Bard's Tale The Bard's Tale IV: Barrows Deep - Director's Cut

[Biggus]

 

[muds_animal_friend]

I don't see why people need respec ... like 12-13 hours in.

There's a connection there. Ditto with the others who here who don't see the point and are only a dozen hours in.

Some people, not me mind you, really like to stick with story companions. Later in the game you'll get story companions at high levels who, like as not, aren't built in a way that fits with the existing party. Respec would fix this.

But, more importantly, the skill tree is a minefield of bugs. There are no free slots left in the Adventure's Guild in my game because it's filled with characters I dumped due to their skill picks being bugged in some way or other. It feels like I've found more bugs in this game than inXile's QA ever did. Respec would at least allow working around bugs, which may never be fixed, without having to create a new frigging character every time.

Also, it's not as if respec opens up D:OS 2 levels of abuse in a game where you can swap characters in and out of the guild. Those levels of abuse are already there. You can do cheesy shit like stick all the potion crafting skills on a character who does nothing but sit in the guild until you need to swap him into the party to craft potions. The same for the top level thief skill when shopping. Respec wouldn't open up exploits that aren't already there.

 

[theSavant]

I can't bear it any longer. Must.Try.Game.

*Downloads game on 9 year old laptop* (probably pointless, but I recently got an UE4 game to run at 5 fps).

 

[aweigh]

9yo laptop? BT4?

Let us know if you survive.

 

[Bohr]

Did someone link this article already? Rogers... BT4... Gaider and 'toxic fans'.

https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/bards...lgia-gaming-toxic-fandom-inxile-entertainment

(Extract)
David Rogers, creative lead for inXile's The Bard's Tale IV: Barrows Deep, understands the stakes of his job. "I am holding people's childhoods," he acknowledged to SYFY WIRE earlier this month.

-
Veteran game developer David Gaider isn't involved in The Bard's Tale, but he's worked on numerous franchises that have become cultural touchstones, including Baldur's Gate and Dragon Age. "These existing fans can be a double-edged sword," he told SYFY WIRE. "They want it to stay the same, but they also want it to be completely new."

Rogers and inXile had a daunting task in designing The Bard's Tale IV. The game needed enough nostalgic flavor and familiar gameplay elements to appeal to those fans who fondly recall the original while also incorporating modern game design innovations. Rogers' solution included imagining what The Bard's Tale would be like if it had been coming out every couple of years like a long-running IP. "We're kind of thinking of this as The Bard's Tale Fourteen," he says. This approach provided creative agency to the design team, allowing them to excise outdated gameplay mechanics. What it didn't do, however, is solve for fan expectations.

While nostalgia fuels a reboot, it has a pronounced downside: It can empower toxic factions of fandoms.

-
This is ever-present in the intimate gaming universe. Gaider points out that it's partly "just social media has meant that creators and fans are very close." Anyone can publicly react to a creative decision and this feedback can be weaponized.

Gaider values the intimacy of the gaming ecosystem but acknowledges that it can stymie the artistic process. "Feedback should be fine from a creator's standpoint, we like receiving feedback. It's when it's [an] avalanche — each individual person, it's nothing — but when you've got this wave of feedback it can seem overwhelming." He's quick to point out that his experiences pale in comparison to what female creatives go through. "When people come rushing at me, chances are they talk about my work... At worst they would slip in ad hominem... Whereas female colleagues of mine — that's where they start."

While the Bard's Tale community has been largely positive, Rogers has still had to contend with the fact that each fan has a different vision for The Bard's Tale IV. In the lead up to the game's release, message boards on the Steam page were full of people ready to criticize the game for any deviation from the original or more importantly, from their memory of the original. Rogers says that he sees conflict between these memories and his creation. "There [is] unavoidable [conflict]: these two visions can't exist in the same game world. It can't be grim and light-hearted. It can't be colorful and dank. There's an extent where we have to say, 'I'm sorry, our vision doesn't line up with yours.'"

-
Rogers says that fan feedback throughout the creative process resulted in positive changes for The Bard's Tale IV. He points out that games have a different circumstance than other more passive mediums like film or TV. Playing a game requires audience participation, and that engagement often spills over. "I've given up a lot of ownership over the game… It's a conversation. There's the dungeon master and the player." As an example, the character portrait design and direction improved after fans expressed disappointment in the first iterations. In this instance, the passion of the intended audience helped advance the design.

The balance of responsibility and creation, however, is not easily discerned. The point at which nostalgia-driven fan expectations eclipse artistic possibilities can be frustrating both to creators and to less outspoken members of the fandom.

full text

David Rogers, creative lead for inXile's The Bard's Tale IV: Barrows Deep, understands the stakes of his job. "I am holding people's childhoods," he acknowledged to SYFY WIRE earlier this month.

Last Tuesday, the new game was released a full 30 years after the series' last installment, The Bard's Tale III. The first Bard's Tale came out in 1985 and was one of the earliest successful turn-based cRPGs. But since the mid-'80s, the genre has grown and changed significantly, leading to some of the most important and influential games ever made.

Video games are still a young medium compared to film and television, but they've been around long enough to be swept up in the cultural push for nostalgia-based franchise resurrections. While series such as Zelda, Mario, or Final Fantasy have consistently churned out new releases, they are the exception. Most titles disappear from cultural relevance.

This newest Bard's Tale sequel was made possible by fan passion. A 2015 Kickstarter campaign rallied 33,000 backers to raise over $1.5 million dollars. While this enthusiasm may seem unambiguously positive, it hides a complex tension.

Veteran game developer David Gaider isn't involved in The Bard's Tale, but he's worked on numerous franchises that have become cultural touchstones, including Baldur's Gate and Dragon Age. "These existing fans can be a double-edged sword," he told SYFY WIRE. "They want it to stay the same, but they also want it to be completely new."

Rogers and inXile had a daunting task in designing The Bard's Tale IV. The game needed enough nostalgic flavor and familiar gameplay elements to appeal to those fans who fondly recall the original while also incorporating modern game design innovations. Rogers' solution included imagining what The Bard's Tale would be like if it had been coming out every couple of years like a long-running IP. "We're kind of thinking of this as The Bard's Tale Fourteen," he says. This approach provided creative agency to the design team, allowing them to excise outdated gameplay mechanics. What it didn't do, however, is solve for fan expectations.

While nostalgia fuels a reboot, it has a pronounced downside: It can empower toxic factions of fandoms.

Deeply invested audiences eagerly await the evolution of beloved IPs, but the line between appreciation and ownership can become blurred, especially when fans have staked their own money in a project. What's more, people with a childhood or adolescent love for a specific IP can make their fandom a core part of their identity. These properties, then, become highly idealized and must be protected at any cost. Case in point: numerous Star Wars fans hate the latest Skywalker trilogy for specious reasons, and loudly proclaim the superiority of the original films. The 2016 Ghostbusters reboot sparked a wave of outrage that eclipsed any nuanced discussion about the film's merits or flaws.

This is ever-present in the intimate gaming universe. Gaider points out that it's partly "just social media has meant that creators and fans are very close." Anyone can publicly react to a creative decision and this feedback can be weaponized.

Gaider values the intimacy of the gaming ecosystem but acknowledges that it can stymie the artistic process. "Feedback should be fine from a creator's standpoint, we like receiving feedback. It's when it's [an] avalanche — each individual person, it's nothing — but when you've got this wave of feedback it can seem overwhelming." He's quick to point out that his experiences pale in comparison to what female creatives go through. "When people come rushing at me, chances are they talk about my work... At worst they would slip in ad hominem... Whereas female colleagues of mine — that's where they start."

While the Bard's Tale community has been largely positive, Rogers has still had to contend with the fact that each fan has a different vision for The Bard's Tale IV. In the lead up to the game's release, message boards on the Steam page were full of people ready to criticize the game for any deviation from the original or more importantly, from their memory of the original. Rogers says that he sees conflict between these memories and his creation. "There [is] unavoidable [conflict]: these two visions can't exist in the same game world. It can't be grim and light-hearted. It can't be colorful and dank. There's an extent where we have to say, 'I'm sorry, our vision doesn't line up with yours.'"

Part of the magic of nostalgia is the way it threads a fan's emotional life from a specific time into the inherent heft of the work. When we revisit something we loved as children, our more discerning adult eyes can often see flaws we didn't notice when we were younger. Nostalgia allows us to forget those flaws and it can add a personal resonance that creates a richer experience. But returning to a world we haven't visited in a long time is bound to feel different because we have evolved.

"I think there's something inherently destructive about sequels in general," Rogers points out. "Because if you liked the Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers the next book can't actually be Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers. Something has to change. A character has to die, new characters have to be introduced. You have to be in a new land. There has to be a new problem. You can't advance a series without changing it."

One of the ways Rogers and inXile approached the problem was to release a remastered version of the first game. This gave fans who wanted an updated version of their remembered joy exactly that, while reminding players about the actuality of the original Bard's Tale. Rogers then chose to set The Bard's Tale IV 150 years after the events of the original trilogy, allowing for the creation of a fresh story that could work for old and new fans while also providing callbacks and references for more seasoned adventurers.

Rogers says that fan feedback throughout the creative process resulted in positive changes for The Bard's Tale IV. He points out that games have a different circumstance than other more passive mediums like film or TV. Playing a game requires audience participation, and that engagement often spills over. "I've given up a lot of ownership over the game… It's a conversation. There's the dungeon master and the player." As an example, the character portrait design and direction improved after fans expressed disappointment in the first iterations. In this instance, the passion of the intended audience helped advance the design.

The balance of responsibility and creation, however, is not easily discerned. The point at which nostalgia-driven fan expectations eclipse artistic possibilities can be frustrating both to creators and to less outspoken members of the fandom. Gaider acknowledges that developers need to take stock of a lot more than they used to but pushes back against the idea of letting fan entitlement drive the creative process, "We have to do our due diligence as creators. That is an added responsibility which didn't used to exist as a creator but now is there. There is a due diligence we need to go through, but we still need to claim that part of the creative process which is ours. You can't let fans co-opt the entire creative process no matter what their agenda is."

 

[aweigh]

"Toxic fandom" is one of the best things the media shills have been able to spin in recent years, they can use it to defend all sorts of degeneracy and mediocrity.

Combine toxic fans + "old stuff is old and outdated, if you want old stuff then you are toxic" = a license to never have to do a good job for the rest of your life, and instead release degenerate shovelware that's immune to criticism.

EDIT: Also obligatory:

Posting in dead game thread!

 

[Cross]

Rogers and inXile had a daunting task in designing The Bard's Tale IV. The game needed enough nostalgic flavor and familiar gameplay elements to appeal to those fans who fondly recall the original while also incorporating modern game design innovations. Rogers' solution included imagining what The Bard's Tale would be like if it had been coming out every couple of years like a long-running IP. "We're kind of thinking of this as The Bard's Tale Fourteen," he says. This approach provided creative agency to the design team, allowing them to excise outdated gameplay mechanics. What it didn't do, however, is solve for fan expectations.

While nostalgia fuels a reboot, it has a pronounced downside: It can empower toxic factions of fandoms.

Ah, the age-old 'our audience doesn't understand our unique creative vision' tactic. Because that has totally worked out for indie developers in the past who you'd think can't afford to alienate what little audience they have.

Then again, I don't think it's possible for BT4 sales to drop any lower.

The best ever artistic rendition of the notorious AD&D spell Bigby's Fiery Pimp Slap.

Not even close (minus the fiery part):

 

[aweigh]

BTW, thanks for posting that interview. I now have zero sympathy left for inXile for participating in that kind of "interview".

Fuck them. Let the game burn.

 

[Infinitron]

Wtf does Gaider even have to do this with this? It's like the author saw the negative reviews on Steam and shot off some emails to random people for a quote. Did Rogers even know his name was going to appear in an article about "toxic fanbase"?

 

[Jezal_k23]

I thought TTON was bad, but it looks like a resounding success now in comparison to this. BT4 is absolutely, completely dead. It's so dead it's probably not even worth making cosmetic DLC for it like they did for TTON.

 

[theSavant]

It's really like they wanted to satisfy everyone and ended up satisfying no one.

Like the cook putting in ingredients from all his favorite meals, and thereby creating an inedible meal. "I like cake and meat"...*puts vanillesugar in meatsauce*. Why don't you like my meal?

 

[Don Peste]

*puts vanillesugar in meatsauce*

You don't like American BBQ sauce?

 

[newtmonkey]

It's too bad this ended up being such a disaster. I'm 18 hours in now and loving it overall, though I personally wish it had a higher combat/exploration vs puzzle ratio (i.e. less puzzles). The puzzles aren't bad at all, and there is some fun to be had with them, but 3-4 identical puzzles in a row with just variations is annoying... and it seems like every time you hit a puzzle you are gonna get at least a couple more right after it.

 

[CryptRat]

Looks like I'll like this game, I don't think I'll regret backing it although I'll probably not own a pc able to run it before 2025.

 

[ProphetSword]

Don’t worry, guys. Maybe they’ll get it right with Bard’s Tale V: Puzzle Harder.

 

[Ulrox]

The only point in which I got somewhat frustrated with puzzles was in the wizards tower. There's quite a few where my ability to reason them out just wasn't there - but once you start to get into the rythm of puzzling, it's quite an enjoyable experience. I've seen a lot be frustrated with fairy puzzles, they don't seem all that annoying to me. What is annoying to me is that my graphics card isn't all that good, and I have to put the graphics on ultra to see some of the words or images in the puzzles. Either effects or textures have to be on ultra. For the fairy puzzles. Whenever I run into one, I have to change my texture options. I feel like the developers of this game didn't bother to play it on low graphics, simply because the experience is quite horrible, and it is.

It's too bad this ended up being such a disaster. I'm 18 hours in now and loving it overall, though I personally wish it had a higher combat/exploration vs puzzle ratio (i.e. less puzzles). The puzzles aren't bad at all, and there is some fun to be had with them, but 3-4 identical puzzles in a row with just variations is annoying... and it seems like every time you hit a puzzle you are gonna get at least a couple more right after it.

One part of me thinks it's sad, another part of me thinks fargo and co deserve it. Nomatter how amazing the game is, there's some facts that point to a very mismanaged project to me. I believe that they shot their scope of the game well over the moon, and instead of realising the mistake they'd made, they doubled down, and the result was unoptimised mess of a game that we got. A very good game, but very buggy and laggy. I can't get mad at gamers, because it very much looks like a bait and switch on kickstarter.

 

[newtmonkey]

I read on the Steam forums that they plan to update the puzzle object textures to be legible on lower settings, but I don't have a link to share unfortunately.

 

[Gord]

It's really like they wanted to satisfy everyone and ended up satisfying no one.

Actually no. Many people who play the game longer than 20min end up liking it, apparently.
The game is not bad unless you specifically want something like Grimoire with better production values or a 100% faithful reproduction of BT1-3.
There's not that much of "trying to please everyone", however. There are no romances, afaik, for instance.

They did, however, screw up the launch royally. Releasing a game in that buggy and unoptimized state was practically begging for a review bombing.
For that they have no one else but themselves to blame.
The genre being pretty niche is the cherry on top.

 

[Ulrox]

Did someone link this article already? Rogers... BT4... Gaider and 'toxic fans'.

https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/bards...lgia-gaming-toxic-fandom-inxile-entertainment

Interesting article. From a political perspective, I think it's the very worst kind of thing you could put out there if you're InXile. InXile was funded by nostalgia - given money from people who legitimately cared greatly about certain IP's. To me, this article is 100% the same as 'biting the hand that feeds you' People who feel betrayed by them will just have an even greater excuse to feel betrayed, regardless of whether or not the article has any legitimacy.

It seems also to me, to be pointing fingers at the fans, rather than awknowledge the issues with their launch.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

That article doesn't really blame fans that much though, it just points out how the whole dynamic of fan-dev interaction is weird. Every single Kickstarter project funded on nostalgia had the exact same thing happen. Game gets funded, everybody celebrates, but the next day the community instantly splits in half. One half wants a faithful reproduction of the classic game, the other half wants it modernized. Then the game comes out, and the first half complains there is no evolution, while the other half complains about consolization and peddling to casuals.

I forgot which Kickstarter for point&click sequel had drama about hotspot highlighting, but it was a classic example. Half the fanbase was against it, saying it's mass market dumbing down, the other half said it's retarded to have pixel hunting in a modern game. And they're both right, so what does a dev do, flip a coin?

 

[Grampy_Bone]

And they're both right, so what does a dev do, flip a coin?

Stop using Kickstarter. It's cancer.

 

[Ravn7]

And they're both right, so what does a dev do, flip a coin?

Make it optional. Like in Odyssey or RDR2. Many optional features.

 

[V_K]

I read on the Steam forums that they plan to update the puzzle object textures to be legible on lower settings, but I don't have a link to share unfortunately.

Another 50gb patch incoming.

 

[FeelTheRads]

That article doesn't really blame fans that much though, it just points out how the whole dynamic of fan-dev interaction is weird. Every single Kickstarter project funded on nostalgia had the exact same thing happen. Game gets funded, everybody celebrates, but the next day the community instantly splits in half. One half wants a faithful reproduction of the classic game, the other half wants it modernized. Then the game comes out, and the first half complains there is no evolution, while the other half complains about consolization and peddling to casuals.

I forgot which Kickstarter for point&click sequel had drama about hotspot highlighting, but it was a classic example. Half the fanbase was against it, saying it's mass market dumbing down, the other half said it's retarded to have pixel hunting in a modern game. And they're both right, so what does a dev do, flip a coin?

How about deciding what you want to do, make it clear and actually stick to it?
No more "Old school but updated for the modern audience! We're going to please everybody!" retardation which inevitably ends into "OH GOD WHY NOBODY BUYS IT MUST BE THEM DAMN PIRATES"

Difficult, I know, chasing unicorns is a much easier thing to do.

 

[aweigh]

And they're both right, so what does a dev do, flip a coin?

Make a good game.