take seriously anyone who would enjoy a RPG that lets you breeze through combat with not a single point in any of the skills. Try it, use a powerfist (since unarmed is probably the most underdeveloped skill for most people) you'll see how efficient you are, better yet you're probably doing more damage with "unarmed weapons" (wtf) even with low skills than with small guns.
Fallout 1 wouldn't even have let you touch the enemy, much less damage it.

New Fegas is like FO3 in the ways that matters the most.

You heard it, folks. The combat system is what matters most in an RPG.

I take it you think Wizardries and the like aren't RPGs ? Dude, there were RPG way before you were born, way before storyfags hijacked the genre. The original pen&paper was all about hack'slashing dungeons too.

No, I just accept that there are different kinds of RPGs, that some people prefer different things out of their RPGs, and that preferring one type of RPG over another isn't wrong.

You aren't wrong to dislike New Vegas because of its sub-par RPG mechanics - but people who like New Vegas aren't wrong to enjoy it because of "storyfag" and C&C-centric reasons.

Personally, I don't think most people fap to Fallout because of its dialog or story - but they also don't fap to it because of its "tactical" combat - FO's combat system is really quite simple, and there's not all that much strategy to it. I mean I guess it's possible to get your turn-based, stat-based combat fix out of FO1, but in general I'd think you'd be better off playing something like JA2. Where FO1 really shines for many people is the multitude of options and C&C in a non-linear, interesting setting. The combat is secondary for those people - just as it is in New Vegas.

 

[Jaesun]

Another newfag shit troller. Sup drog.

 

[roll-a-die]

Anyway I can't take seriously anyone who would enjoy a RPG that lets you breeze through combat with not a single point in any of the skills. Try it, use a powerfist (since unarmed is probably the most underdeveloped skill for most people) you'll see how efficient you are, better yet you're probably doing more damage with "unarmed weapons" (wtf) even with low skills than with small guns.
Fallout 1 wouldn't even have let you touch the enemy, much less damage it.

New Fegas is like FO3 in the ways that matters the most.

You heard it, folks. The combat system is what matters most in an RPG.

I take it you think Wizardries and the like aren't RPGs ? Dude, there were RPG way before you were born, way before storyfags hijacked the genre. The original pen&paper was all about hack'slashing dungeons too.

You know people get this impression, but it couldn't be more wrong. There are 3-4 essential components to a PnP RPG, Combat, Story, and Character building possibly with the addition of genuine human interaction, but that's not relevant to the matter at hand. People in the 80s and 90s looked at it, and basically said, "OH GOD WHAT DO WE DO, WE DON'T HAVE THE SPACE TO DO ALL OF THOSE!" and just picked the 2 that were space efficient.

The reason the supplements and books didn't feature much story, character interaction, was because that was the DM and players job. They couldn't predict what the character's were going to be like, thus they didn't even try.

Go suck some emo cock, slash your wrist, cry about how miserable life is and so on like a true Torment (TORMENT!) fan and stop redefining what it means to be a RPG. A RPG without good mechanics is as good as dead

Oh shut the fuck up you cock garbling moron. You don't have to be emo to enjoy a good story. Even so if you wanted to specify, I am punk, not emo. Emo is a modern evolution of the subcultures of the 80s and 90s. It's retarded self defeating sub-culture filled with massive idiocy, as all were. And no, I am not above seeing the perceived hypocrisy within that sentence, I accept it and acknowledge it, thus it is no longer a hypocrisy.

As far as Torment's story, considering some of the WoD games I've played in or seen, it ranks about a 4 on the rollings 10 point scale of emo.

By storyfags standards if they took their rose colored glasses off they'd probably say that fallout 1 sucks but since they want to fit in with the RPG crowd they suck it up and pretend to like Fallout even though it is pretty clear that what they like in New Vegas is what all Avefag like in Obsidian.
Fallout 1 wasn't about storyfaggotry, there wasn't much writing going on in that game hell some (most?) of the famous "Talking Heads" didn't have much to say (hello Tandi).

It's a decent game for it's setting, gameplay structure, and quest design, the story is decent, but relies allot on Deus Ex Machina, in terms of which fallout game a prefer, I flit between 2 and 1 constantly. Personally I think NV is an excellent expansion to the mechanics brought forth in 2, while suffering from it's flaws. Namely that it seems like plight within the various townships doesn't effect much else.

There is more spoken lines in the talk you have with Caesar in New Vegas than there is in all of the NPC of a city in Fallout 1. Much of it is bullshit pseudo philosophic barbaric crap to justify slavery and terror tactics though.

True, and on the "pseudo" philosophy, that's kinda the whole fucking point. It's supposed to be barbaric, but still be possible to identify with. In that manner they succeeded, but it still rides just along the edge of what is realistic. There's worse in the real world, research just about any biker gang, or really any gang. I've never seen one with justifiable philosophies. It's one of those things about large groups of violent people.

 

[bonescraper]

What I meant was that you don't need to be skilled to make efficient use of powerful weapons, not that higher skill would make a crap weapon better. So, equipment matters, build didn't much. In Fallout 1, if you didn't invest points in weapon skills, you couldn't even HIT your enemy

Yeah, that's why System Shock, Deus Ex and Bloodlines failed. These games were fucking awful, 'cause you coudn't miss from point-blank range!!!!!111!1!! Equipement matters, oh noes! I bet you loved Alpha Protocol then.

It's a REAL-TIME, FIRST PERSON PERSPECTIVE game. It can't work exactly like the originals. Get that through your thick skull.

 

[muffildy]

walk

I hate these big open world type games too because of all of the nothing inbetween, But luckily unlike the original poster i know how to use the GECK and so all i did was make the run speed 2x as fast.

As for sneaking, its almost useless in its original format, luckily again theres a kind modder who posted a mod to make the skill actually matter - before it is about 25% of a successful sneak attempt but this guy fixed it.
Mod is called 'better sneak' theres also a mod called 'predator sneak' if you want to cheat a little bit and give yourself something similar to hide in plain sight ability from dnd.

 

[bonescraper]

Oh, btw. You pretty much described yourself here:

people who needs lots of hand holding and explaining to.

 

[Eyeball]

I consider NV a major step up from FO3 as far as game mechanics are concerned on most points. In fact, I ESPECIALLY love the Cazadores - hornets are tough motherfuckers, makes sense. Watch this video of a handful of hornets assraping an entire hive of bees: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDSf3Kshq1M . After splatting some corpse flies, I headed north from Goodsprings trying to get to Vegas. Here, I ran into a bunch of pissant bugs - "goody" thinks I, "more free XP." Roughly 10 seconds later, the Cazadores made me their total bitch. From that point onwards, I only engaged large groups of Cazadores with a scoped rifle and Boone by my side.

The same thing goes for the Nightstalkers - "Oh hey, this looks like an interesting little cave for my level 5 character to explore, I wonder what's insiOHSHITSNAKEDOGSAAAAARGHTHEPAIIN!"

The inclusion of places just off the starting location that will completely murder your lowbie character is one of the things that makes NV a better game than FO3.

I also don't find the gameworld "empty" or the treks uninteresting. Every time I started walking towards my main quest goal on the map, I always got distracted by a town or a tower or interesting cave I could see in the distance. The only thing I could agree with is that NV could do with more random encounters of the "wandering trader" type while out on the roads as there seems to be very few of them, and the ones there are are real dull.

I DO agree that the magazines are lame. My guess is that they're only included to appease the console dipshits who whine and bitch that they can't hack every terminal, bypass every speech check or pick every lock they encounter. Would have been a better game without them. I also wish melee wasn't autohit in VATS, but if it wasn't, it would make VATS worthless for melee users as the game's sadly still based on the you-can't-miss Oblivion model.

Finally, why is the fact that NV has far better writing than FO3 a non-issue for you? Arcanum is one of the best RPGs in history due to great writing and setting, and its actual gameplay mechanics were shite. You seem to just look for things to moan about at this point.

PS: Morrowind was a fucking amazing game, insane to follow that up with shit like Oblivion, and PST is, indeed, the best video game ever created.

 

[Relay]

Anyway I can't take seriously anyone who would enjoy a RPG that lets you breeze through combat with not a single point in any of the skills. Try it, use a powerfist (since unarmed is probably the most underdeveloped skill for most people) you'll see how efficient you are, better yet you're probably doing more damage with "unarmed weapons" (wtf) even with low skills than with small guns.
Fallout 1 wouldn't even have let you touch the enemy, much less damage it.

New Fegas is like FO3 in the ways that matters the most.

You heard it, folks. The combat system is what matters most in an RPG.

I take it you think Wizardries and the like aren't RPGs ? Dude, there were RPG way before you were born, way before storyfags hijacked the genre. The original pen&paper was all about hack'slashing dungeons too.

No, I just accept that there are different kinds of RPGs, that some people prefer different things out of their RPGs, and that preferring one type of RPG over another isn't wrong.

You aren't wrong to dislike New Vegas because of its sub-par RPG mechanics - but people who like New Vegas aren't wrong to enjoy it because of "storyfag" and C&C-centric reasons.

Personally, I don't think most people fap to Fallout because of its dialog or story - but they also don't fap to it because of its "tactical" combat - FO's combat system is really quite simple, and there's not all that much strategy to it. I mean I guess it's possible to get your turn-based, stat-based combat fix out of FO1, but in general I'd think you'd be better off playing something like JA2. Where FO1 really shines for many people is the multitude of options and C&C in a non-linear, interesting setting. The combat is secondary for those people - just as it is in New Vegas.

I agree that FO1 isn't *only* about the combat itself but you sure as hell can't take it away and call it "Fallout".
About JA2, it is obvious that there is a huge overlap between fans of JA2 and fans of Fallout. I love JA2 and it has superior combat, and I think no one would have complained if a new Fallout had taken notice of JA2. I personnally have never seen anyone who loves Fallout who didn't like JA2.

You know people get this impression, but it couldn't be more wrong. There are 3-4 essential components to a PnP RPG, Combat, Story, and Character building possibly with the addition of genuine human interaction, but that's not relevant to the matter at hand. People in the 80s and 90s looked at it, and basically said, "OH GOD WHAT DO WE DO, WE DON'T HAVE THE SPACE TO DO ALL OF THOSE!" and just picked the 2 that were space efficient.

The reason the supplements and books didn't feature much story, character interaction, was because that was the DM and players job. They couldn't predict what the character's were going to be like, thus they didn't even try.

You missed that whole bit where P&P RPGs came from a wargame background. Most P&P games were really lightweight on story unless you played with the kind of nerds who thinks it's cool to dress up and LARP for real.

Oh shut the fuck up you cock garbling moron. You don't have to be emo to enjoy a good story. Even so if you wanted to specify, I am punk, not emo. Emo is a modern evolution of the subcultures of the 80s and 90s. It's retarded self defeating sub-culture filled with massive idiocy, as all were. And no, I am not above seeing the perceived hypocrisy within that sentence, I accept it and acknowledge it, thus it is no longer a hypocrisy.

As far as Torment's story, considering some of the WoD games I've played in or seen, it ranks about a 4 on the rollings 10 point scale of emo.

Torment really has a basis in emofaggotry. It's very introspective, a play on morality and philosophical mindfucks and most of your companions score a 10 on the fucked up in the head scale, be it the succubi who doesn't want to be a succubi, the sad thiefling (I half expected her to slit her wrist by the end) and so on. Hell in the ending you learn that TNO tends to naturally attract "tormented" characters !
Also, you get a 10 on the fail scale for bringing up that you actually played WoD games because yeah it doesn't get stupider than WoD with P&P games, Vampire goes far in the depths of retardation.

True, and on the "pseudo" philosophy, that's kinda the whole fucking point. It's supposed to be barbaric, but still be possible to identify with. In that manner they succeeded, but it still rides just along the edge of what is realistic. There's worse in the real world, research just about any biker gang, or really any gang. I've never seen one with justifiable philosophies. It's one of those things about large groups of violent people.

I didn't care whether it was realistic or not so it's not what impacts my judgement. I just thought it was a waste of time writing so many lines of dialogue for such a retarded character. As for the real world it's not like I would be overjoyed to hold a debate on the nature of life with a member of the Hells Angels.

Yeah, that's why System Shock, Deus Ex and Bloodlines failed. These games were fucking awful, 'cause you coudn't miss from point-blank range!!!!!111!1!! Equipement matters, oh noes! I bet you loved Alpha Protocol then.

What are you doing here anyway ? since when is System Shock a RPG ? Deus Ex ?

It's a REAL-TIME, FIRST PERSON PERSPECTIVE game. It can't work exactly like the originals. Get that through your thick skull.

It's not, and will never be a Fallout in anything but name.

I hate these big open world type games too because of all of the nothing inbetween, But luckily unlike the original poster i know how to use the GECK and so all i did was make the run speed 2x as fast.

Yeah the original game sucks so let's mod it ourselves and make it better, that's not the role of the original developer right ?