Eternity PoE II: Deadfire Sales Analysis Thread

[2house2fly]

Itemization in Pillars 2 is better in that unique items get their own little upgrade paths, but the lack of soulbounds is a big negative for me too. There are a decent amount in the DLC and they're pretty interesting, but the DLC is late-game (you can't even start SSS until after Ashen Maw) so it lacks the same feeling of gradually powering them up

 

[Roguey]

Not allegedly. It's the biggest improvement in the sequel.

They added multiclassing, subclasses, more abilities to every class, better itemization, and 12 new skills.

I was about to hit agree and then you went full fanboy. Better itemization? Pillars 1 has like a million items and a good deal of those are Soulbound items. Pillars 2 certainly feels like a step back in itemization.

Don’t get me wrong, there are fucking fantastic items there and the people who dog on Pillars in general for itemization are insane, it’s just that pillars with WM is even better

Roxor loved Deadfire's itemization at least up until the point where Sawyer nerfed literally everything by half because of his autism. He didn't bother with White March though.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Far as I'm concerned, soulbound items shouldn't even exist in Deadfire. It was a cool concept in PoE1, but it breaks down completely in a game with non-linear structure.

PoE1 is almost completely on rails, so when you find a soulbbound you can make a sensible, calculated decision if it is worth spending some time using a shitty weapon until it gets upgraded, and it's fun enjoying new powerups.

In Deadfire though, it is completely unpredictable. Maybe you'll find them 3 hours in, maybe you'll find them 50 hours in. Fun turns into frustration about whether you should bother unlocking something or not. Especially since there's far less trash mobs so it ain't so easy to just go and grind a few upgrades. Personally I was just incredibly annoyed every time I found one, because I had no idea what to do with it.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Far as I'm concerned, soulbound items shouldn't even exist in Deadfire. It was a cool concept in PoE1, but it breaks down completely in a game with non-linear structure.

PoE1 is almost completely on rails, so when you find a soulbbound you can make a sensible, calculated decision if it is worth spending some time using a shitty weapon until it gets upgraded, and it's fun enjoying new powerups.

In Deadfire though, it is completely unpredictable. Maybe you'll find them 3 hours in, maybe you'll find them 50 hours in. Fun turns into frustration about whether you should bother unlocking something or not. Especially since there's far less trash mobs so it ain't so easy to just go and grind a few upgrades. Personally I was just incredibly annoyed every time I found one, because I had no idea what to do with it.

But the Soulbound stuff is in the White March, which you can do pretty early or pretty late. It should have the same problem.

 

[Roguey]

Dunno how it works in Deadfire but the PoE soulbound grind conditions had that OR attached them to ensure that there'd be some way to unlock them to their full potential.

 

[Parabalus]

Are there any soulbounds in SSS? There are 2 or 3 in Beast of Winter, all great.

 

[Grape_You_In_the_Mouth]

The comments here are absolutely disgusting. I hope you're at least pretty on the outside.

The rapture for negativity is unreal and a goal unto itself by you people, because there are so many positions that are so obviously wrong, the only reason to have them is to enjoy that bitter taste of superior hatred. It's disgusting and absolutely pathetic.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Far as I'm concerned, soulbound items shouldn't even exist in Deadfire. It was a cool concept in PoE1, but it breaks down completely in a game with non-linear structure.

PoE1 is almost completely on rails, so when you find a soulbbound you can make a sensible, calculated decision if it is worth spending some time using a shitty weapon until it gets upgraded, and it's fun enjoying new powerups.

In Deadfire though, it is completely unpredictable. Maybe you'll find them 3 hours in, maybe you'll find them 50 hours in. Fun turns into frustration about whether you should bother unlocking something or not. Especially since there's far less trash mobs so it ain't so easy to just go and grind a few upgrades. Personally I was just incredibly annoyed every time I found one, because I had no idea what to do with it.

But the Soulbound stuff is in the White March, which you can do pretty early or pretty late. It should have the same problem.

White March doesn't have that problem at all, even if you cleared out everything else. It's mostly on rails so when you pick up a soulbound there's always gonna be enough content ahead of you to unlock it. But on first run of Deadfire, you just don't know. Obviously on subsequent runs you can just look it up and so on.

And don't get me started about soulbound items in the DLCs. At that point you're stacked with legendary gear, you only have endgame content left to complete, and they give you a soulbound item with stats that aren't good enough for level 5 party, and you're supposed to gimp yourself for unpredictable amont of time while fighting all the toughest encounters, hoping it will eventually unlock into something good. It's retarded.

 

[AwesomeButton]

The comments here are absolutely disgusting. I hope you're at least pretty on the outside.

The rapture for negativity is unreal and a goal unto itself by you people, because there are so many positions that are so obviously wrong, the only reason to have them is to enjoy that bitter taste of superior hatred. It's disgusting and absolutely pathetic.

The edge must flow. It's their holiday.

 

[2house2fly]

Are there any soulbounds in SSS? There are 2 or 3 in Beast of Winter, all great.

there's a soulbound light armour and three mutually exclusive ones: a rapier, battle axe, and helmet. I'm not a big fan of the tribal look so I'm not into the helmet and armour, but the weapons are cool. I also don't like them being mutually exclusive, luckily that's easy to mod out. There's going to be one more in the next DLC it looks like- unless it's cut content. A greatsword called "Burden". Greatswords are already overrepresented so I'm not a fan of having a soulbound one, but I think they had an unused model they wanted to bring back

 

[Grunker]

The comments here are absolutely disgusting. I hope you're at least pretty on the outside.

The rapture for negativity is unreal and a goal unto itself by you people, because there are so many positions that are so obviously wrong, the only reason to have them is to enjoy that bitter taste of superior hatred. It's disgusting and absolutely pathetic.

Welcome to the Codex. Enjoy your stay.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

The comments here are absolutely disgusting. I hope you're at least pretty on the outside.

The rapture for negativity is unreal and a goal unto itself by you people, because there are so many positions that are so obviously wrong, the only reason to have them is to enjoy that bitter taste of superior hatred. It's disgusting and absolutely pathetic.

The edge must flow. It's their holiday.

I’ve often defended POE and Deadfire (and I will still go to the mattresses for Tyranny anytime), but having played Kingmaker it’s much harder to make excuses for the Eternity franchises’ shortcomings. Sawyer putting in a ton of work to design a ruleset that’s inferior to the 3.5 OGL used to seem forgivable, now it feels unconscionable. The worldbuilding is deliberately mundane—something I would be fine with under other circumstances as I like Darklands, too—but it undermines the fundamentally epic nature of the main story in both games. While POE and Deadfire do have some good content, they’re not super cohesive and they both lack a sense of urgency. They don’t do a great job of making the player feel invested in the story or the world.

I say this as someone who liked the writing style in POE even if it needed an editor. I was happy to explore the Dyrwood for the simple purpose of clearing the fog of war off all the maps. I was fine being a tourist in the Deadfire. However, Kingmaker has better systems, better combat, and it does a much better job of making you feel invested in the plot and the world. The difference between a CRPG based on years of pen and paper sessions and one that’s created out of whole cloth is fucking stark.

If Owlcat can produce something so great on their first try, it’s extra disappointing that Obsidian—a studio I love—somehow dropped the ball not once, but twice.

 

[Roguey]

If Owlcat can produce something so great on their first try, it’s extra disappointing that Obsidian—a studio I love—somehow dropped the ball not once, but twice.

Obsidian's adventures in the Forgotten Realms and the 3.5 ruleset gave us NWN2 and Storm of Zehir, so that ball was dropped more than twice.

 

[santino27]

If Owlcat can produce something so great on their first try, it’s extra disappointing that Obsidian—a studio I love—somehow dropped the ball not once, but twice.

The twice part is what kills me. It really felt like they recognized some of the problems with the first game, but instead of just fixing them and improving for the sequel, they decided to monkey with everything again, which meant we ended up with a game that was in many ways a lateral step from its predecessor; some things were better and others that were good in the first had been reimagined into sucking in the second.

I thought the second was vastly superior to the first on the technical (art/graphics/ai) side, but mechanics and story were a different thing entirely. That's on JES and Patel.

 

[J_C]

If Owlcat can produce something so great on their first try, it’s extra disappointing that Obsidian—a studio I love—somehow dropped the ball not once, but twice.

The twice part is what kills me. It really felt like they recognized some of the problems with the first game, but instead of just fixing them and improving for the sequel, they decided to monkey with everything again

Same here. When POE first came out, I said to myself: "alright, this is pretty good, but ohboy, the second game will be this franchise's BG2. They built up the base game, and now they will improve everything."

Instead, they literally reinvented the wheel with everything, except the graphics. Ship combat, open world type gameplay, 5 person party, less emphasis on the main story etc. I still don't understand how could this happen.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

If Owlcat can produce something so great on their first try, it’s extra disappointing that Obsidian—a studio I love—somehow dropped the ball not once, but twice.

Obsidian's adventures in the Forgotten Realms and the 3.5 ruleset gave us NWN2 and Storm of Zehir, so that ball was dropped more than twice.

Sawyer came in late on NWN2, though, didn’t he? Combat was weak in NWN2, but I was a lot more invested in its convoluted mess of a story than in POE or Deadfire. Plus, it’s not like they set out to make a spiritual successor to some of the best RPGs ever made, they set out to make a sequel to what was arguably OG BioWare’s worst game..

Besides, even if NWN2 existed for no other purpose than to get us to Mask of the Betrayer, it was more than worth it.

Austin is one of, if not the most, liberal places in texas. Stick to Bulgarian geography, dude. :D

Eh, I wouldn't call it most. While Austin is split between two congressional districts, both went majority-Republican by about 5 points.

Austin is the most like an east coast college town. The parts of Texas that send Democrats to Congress tend to be very black or Latino. They elect old fashioned tax and spend liberals. Austin is more of a social justice city. Everyone I know who goes to the music festival is stunned by how cosmopolitan the place is.

 

[Roguey]

Sawyer came in late on NWN2, though, didn’t he? Combat was weak in NWN2, but I was a lot more invested in its convoluted mess of a story than in POE or Deadfire.

Plus, it’s not like they set out to make a spiritual successor to some of the best RPGs ever made, they set out to make a sequel to what was arguably OG BioWare’s worst game..

Almost ten years ago, I worked with Ray Muzyka, Greg Zeschuk, and Trent Oster, all of BioWare, on creating the concept for the original Neverwinter Nights. It was exciting to envision a game that would be different from Baldur's Gate, which BioWare was working on at the time, and Planescape: Torment, which I and quite a few members from Obsidian were developing. What we really wanted to do was bring the playing and crafting of D&D adventures to the computer. In the end, BioWare did an amazing job with the original Neverwinter Nights as can be seen from the accolades and the long standing, and still thriving, community.

In early 2004, Obsidian received the exciting honor of creating Neverwinter Nights. We eagerly sat down to figure out what would make the best sequel to one of the most acclaimed RPGs. We realized the need to keep the sequel as true to the original product as possible, so we built upon the accomplishments of Neverwinter Nights to give you even more of what you love.

Through the development work done by Obsidian and the great support of Atari, Hasbro, and Wizards of the Coast, what you have in your hands is a game made in the spirit of the original Neverwinter and the beloved Dungeons & Dragons tradition. It has an incredible campaign crafted by some of the best designers in the game industry. And, of course, we continue the tradition of a modder's paradise of a toolset. Add in the rich community at www.nwn2.com and nwvault.ign.com, and you have the greatest computer roleplaying experience yet. We can't wait to see what you think of the game and to play the incredible modules the community-you-will create.

Have fun and don't be strangers,

Feargus Urquhart

I’d put Austin as the most liberal major city in Texas.

And here I was thinking that the most liberal cities were the ones that actually elected democrats. You're arguing anecdotes and personal observation, I'm arguing statistics.

 

[AwesomeButton]

I’ve often defended POE and Deadfire (and I will still go to the mattresses for Tyranny anytime), but having played Kingmaker it’s much harder to make excuses for the Eternity franchises’ shortcomings. Sawyer putting in a ton of work to design a ruleset that’s inferior to the 3.5 OGL used to seem forgivable, now it feels unconscionable. The worldbuilding is deliberately mundane—something I would be fine with under other circumstances as I like Darklands, too—but it undermines the fundamentally epic nature of the main story in both games. While POE and Deadfire do have some good content, they’re not super cohesive and they both lack a sense of urgency. They don’t do a great job of making the player feel invested in the story or the world.

I say this as someone who liked the writing style in POE even if it needed an editor. I was happy to explore the Dyrwood for the simple purpose of clearing the fog of war off all the maps. I was fine being a tourist in the Deadfire. However, Kingmaker has better systems, better combat, and it does a much better job of making you feel invested in the plot and the world. The difference between a CRPG based on years of pen and paper sessions and one that’s created out of whole cloth is fucking stark.

If Owlcat can produce something so great on their first try, it’s extra disappointing that Obsidian—a studio I love—somehow dropped the ball not once, but twice.

Yeah, after years of being on a pedestal, the old legend Obsidian turned out more clueless about what made the Infinity Engine games good than anyone would have thought. Clueless enough for it to be surprising even to themselves.

I think Deadfire is indeed a good game, if you discount all the written text and concentrate on the character builds, combat, and whatever else is left. As Sensuki said, those are the game's strong points.

I'll go even further. Remember Vesemir's funeral scene in Witcher 3? For all the praise they are getting, no one of the "RPG legends" of Black Isle or Obsidian has or ever will write such a strong scene, or characters of which you will be so fond as to make the scene matter for you when you watch it. CDPR however were capable of writing both the characters and the scene.

 

[Quillon]

I'll go even further. Remember Vesemir's funeral scene in Witcher 3? For all the praise they are getting, no one of the "RPG legends" of Black Isle or Obsidian has or ever will write a such a strong scene, or characters of which you will be so fond as to make the scene matter for you when you watch it. CDPR however were capable of writing both the characters and the scene.

You can't compare shit from a linear-cinematic scene, especially with PoEs.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

CDPR however were capable of writing both the characters and the scene.

Characters are from the books though.

 

[AwesomeButton]

You can't compare shit from a linear-cinematic scene, especially with PoEs.

Why not? Because an isometric game is inherently at a disadvantage when portraying dramatic scenes and using a serious tone in its writing or when it has to develop complex nuanced characters? I already made this point and a number of people told me this wasn't so.

Characters are from the books though.

I haven't read the books, and the scene felt quite strong enough to me. Also, didn't CDPR develop some of the characters as much if not more than the author ever did?

 

[Quillon]

Why not? Because an isometric game is inherently at a disadvantage when portraying dramatic scenes and using a serious tone in its writing or when it has to develop complex nuanced characters?

Yes.

I already made this point and a number of people told me this wasn't so.

So they made you change your mind?


No cinematic scenes + no pre-defined protag certainly puts PoE at a disadvantage in story-telling.

 

[Mustawd]

No cinematic scenes + no pre-defined protag certainly puts PoE at a disadvantage in story-telling.

Lol what is this nonsense?

For actual storytelling, books remain much better and much more immersive than games. And there is no camera angles or cutscenes.

Good story telling is good story telling. C’mon now.

 

[Quillon]

No cinematic scenes + no pre-defined protag certainly puts PoE at a disadvantage in story-telling.

Lol what is this nonsense?

For actual storytelling, books remain much better and much more immersive than games. And there is no camera angles or cutscenes.

Good story telling is good story telling. C’mon now.

Yeah but we're not reading a book and books don't have multiple versions of themselves for what its protag can be(nor different paths if its not a CYOA book).

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

CDPR however were capable of writing both the characters and the scene.

Characters are from the books though.

There are so many good books to steal from! We shouldn’t grade original video game content on a curve, especially not compared to games based on second or third rate genre fiction. The Witcher books ain’t War and Peace. If Obsidian can no longer create their own compelling characters they should copy them from fiction and change the names. Some of them even know this! The Voices of Nerat in Tyranny is a better antagonist than anything in POE or Deadfire and he’s just a reskinned Glen Cook character.

How hard is it to find a talented but not incredibly popular SF/F author who’ll sell you the digital rights to their work for a song? Who cares if an RPG is derivative as long as it’s derivative of something good?