Planescape: Torment - Profound changes

[mondblut]

Yawn.

All your arguments are bullshit, and self-evidently so.

That's the best argument you came up with so far.

Making the game what moondblut wanted it to be is not part of the mission statement.

True. Making the game what Qwinn wanted it to be is a part of the mission statement. Too bad PST occasionally gets on the way, but who cares?

Therefore, don't use my fixpack. Mkay? Mkay.

 

[Qwinn]

Holy fucking crap. Are you kidding me? You've been ceaselessly bitching about my fixing this bug for three fucking pages, and the fact that after discovering you are immune to logic or reason, I told you "Fine, don't fucking play it then" makes -me- the fucking crybaby?

Wow. You are beyond parody.

Seriously... if there's anyone here who still thinks this asshole has half a point to make, I present it to you, once again:

trais wrote:
Ok, I get it. Actually being better at hitting things with weapons is not fighter speciality.

"Better" is relative.

Anyone who thinks someone who can state something this mind-numbingly moronic - I mean it, seriously, that's such a fucking obnoxiously dumb and disingenuous response it makes my head hurt - is making a good case and knows the whole how-to-design-a-fun-game thing inside and out, feel free to wait till he can stop flinging the sand from his vagina at people and makes his own Fixpack the way he thinks it should be. You know. The one where mages intentionally fight better than fighters, cause "better" is relative.

Qwinn

 

[mondblut]

Ok, going by your issue with keeping the game as it was originally coded you should roll back all the morale fixes as well.

Who said anything about keeping it "originally coded"? Originally designed is the mantra of the day. A bug is when something is not functioning as the design intended it to, due to erroneous original code. The Avellone statements show us quite clearly that original THAC0 system was WAD and he doesn't see the way it worked as a coding error that runs contrary to the design decisions they made.

Why? Because I rewrote the system entirely. What? You don't want to be stuck with 10 morale throughout the game? Well, that's the way it was explicitly coded...no bug there.

If the game was designed to feature the changing morale yet it is stuck on 10, that's an error in code and therefore a bug which you are very kind to fix for us. If the game was designed to feature the permanent morale of 10 and it is stuck on 10, that's WAD, and changing it constitutes as modding (which is also fine and thank-you as an option for an alternate gaming experience to those who want to try it that way).

 

[Qwinn]

The Avellone statements show us quite clearly that original THAC0 system was WAD

What the hell are you smoking? He said nothing of the kind. You are now totally making shit up out of whole cloth. It's getting pretty pathetic.

The manual is a valid statement of designer intent. Your entire argument hinges on Fighter THACO not being an "ability" specific to the fighter class, which is absurd, as evidenced by such brilliant statements as "Better is relative" being pulled out of your ass to defend it.

Qwinn

 

[mondblut]

What the hell are you smoking? He said nothing of the kind. You are now totally making shit up out of whole cloth. It's getting pretty pathetic.

"Feels odd to me"
"I could go either way"
"I don't have a firm judgment on it"


That's in bold for ya, mr. The Real Planescape Creator.

 

[Qwinn]

Um, yeah, I'm still looking for how any of even those selectively edited sentence fragments equate to a "clear" statement that "it is working as designed".

mr. The Real Planescape Creator.

Nah, I'm not "mr. The Real Planescape Creator." However, I do have direct authority to adjudicate the matter explicitly granted to me by the actual "mr. The Real Planescape Creator". What have you got?

Qwinn

 

[mondblut]

Um, yeah, I'm still looking for how any of even those selectively edited words equate to a "clear" statement that "it is working as designed".

Quite simple. Avellone designs a game. 10 years later you tell him a certain feature doesn't work as it should in your most holy opinion. He responds it "feels odd" and "he has no firm judgement". In other words, he was perfectly satisfied with existing system until you started to pester him.

(And considering your charming personality, no wonder he told you to have your way, as long as you left him alone )

However, I do have direct authority to adjudicate the matter handed to me by the actual "mr. The Real Planescape Creator". What have you got?

Why, good luck with *your* game, mister

 

[Qwinn]

Ya know, I never tried to put words in CA's mouth. I've not extended anything he said to mean anything beyond the plain meaning of his words.

You're the one who's deciding that you know what he -really- meant. Cause, you know, of the -layers- of subtext and meaning.

How one gets that agreement that it is unbalanced as it is means that's the way it was designed, I have no idea. Oh wait, that's right, you chop those words out every time you quote him. I forgot how convenient that is.

And never mind his "Fair enough! " when I responded that the reason it "felt odd" to him already existed in other class mechanics, and I would only be making it consistent. You're right, he must've just said that to get rid of me. Therefore, even CA's explicit statements carry no weight with you. We should all therefore dismiss everything anyone in the world says, even the designer of the game, and just go with moondblut's "holy opinion".

BTW, if he didn't want to deal with me, he could've just, you know, not answered. Cause I can tell you, I don't think I've written -nearly- enough mail in his direction that it can really be called "pestering". These two issues and the Expanded Deionarra's mod, out of everything I've done, are the only design questions I ever asked him.

Qwinn

 

[Silellak]

Mondblut is, of course, forgetting the end of that quote:

so I'd leave it up to you

so I'd leave it up to you

so I'd leave it up to you

 

[Qwinn]

Here's other things CA has said to me in order to get rid of me:

Good to hear from you - and thanks so much for the work you've done. You make my heart happy.

And then he put me in contact with another PS:T designer, Colin McComb, because he figured he'd spread the pestering to a friend of his.

Hey, Paul, I added Colin McComb to this email (he was responsible for the Foundry area), he may be able to help with the Dreambuilder quest. I will say, however, that what you have below sounds like a damn good progression to me.

(Colin, Paul is working on the Planescape patches and adding content we didn't have a chance to do with the release of the game.)

The "damn good progression" was in reference to my outline for the Expanded Deionarra's Truth mod, btw. To which Colin kindly added "Holy crap, good work!" when I sent him the full dialogue.

But yer right. I'm just a pest and they're just trying to get rid of me. moondblut knows how it is. They whisper to him at night. In his sweaty dreams.

Qwinn

 

[mondblut]

You're the one who's deciding that you know what he -really- meant. Cause, you know, of the -layers- of subtext and meaning.

Nah, but it's rather obvious what he meant *not*. He meant not "How could that slip through our QA? that's not how I wanted it to work! it's a bug!".

And whatever is not a bug, is a feature. The rest is abso-fucking-lutely irrelevant.

You're right, he must've just said that to get rid of me.

Wouldn't blame him

Mondblut is, of course, forgetting the end of that quote:

so I'd leave it up to you

Why, good luck with *your* game, mister

See, I am forgetting nothing

 

[mondblut]

The "damn good progression" was in reference to my outline for the Expanded Deionarra's Truth mod, btw. To which Colin kindly added "Holy crap, good work!" when I sent him the full dialogue.

Look, nobody is questioning the quality of your bugfixes and mods (I haven't seen them, but willingly believe they are great), your dedication and whatever. There, all fuzzy now? No need to namedrop around, we're unimpressed. Your personality traits are a different matter altogether, but that's not relevant.

 

[Qwinn]

EDIT: Never mind, Silellak says it better below. Thank you.

Qwinn

 

[Silellak]

The "damn good progression" was in reference to my outline for the Expanded Deionarra's Truth mod, btw. To which Colin kindly added "Holy crap, good work!" when I sent him the full dialogue.

Look, nobody is questioning the quality of your bugfixes and mods (I haven't seen them, but willingly believe they are great), your dedication and whatever. There, all fuzzy now? No need to namedrop around, we're unimpressed. Your personality traits are a different matter altogether, but that's not relevant.

If he were just namedropping entirely off-topic, then you're right, he'd just be making an ass of himself, in which case he'd still fit in perfectly at the Codex.

However, his namedropping was in direct response to the fact you "interpreted" what CA said to match what you wanted it to mean. In response, he simply proved evidence that the former Torment developers he has been in contact with view him as a talented modder who is helping to better a game they put a lot of work into themselves, and not just some annoying fanboy who sends CA e-mails until he agrees with him.

 

[mondblut]

claim that CA expressly and clearly said..."...

The Avellone statements show us quite clearly...

For somebody modding such a text-heavy game, you seem to have a hard time comprehanding the finer points of the language.

(No, genius, the absence of evidence is not equal to the evidence of absence,

The court, unless proven otherwise, disagrees. Formal logic, stating that abscence needs no evidences but presence does, agrees with the gentlemen in wigs.

nor is a lack of confirmation that something is a bug the equivalent of stating it is WAD).

The benefit of the doubt goes in favor of the original creators.

-Then-, you belittled my communication with him by claiming he just gave me the authority to adjudicate this change to get rid of me.

did you ever realize what an easy trolling target you make yourself with every post?

 

[Qwinn]

The benefit of the doubt goes in favor of the original creators.

Who are apparently to be ignored when they say "I'll leave it up to you."

And the original creators should also be doubted when they stated in the manual that "he cannot access any of the other classes' abilities when he is specializing in one of the classes". In that case, we engage in some ridiculous doublethink that argues that a fighter's ability to hit things much better than any other class isn't in fact a class ability, and besides, "better is relative".

And we doubt the creators when they made sure that every class trainer says things to the effect of "you cannot be a warrior and an X at the same time", "being class X requires your entire focus", and "I wish to abandon the way of the sword". That? That's just "in game babble".

No, the creators are to be very much doubted in every single one of those cases. Instead, the only thing we don't doubt is the results of what the Black Isle PS:T guy hacking the Bioware Infinity Engine did. Cause there wasn't one single other bug in the engine. O wait.

The fact that you focus like a laser on the single thing that supports your argument, and -massively- doubt and belittle the half dozen other sources from the original creators that go against your express sentiment that the way -all- D&D games handle this issue is "stupid", is pure coincidence, of course. I can tell you're arguing from deep conviction, and not being a disingenuous troll.

do you ever realized what an easy trolling target you make yourself with every post?

It's worth it, since it's gotten you to finally admit to the fact that trolling is what you've been doing all along.

Qwinn

 

[mondblut]

Who are apparently to be ignored when they say "I'll leave it up to you."

How so? Did I ever question your right to mod any game any way you wish, with the authors' blessing or not?

Just try not to fool people that your vision is Avellone's one.

And the original creators should also be doubted when they stated in the manual that "he cannot access any of the other classes' abilities when he is specializing in one of the classes". In that case, we engage in some ridiculous doublethink that argues that a fighter's ability to hit things much better than any other class isn't in fact a class ability, and besides, "better is relative".

And we doubt the creators when they made sure that every class trainer says things to the effect of "you cannot be a warrior and an X at the same time", "being class X requires your entire focus", and "I wish to abandon the way of the sword". That? That's just "in game babble".

Oh shi...

http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=656290#656290

The fact that you focus like a laser on the single thing that supports your argument, and -massively- doubt and belittle the half dozen other sources from the original creators that go against your express sentiment that the way -all- D&D games handle this issue is "stupid", is pure coincidence, of course. I can tell you're arguing from deep conviction, and not being a disingenuous troll.

The D&D games didn't feature characters who can switch between classes at will, did they? A dualclass is an once-a-lifetime decision supposed to coincide with a severe personality and environment change.
(not like that makes its mechanics less of being kinda retarded, but oh well)

It's worth it, since it's gotten you to finally admit to the fact that trolling is what you've been doing all along.

What else to do on the intarnetz?

 

[Qwinn]

It's worth it, since it's gotten you to finally admit to the fact that trolling is what you've been doing all along.

What else to do on the intarnetz?

Gee. I don't know. Let me think.... what could I -possibly- do on the intarnetz besides troll?

Ung. Maybe someday I'll think of something.



I won't feed the troll anymore, sorry folks. And thanks kindly to those who came in for the defense.

Qwinn

 

[Sodomy]

Bug report- with all three mods, after finding out where Pharod gets his bodies from, it won't let me talk to Sharegrave.

 

[scient]

Bug report- with all three mods, after finding out where Pharod gets his bodies from, it won't let me talk to Sharegrave.

Does Sharegrave acknowledge the quest? Like does he say "The man nods the slightest greeting. "Have you done what I asked of you? Found out what he's up to?" "?

 

[Sodomy]

It wouldn't let me talk to sharegrave at ALL. I got the dialogue cursor, but when I clicked on him, no dialogue box.

Turns out the error was fixable by saving, and reloading from that save. Still odd.

 

[David Xachaturian]

Hey, shut the fuck up and stop trolling Qwinn. Unlike some others I could name, he gets the job done in time.

 

[Sodomy]

Another annoying bug that I'm wondering if it's fixable:

Every time I rest, my "auto-run" option gets turned off.

 

[scient]

That sounds like a bad install, did you do a complete clean install like delete the override folder and such? I have never experienced resting causing it to mess with settings or heard anyone else complain about it. If you did do a clean install, not sure maybe Qwinn has a better idea. I tested just to be sure with resting via dialog (Phineas T. Lort) and resting in an area (tomb near Mortuary). Neither of them reset the auto run setting.

As for having to reload to talk to sharegrave, that's odd. Usually it's other party members that this happens to which seemed to have been caused by Qwinn's banter system conflicting with the engine. Ever since I figured out how to disable it, that problem went away. Again, if you haven't done a complete clean install this might be why. I'll keep an eye out when I get to that point to see if the same thing happens to me.

 

[Qwinn]

Usually it's other party members that this happens to which seemed to have been caused by Qwinn's banter system conflicting with the engine.

Nah, the problem being talked about actually used to happen quite a bit in the vanilla game. There were other issues that may have been caused by conflicting banter systems, but the can't-talk-to-NPC thing is ancient. Installing the banter accelerator and totally disabling the original engine banter system, though, seems to have cured 95% if not all of it.

Never did encounter the can't-talk-to-Sharegrave thing as you describe it before, except as far as it resembles the ancient bug I just mentioned. Let me know if it happens again, but since it doesn't seem to be reproducible (you can't send me a save game that keeps the problem, heh), not sure what I can do. Still, will be good to have an idea of the frequency.

Qwinn