Planescape: Torment - Profound changes

[Qwinn]

Oh, one last thing.

I -do- strongly recommend the Accelerated Banter tweak in the Tweak Pack. Even if you don't download any other tweak, I'd download that one. For one, it now disables the engine's method of creating banters which was prone to causing some serious bugs, such as occasionally being unable to talk to party members. Secondly, without it, you'll miss out on a LOT of content. In my own testing, in a long and thorough game I usually never got to see more than 12-20 banters in a given game, and it was usually the -same- 12 every game. There are 78 original ones, and 15 more restored in Unfinished Business if you decide to install that as well. It almost went into the Fixpack actually, but I decided not to because of one thing I couldn't do anything about - banters now pop up based on game time instead of real time. If it wasn't for that change, it -would- be in the Fixpack.

Other than that, are there any other tweaks safe for "purists" to use? Eh. I don't think there's anything wrong at all with the Stackable Items tweak, the game has enough inventory control issues even with it to give the sort of person who enjoys that sort of thing their fill. And Explore City Areas doesn't make the game any easier, it just makes you able to enjoy some of the beautiful area artwork that you can't fully uncover by exploration. Especially nice with thebigg's widescreen mod, and ghostdog's widescreen UI mod.

I personally really like the Save Nordom! tweak, so that you can enjoy all the party PC's content, but no, it's not for purists. I actually had to write some dialogue especially for it, so...

Qwinn

 

[David Xachaturian]

In short, would you be so kind to upload an entire list of mods that you beileve are worth being installed along with yours, Qwinn? Include it in readme or somewhere?

 

[Ravn7]

You can always look here
http://readme.spellholdstudios.net/QPST ... eadme.html

And Unfinished Business' readme is here
http://readme.spellholdstudios.net/PSTUB_Readme.html

 

[Qwinn]

Well, these are all my mods. All 3 of my mods already refer to each other in their respective readmes. The readmes of UB and the Tweak Pack are quite detailed to give you all you need to know to make an informed decision of whether you want to install any particular component.

Besides mine, the only mods I would suggest, depending on your monitor size, are thebigg's widescreen mod along with ghostdog's UI mod. thebigg's widescreen mod is hosted at Gibblerlings Three, and Ghostdog's UI mod is hosted right next to mine at SHS (and he links to the widescreen mod, since it's required to install his mod). They really do make a big difference in the graphics of the mod, and combined I think they go a long long way to update the graphics to be more in line with today's games.

Actually, my frail memory reminds me that there are some other UI mods out there that provide resolutions other than the ones Ghostdog supports? I'm not sure on the details on those, but I think they've actually been discussed on this forum more than anywhere else, so I'll let Ghostdog or whoever else fill in more information on those.

Qwinn

 

[Ravn7]

One is right here:

PS:T 1024x768 UI pack (v0.6) & UI modding discussion
http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=24932

 

[Gragt]

Qwinn > what you recommand is what I use: the Fixpack, all the recommended Unfinished Business pack options and the recommanded party banter acceleration, stackable items and city explored of the Tweak Pack, I do not touch the rest. I did not really try the screen size mods but might one day.

And thanks for your work, it is appreciated.

 

[Qwinn]

Well, I'm all kinds of embarrassed now.

I've been stating something that isn't true. To wit: All classes in PS:T do NOT gain a full hit die until level 10. Looking at the chart, I must've had a dyslexic moment or something, cause that's how they looked to me. But, in fact, rogues and wizards do indeed get a full hit die until level 10, and fighters and clerics only get a full hit die till level 9.

Doesn't change anything re: the mod. TNO will still gain hit dice as a warrior, so he'll gain 1-10 till level 9, not level 10. The Readme will be adjusted to account for that fact.

Qwinn

 

[poocolator]

I apologize for bashing the patch. I must have been drunk but In any case, I was pissed off at the state of today's SHITTY ASS MOTHERFUCKING ubercorporation-run, kiddy-fed gaming industry. Planescape is a great game, and your work makes it more playable and thusly, more enjoyable.

 

[drunkpriest]

Wow poo, you are a dumbfuck.

 

[hiver]

That was right thing to do.
cheers.

 

[poocolator]

Wow poo, you are a dumbfuck.

I love you too, but I can't help being an angry drunk. You should see me at "clubs" (we don't have any real ones around where I live, but call them that anyway, to make ourselves feel better).

Can I touch your peen to make you love me in return?

 

[Gragt]

Are your clubs bear pits or some kind?

 

[Cassidy]

If it makes the Modron maze and all the dungeons of the game more passable, it is worth a download. I'm too much of a completist regarding NPCs to not give up that optional dungeon. Now a mod that gives TNO a chance to tamper with the infamous Maze and somehow disable its foes through the right dialogue choices would really be better.

 

[poocolator]

Are your clubs bear pits or some kind?

If by bear pits, you mean clubs full of hairy homosexuals... then no... unfortunately we don't have that luxury here >.<

 

[Sodomy]

*ignores the past few pages of pointless bickering*

The problem with losing the THAC0 is this: anyone who wants to play a mage effectively loses 5 levels if those 5 fighter levels they get before meeting Mebbeth no longer do anything for them. Translation: Fighter becomes the only reasonable class from a powergaming perspective. I'd guess that keeping the THAC0 and using a smaller hit-die for the mage was a balance decision that was made after the manual was printed in order to fix this issue.

 

[mondblut]

So, in order to keep THAC0 as the developers intended, do I have to erase the following in PST-Fix/tph/enginefixes.tph:

SPRINT "Q_Patch_Name" ~19a. Class-Based THACO update~
// On level up, accessing lookup table for THAC0 and updating value based on class/level (injected code)
// offset: 0x0003A2A6
// replace 2cd: 8B 8D 44 FF FF FF 81 C1 84 0C 00 00 51 8B 8D 44 FF FF FF 81 C1 40 26 00 00 51 A1 6C F9 96 00 8B 88 06 35 00 00 E8 C4 9B 14 00 8B 8D 44 FF FF FF 81 C1 F0 04 00 00 88 41 4A E8 25 2E 02 00 66 8B 85 30 FF FF FF C3 90
// replace 4cd: 8B 8D 44 FF FF FF 81 C1 84 0C 00 00 51 8B 8D 44 FF FF FF 81 C1 40 26 00 00 51 A1 1C E8 96 00 8B 88 06 35 00 00 E8 04 9C 14 00 8B 8D 44 FF FF FF 81 C1 F0 04 00 00 88 41 4A E8 65 2E 02 00 66 8B 85 30 FF FF FF C3 90

SET Q_Starting_Offset = 0x3A2A6
SET Q_Replace_Offset = 0

SET searchlength = 0
SPRINT searchpattern ~~
SPRINT searchbytes ~~

SET replacelength = 71
SPRINT replacepattern ~12345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901~
PATCH_IF Q_VER = 2 BEGIN SPRINT replacebytes ~8B 8D 44 FF FF FF 81 C1 84 0C 00 00 51 8B 8D 44 FF FF FF 81 C1 40 26 00 00 51 A1 6C F9 96 00 8B 88 06 35 00 00 E8 C4 9B 14 00 8B 8D 44 FF FF FF 81 C1 F0 04 00 00 88 41 4A E8 25 2E 02 00 66 8B 85 30 FF FF FF C3 90~ END
ELSE BEGIN SPRINT replacebytes ~8B 8D 44 FF FF FF 81 C1 84 0C 00 00 51 8B 8D 44 FF FF FF 81 C1 40 26 00 00 51 A1 1C E8 96 00 8B 88 06 35 00 00 E8 04 9C 14 00 8B 8D 44 FF FF FF 81 C1 F0 04 00 00 88 41 4A E8 65 2E 02 00 66 8B 85 30 FF FF FF C3 90~ END

LAUNCH_PATCH_MACRO Q_Pattern_Maker
LAUNCH_PATCH_MACRO Q_Engine_Patcher

SPRINT "Q_Patch_Name" ~19b. Class-Based THACO update~
// calling code above from SetNamelessClass()
// search: 66 8B 85 30 FF FF FF 8B 4D F4
// replace 2cd: E8 73 B1 FC FF 90 90 8B 4D F4
// replace 4cd: E8 33 B1 FC FF 90 90 8B 4D F4

SET Q_Starting_Offset = 0x6F100
SET Q_Replace_Offset = 0

SET searchlength = 10
SPRINT searchpattern ~1234567890~
SPRINT searchbytes ~66 8B 85 30 FF FF FF 8B 4D F4~

SET replacelength = 10
SPRINT replacepattern ~1234567890~
PATCH_IF Q_VER = 2 BEGIN SPRINT replacebytes ~E8 73 B1 FC FF 90 90 8B 4D F4~ END
ELSE BEGIN SPRINT replacebytes ~E8 33 B1 FC FF 90 90 8B 4D F4~ END

LAUNCH_PATCH_MACRO Q_Pattern_Maker
LAUNCH_PATCH_MACRO Q_Engine_Patcher

SPRINT "Q_Patch_Name" ~19c. Class-Based THACO update~

// Disable the TNO specific code inside THAC0 table lookup which was a copy and paste of "FIGHTER_MAGE_THIEF". Instead use the generic lookup table which resolves THAC0 not updating properly on class change or level up.
// search: 8B 4D 0C 83 B9 8A 00 00 00 01 0F 85 A1
// replace: E9 AC 00 00 00 90 90 90 90 90 0F 85 A1

SET Q_Starting_Offset = 0x183F00
SET Q_Replace_Offset = 0

SET searchlength = 13
SPRINT searchpattern ~1234567890123~
SPRINT searchbytes ~8B 4D 0C 83 B9 8A 00 00 00 01 0F 85 A1~

SET replacelength = 13
SPRINT replacepattern ~1234567890123~
SPRINT replacebytes ~E9 AC 00 00 00 90 90 90 90 90 0F 85 A1~

LAUNCH_PATCH_MACRO Q_Pattern_Maker
LAUNCH_PATCH_MACRO Q_Engine_Patcher

?

Or there is more to do? Thank you.

 

[Qwinn]

I'd guess that keeping the THAC0 and using a smaller hit-die for the mage was a balance decision that was made after the manual was printed in order to fix this issue.

Well, the smaller hit die is absolutely, definitely a bug, confirmed by Chris Avellone as of two weeks ago, so the notion that THACO was intended and the hit die was used to balance it doesn't wash.

Oh, and Chris Avellone did also say that the THACO fix "makes sense from a balance standpoint", so that would, I think, kill the idea that transferring THACO was done specifically to balance things as you suggest.

And it's not -just- the manual that says THACO wasn't intended to cross classes. It's also the dialogue of every class trainer in game. And the fact that every other class mechanic in the game is consistent with the manual and the dialogues. And the fact that it wrecks class balance. The THACO thing flies in the face of every other possible piece of evidence. Please don't try to kid anyone besides yourself... if you're looking to get it back in the game, you're trying to exploit a bug. I'm not gonna help ya do that.

By the way, I don't think the "losing 5 levels means the only powergamer option is fighter" is true at all. First, there's the big chunk of XP from going through the Circle with Dak'kon that can be done the moment you become a mage, and only as a mage, that puts you right back up to level 5. For another, a specialized mage gets a minimum bonus 30,000 xp talking to Ravel... double or triple that if your fighter has less than 17 INT, which would be expected... so that right there offsets all that "lost" xp (and, by your logic, it was probably done on purpose precisely to offset your "wasted" levels). And thieves get many many many more levels than either other class just based on their much easier xp table.

Qwinn

P.S. I was really replying to two different people with that post, hopefully it's clear which bits were meant to address which person, sorry if it's unclear.

 

[Sodomy]

Ah, I hadn't taken into consideration the Circle, and didn't know there was extra XP for pure mages in the conversation with Ravel (it's been over a year since I last played it to completion). With that in mind, you've almost certainly made the right decision.

 

[Qwinn]

Thanks kindly for hearing my arguments out with an open mind, and replying

Qwinn

 

[Sodomy]

Reply after starting a new game with the fixpack, tweakpack, and unfinished business:

I left the Mortuary at level 4 (zombie disguise, ditch it after talking to Deionarra, talk to Soego to exit), and managed to become a mage before gaining another level, so it's 3 levels that need to be made up (given that a first time player probably wouldn't know to go straight to Mebbeth, 4 is probably a safer value to assume, but 3 works for purposes of discussion).

I got 1 level-up immediately after making the change to mage (I didn't recall the quest giving that much XP on completion), and 1 for doing the first 7 discs of the circle (I remembered there being an 8th- I'm sure that missle of patience isn't the final spell you get from it- but I lack the ability to slide the discs into that configuration yet). That's still a level short for the first half of the game (two levels for someone who doesn't know the game and can't metagame it), but given the equpiment advantage mages get, plus getting the warrior-sized hit die (which is better than normal for a mage), it should be balanced. Do you get the hit die when leveling in a class that isn't your highest (I didn't pay enough attention to know for certain)? If so, then it's even better for mages, as lower levels are gained faster, thus giving the mage MORE HP than the pure fighter, oddly enough (obviously, that's before factoring in the Con bonus).

EDIT- I just realized that the XP chart for mages is steeper than fighters, which explains the 1 level. Looks like the math works out pretty well.

 

[Qwinn]

Do you get the hit die when leveling in a class that isn't your highest (I didn't pay enough attention to know for certain)?

No. In the original game, you'd get 1hp whenever you leveled in your non-highest class, but that was a bug too, and has been fixed. According to the manual, you should get no hit points at all when you level in a non-highest class, and that's how it works in the Fixpack. Previously, that bug was making up for a good chunk of the mage/thief shortfall and giving fighters more hp than they ever should've gotten.

I got 1 level-up immediately after making the change to mage (I didn't recall the quest giving that much XP on completion), and 1 for doing the first 7 discs of the circle (I remembered there being an 8th- I'm sure that missle of patience isn't the final spell you get from it- but I lack the ability to slide the discs into that configuration yet).

There is an eighth circle, and it's got the biggest xp boost by far. It's 6000xp just for the protagonist to unlock the circle (18 INT) and 10000 to talk to Dak'kon about it (19 WIS). It's possible to get it early with well thought out stats and a couple of Fell's tattoos. But I suspect most people without metagaming knowledge probably don't get it until that sort of xp boost is a lot less significant.

If so, then it's even better for mages, as lower levels are gained faster, thus giving the mage MORE HP than the pure fighter, oddly enough (obviously, that's before factoring in the Con bonus).

Well, mages actually level slower than fighters until level 7, then faster than fighters until 14, then slower again forever. This is part of the actual 2nd ed. D&D rules. Since you only gain full hit dice until level 9, I'd say what you're saying is significantly the case only between levels 7 and 9, and not by that much even then.

Speaking of the CON bonus, everyone in your party continues to get the full CON bonus even after you're no longer getting full hit dice, which is against 2nd ed. rules. This is pretty significant, as pretty much all your NPC's have enough CON to get a bonus. Most can have 18 CON by the end game. Probably should fix that too. It certainly doesn't help game balance any. The late game can hardly be said to be too difficult, even with my existing fixes, and even with the proposed elimination of that bonus at levels above 10.

It's not really surprising that that mechanic would be broken. I believe PS:T inherited the engine directly from BG1, and you never got enough levels in BG1 for it to be an issue. I asked scient to take a look at the BG2 engine to see how they handle it.

Qwinn

 

[Oeolycus]

So Qwinn,

With as many playthroughs as you've done, do you have a recommendation for TNO's class combination and stats? I've played once with a mage and a high enough wisdom to unlock most of the plot elements.

I think I'm going to retry as a fighter. I just can't decide if I want to leave his wisdom at or around 15-18, push it to the max, or leave it alone all together. I've played through once, so a significantly different approach is attractive. At the same time, it might suck since the wisdom checks are frequent and awesome.

Also, who are your favorite companions (especially considering the increased dialogues)?

 

[Qwinn]

My next playthrough - probably not for quite some time -will actually be as a thief, I think. They got a lot of love in this last release. And I'll probably try it as a chaotic anarchist type as well. I've usually gone the Lawful route.

I've never tried playing without high wisdom, but I probably should, just so I can check out the dialogue and correct typos and stuff in the "dumber" options. Still, if you start the game with as little as 12 wisdom, boosts during the game should have you ending up around 19 wisdom, which isn't that bad and should pass most checks. It's just such a massively useful stat, though, not just from the stat checks but for the huge experience bonuses too.

It seems like you can get almost everything interesting out of Vhailor and Ignus when you first meet them, so I just go with the others: Morte, Dak'kon, Annah, FFG, and Nordom. I will sometimes use the Save Nordom! tweak I wrote so I can take Vhailor just till I get back to Sigil and then dump him again for Nordom. Vhailor's only got 3 banters, and they will come up before any other banters after you pick him up (it would've been exponentially more difficult to do the banter accelerator if I hadn't given him priority like that) so that's long enough to milk Vhailor for most of the dialoguy goodness he's good for. (Though, it should be noted, he definitely does react, all in the original dialogue, should you play the Expanded Deionarra's Truth mod and get enough information to confess your crimes to Iannis the Advocate...)

Qwinn

 

[mondblut]

Oh, and Chris Avellone did also say that the THACO fix "makes sense from a balance standpoint"

But no sense from any other. You see, unlike casting spells or picking pockets, slicing shit with a dagger is an activity *every* class happily engages on. In this thread I still haven't seen an explanation of THAC0 drop other than crying balance. Does an ex-fighter tie one hand to his back? Intentionally miss and fumble half the time? Or years (well....days, since we're speaking CRPG) of training mystically leave his brain and body? Eh?

The THACO thing flies in the face of every other possible piece of evidence. Please don't try to kid anyone besides yourself...

Anything which is not expressly stated as a bug, is a feature. The rest is pure assumtion.

if you're looking to get it back in the game, you're trying to exploit a bug. I'm not gonna help ya do that.

That's an answer as good as any.

 

[Qwinn]

You see, unlike casting spells or picking pockets, slicing shit with a dagger is an activity *every* class happily engages on. In this thread I still haven't seen an explanation of THAC0 drop other than crying balance.

Then you haven't read very closely, I don't think.

For one: The express statement in the manual that:

he cannot access any of the other classes' abilities when he is specializing in one of the classes.

This is hard evidence of designer intent that TNO is supposed to be a single class character in any given class, not a multi or dual class character.

THACO is -the- primary fighter ability. It is the entire basis of the class. THACO is every bit as much the core of the fighter class as spells are to the mage. Everything else is fluff, especially when edged weapons are every bit as potent as hammers/clubs/axes. Superior, actually, since daggers in the game have the best weapon speed, and all other stats are identical. (I'm looking at Celestial Fire and the Entropic Blade in saying this, weapons that exist in all forms).

And as Chris Avellone readily agreed to once I pointed it out, it doesn't make any more sense that you forget how to hide or stick a dagger in someone's back than it does forgetting how to fight them -well- when they actually know you're there and trying to dodge your attacks.

Or years (well....days, since we're speaking CRPG) of training mystically leave his brain and body? Eh?

This was discussed, and perfectly plausible reasons have already been offered - like, for example, since a lot of his skills come from subconscious memories of previous incarnations, it is perfectly plausible that he can't access -all- of his previous incarnations' memories -simultaneously-. Besides, yes, it's also entirely plausible that you can't focus as much on the finer points of combat with dozens of spells swimming around in your head.

Qwinn