Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Gothic Gothic remake from THQ Nordic

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
14,793
Location
Frostfell
You should check this guy raging about arcania



I believe that the user score on GoG is a good indication of game overall quality. Gothic 3 has a decent ratting but not as G2/1. When i read "Arcania and Gothic 3 are complete shit" i got triggered not because you din't liked G3, just because i understood that for you, arcania and g3 are "equally shit"(honestly, if i had played G3 on melee without community path, i would hate it too. The melee combat without alternative AI is who stunlocks first and without consequences mod, you can learn the highest secret of fire/water and dark mages in a single mage, can fight for beliar on Paladin's armor, etc).

iu

But ArcaniA devs are making Gothic remake with the same mindset of ArcaniA devs





What i mean by the same mindset?

  • Focus on "accessibility"
  • Focus on console
  • Heroic starting
  • Slow and everyone takes minutes to die combat
  • Linearity
  • Handholding
  • (...)
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
14,793
Location
Frostfell


Is a length review but shows almost everything wrong with the teaser.

What a decline. Especially considering that Gothic 3 is a unsalvable piece of shit.

Not true. Mods can solve the great majority of G3 problems.
Melee Combat is who stunlocks first? Alternative AI fixes it
Spells like Fire Rain who was end game spell on previous games(circle 5 on G1 and circle 6 on G2) being available before mid game? Alternative balancing fixes it.
Nuking spells like hailstorm costing little mana? AB fixes it.
Lack of consequences? Consequences mod fixes it.
Fetch quest? Content mod and questpack fixes it.
(...)

ArcaniA is like Diablo 3. No mod, no update, no DLC can save it. Because the core of ArcaniA is flawed. And gothic teaser, if they don't revert the awful changes, will be awful too.

Also trying to bring the discussion away from the decline that is G3

Just compare G3 with other games of his time. Like Oblivion. I agree that G3 in many aspects is inferior to previous Gothic games(and superior in others like freedom), but people here seems to be more tolerant of Oblivion than Gothic 3 and i don't understand why.

This teaser in other hands, is inferior to G1(or even G3) in any aspect.
Inferior in immersion
Inferior in atmosphere
Inferior in combat
Inferior in quest design
Inferior in level design
Inferior in freedom
Inferior in UI
(...)

I will not be surprised if they implement cooldowns on rune magic like ArcaniA did or even on crossbows and make your char attributes 100% tied to his gear. This game has much more in common with ArcaniA than with any gothic game.

--------------------------

After ArcaniA, SCL and other games failing, i don't know why THQ nordic can't understand that we don't wanna this generic railroaded handholding experience. We wanna a gothic experience
 

Tito Anic

Arcane
Shitposter
Joined
Dec 27, 2015
Messages
1,679
Location
Magalan
LoL, you dumbfucks, care about reviews? Almost all reviewers are retards who do not know shit. Form your own opinion and do not regurgitate:obviously:

+ I allready saw choices(sword mission)
+ Snapers are downgraded to scavenger(Bloodwyn explains)
+ Wolf still kicks your ass(luring)
+ Main story vibe, char is the same( mr snarky nobody struggling in the darwinian fantasy world)
+ Art direction respects original

Demo:incline:

p.s. Everyone who thinks otherwise is wrong and will be sent to Tesco Christmas card factory!
 
Last edited:

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
14,793
Location
Frostfell
A lot of people say that THQ Nordic should hire PB to make this game but PB is making another game and many PB employees now are newer employees, not the same as 00s employees.

IMO PB should hire Gothic modding teams to make this gothic remake.

Imagine picking the guys who made :
Golden Mod + Dark Mysteries modders
Returning 2.0
Community path, consequences, etc for G3

Would be a massive incline. That way, G1 remake will have GOOD changes ie - option to become water mage BEFORE the chap 4(with a lore friendly reason), option to become a Guru, more consequences, more bug fixes but not the modern BS aka bullet sponge enemies, console focused UI, handholding, etc
 

Tito Anic

Arcane
Shitposter
Joined
Dec 27, 2015
Messages
1,679
Location
Magalan
Jedi Master Radek

Jedis are gay, Starwars are gayest of them all.

A lot of people say that THQ Nordic should hire PB to make this game but PB is making another game and many PB employees now are newer employees, not the same as 00s employees.

IMO PB should hire Gothic modding teams to make this gothic remake.

Imagine picking the guys who made :
Golden Mod + Dark Mysteries modders
Returning 2.0
Community path, consequences, etc for G3

Would be a massive incline. That way, G1 remake will have GOOD changes ie - option to become water mage BEFORE the chap 4(with a lore friendly reason), option to become a Guru, more consequences, more bug fixes but not the modern BS aka bullet sponge enemies, console focused UI, handholding, etc

I have very low opinion about quality of mods in general, but i salute creativity. There is only one mod which i could recommend to anyone - it is "Nameless Mod" for DX.


p.s. Lord of Riva i will find your family, Bethestard.





 
Last edited:

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
14,793
Location
Frostfell
I have very low opinion about quality of mods in general, but i salute creativity. There is only one mod which i could recommend to anyone - it is "Nameless Mod" for DX.

I will check BUT mods improved a lot my gameplay experience on Gothic.

On G1, i got disappointed that i could't become a Swamp Camp Guru, only a Templar. Golden Mod fixed the problem. And on G3, consequences + alternative balancing greatly improved my experience as a magician. AB increases the cost of getting the highest perk of water/fire/dark mages, from 5 LP to 30 LP. Consequences, make you be forced to choose one. You can still cast lightning bolt or fireball vs ice golems if you are a water mage, but you will not be good on it as a dedicated dark/fire mage with the highest perk. Without this mods, becomes too easy. For example, Rain of Fire, a Circle 5/6 spell on both previous Gothics, can be obtained pretty early on. And due the low mana cost and mana regen, i could free cities just by pressing a button once few secs and letting enemies walk into their incinerator. Any intelligent enemy should run from the rain of fire and once has distance, fire bow/crossbow at the mage casting the spell but no, i cleared many cities in few minutes with it... With mods, i let the liberation of cities to end game(except Trelis)

On Gothic 2, Returning(unfortunately din't worked on my pc) brings the option to be a water mage and a Xardas apprentice(necromancer). In my order of preference : Water mages > Dark mages > Fire mages.

--------------------------------

This modders IMO did a much better job on bringing new things to Gothic franchise than the devs of this teasers. If i had more than 300 hours only on G3 and more than 100 on G1 despite G1 being short is due modders.
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
14,793
Location
Frostfell
One thing that makes me rage is. Console games who receive remake/remaster get a similar experience to the base game. See Crash remake vs original and even Resident Evil. Hell, even rumors of Demon Souls that make me wanna a P$5. Why PC players only get a awful Gothic remake that put ALL ARCANIA BULLSHIT and all modern BS???? After ArcaniA din't the devs learned the lesson?

Nobody wanna Dialog Wheel, Sponge 5 minutes to kill a wolf combat, immersion breaking questmarkers, dissociation of inventory and the world, no animation/time to drink potions, dialog whee limiting how much dialog they can showl, and according to a reddit user who claims to be able to access magic whith cheat engine, will be cooldowns on the rune magic. Why? HOW many arcania clones we need before a proper gothic game????

edit : HE is claiming that a STORM of fire isn't killing a snapper.
 
Last edited:

typical user

Arbiter
Joined
Nov 30, 2015
Messages
957
Why can't they just copy Soulsborne combat? Just don't make it as retarded as ELEX with stunlocking and stiff animations and they have a solid game.
 

pOcHa

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 12, 2015
Messages
2,893
Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
agree, but for honor combat is just fine, in for honor - here most advanced techniques are completely missing, and opponent mechanics are very very very easy, but with health/dmg like on very very very hard
 

Cat Dude

Savant
Joined
Nov 5, 2018
Messages
498
Why can't they just copy Soulsborne combat? Just don't make it as retarded as ELEX with stunlocking and stiff animations and they have a solid game.

The combat would be even better with more parrying like Sekiro than dodging or rolling in Soulsborne.
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
14,793
Location
Frostfell
The combat would be even better with more parrying like Sekiro than dodging or rolling in Soulsborne.

Sekiro parrying is AWFUL. You can parry a 5m tall Ogre with a poleaxe using just a katana. At least on Dark Souls, the stability was something to take into account and not everything is "pairable".

IMO this """genial""" idea of copying for honor combat is the worst in the remake. Why?

  • On Gothic face many enemies is common
  • On Gothic face non humanoid enemies(beasts and wolves) too
  • Ranged combat is a VITAL part when you are outnumbered. See a pack of wolves? Try kill some of then with a bow at range, don't try kill then with a sword because they will "circle" and kill you pretty quickly(unless you have the a top tier armor that can absorb all damage that they can deal). On For Honor, ranged combat barely doesn't exist.
  • And spells? Spells on G1 require a long "charging time", Storm of Fire can dealt 500 fire damage BUT what balanced the spell is the charging time. It will simple not work with the current combat.
  • On Original Gothic you kill and die FAST, on this game, you takes a eternity to kill a trash mob. Hell, considering that a wolf takes 3 minutes to die, imagine facing an army of orcs like you can face on orc territory at end game. Or worst. A skeleton mage that will summon skeletons faster than you can kill skeletons.
IMO they should't do a "re imagining" and putting modern BS and arcania BS into it. They should remaster the game, improve the graphics a little, a optional more noob friendly control and maybe more options that the original game din't had. For eg, a option to become a Guru or a Water Mage before the chapter 4. A option to become some type of "elite mercenary" on new camp, those who doesn't like the changes can not play with new paths. Maybe also new weapons, as longs a new axe is not better than a old axe. Just different.

TL;DR - They decided to go for "for honor combat" because "hur dur is directional like G1 but more popular" and ignored that Gothic is a completely different game with far more focus on immersion, where ranged combat and multiple enemies needs to be taken into account.

------------------------------------

Is kinda off topic. But i HATED sekiro(din't purchased). Why? The game forces me to play 24/7 with only the most overrated useless VS large beasts/useless VS armor weapon(Katana) while you face enemies using all types of cool weaponry. Firearms, polearms, etc.

And sekiro also downgraded the combat from Dark Souls. On DS2, if i hit the enemy with the heaviest part of a warhammer, it will deal more damage, same with swords and even magical swords like MLGS. A Scythe depending the distance, can even ignore shields. That is so amazing. Weapons also bounce when they hit walls. Sekiro doesn't have this attention to details.

If they wanna copy a combat, they should copy the Dark Souls combat. Who was designed with multiple enemies, PvE/PvP, ranged combat and non humanoid enemies in mind.
 
Last edited:

DJOGamer PT

Arcane
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
7,514
Location
Lusitânia
Sekiro parrying is AWFUL. You can parry a 5m tall Ogre with a poleaxe using just a katana.

You realize Sekiro isn't suposed to be "grounded"?

On Gothic face many enemies is common

It's still pretty doable to figth multiple enemies in For Honor, provided the player is good.
In fact it makes a nice way for players to learn the dangers of figthing multiple enemies - unless they have nice equipement and/or a good degree of skill.
They just need to implement a "change target" button.

Ranged combat is a VITAL part ... On For Honor, ranged combat barely doesn't exist.

This isn't a problem at all. Just make a different system for ranged combat.

On Original Gothic you kill and die FAST, on this game, you takes a eternity to kill a trash mob

That's just a problem with the damage and hp values. It's interly separate from the system, mechanically speaking.
 

Sinatar

Arbiter
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
569
For Honor's combat system was designed for a human weilding a weapon to fight another weapon wielding human. The whole system is predicated on blocking and countering attacks from different directions and reading where and when to strike. It makes absolutely 0 sense to use this combat system in a game where you're fighting unarmed monsters and animals who can't defend themselves and as such can be attacked from any direction.

It just goes to show how little thought went into every decision they made in this trash.
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
14,793
Location
Frostfell
It's still pretty doable to figth multiple enemies in For Honor, provided the player is good.

Is doable but not immersive. Wolves should attack you as a pack but in the game, only one attack you. For honor combat is not doable if mobs has a aggressive AI.

This isn't a problem at all. Just make a different system for ranged combat.

Fighting already felt like a mini game, instead of a part of the world(like the original gothic), do you wanna another mini game?

That's just a problem with the damage and hp values. It's interly separate from the system, mechanically speaking.

Not when with the old system, i can hit enemies 5 times in few seconds and with this system, i need dozens of times more time. Sure, the fact that the player can survive multiple hits from a Snapper is also awful BUT...

For Honor's combat system was designed for a human weilding a weapon to fight another weapon wielding human. The whole system is predicated on blocking and countering attacks from different directions and reading where and when to strike. It makes absolutely 0 sense to use this combat system in a game where you're fighting unarmed monsters and animals who can't defend themselves and as such can be attacked from any direction.

It just goes to show how little thought went into every decision they made in this trash.

I really wish that they are using the teaser to show the WORST ideas that they had...

---------------------------------------------------

They should pick all changes made in relation to the original Gothic and asks people to "vote" if they liked or disliked the changes.

  • Dialog wheel
  • Drinking potion being more like teleporting the potion to your belly
  • Heroic cutscenes
  • Check point system / No longer manual saving
  • For Honor combat
  • UI changes
  • Taking too long to die
  • Taking too long to kill
  • Post processing effects
  • Quest markers
  • Armor design
  • (...)

Because i honestly hated all changes.

Dialog wheel was made with controllers in mind and severely limits how much words and options can be chosen and is awful with a keyboard

Drinking potion having no time to drink the potion. It kills the immersion and trivializes every fight. You cannot lose if you have enough healing items.

Heroic cutscenes kills the atmosphere of the game

The check point system also takes out the player control over his character and narrative.

For honor combat is awful. If they wanna copy a combat, they should copy the Dark Souls combat. Who was designed with multiple enemies, PvE/PvP, ranged combat and non humanoid enemies in mind.

UI changes - Did anyone tested this UI with a mouse and keyboard?

Taking too long to die - It again is unimmersive and you die quickly in every gothic game except ArcaniA who is the black sheep of the gothic games.

Taking too long to kill - unimmersive and will make Orc Town and Sleeper Temple unplayable. You kill and die fast in every gothic game except arcania

Post processing effects - Nobody deserves motion blur and screen shaking. IS literally the most hated visual effects by gamers and hurts the accessibility of the game for those who have motion sickness(not my case)

Quest Markers - Remove this abomination.

Armor design - The new armor design looks more like WoW or a Carnival suit instead of a actual armor.


---------------------------


IMO it should't be a "re imagining" and putting modern mechanics and arcania stuff into it. They should remaster the game, improve the graphics a little, a optional more noob friendly control and maybe(i repeat maybe) more options that the original game din't had. For eg, a option to become a Guru or a Water Mage before the chapter 4. A option to become some type of "elite mercenary" on new camp, those who doesn't like the changes can not play with new paths. Maybe also new weapons, as longs a new axe is not better than a old axe. Just different.

Or maybe release the "re imagining" into console market and let the PC market with a remaster that only improves the graphics.
 
Last edited:

GhostCow

Balanced Gamer
Patron
Joined
Jan 2, 2020
Messages
3,995
Dialog wheel was made with controllers in mind and severely limits how much words and options can be chosen and is awful with a keyboard

This probably is the reasoning for the advent of dialog wheels but it doesn't make any damn sense to me. How hard would it be to use the original dialog menu and just scroll through the options with the dpad?
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
14,793
Location
Frostfell
This probably is the reasoning for the advent of dialog wheels but it doesn't make any damn sense to me. How hard would it be to use the original dialog menu and just scroll through the options with the dpad?

I an not sure but i have heard that Mass effect started with it Paragon/Renegate from one side and another, homogenizing all choices and devs started to copy it everywhere without any reflection about what is the best for the game.

Is like with cooldowns. Started with few fire spells who had the side effect of making the caster's body hotter and having a time to "cool the body down" in a MUD and now 99,9% of the games copy without any explanation to why i need to wait X seconds to jump again...
 

DJOGamer PT

Arcane
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
7,514
Location
Lusitânia
Is doable but not immersive. Wolves should attack you as a pack but in the game, only one attack you. For honor combat is not doable if mobs has a aggressive AI.

When I was talking multiple oponents I meant human oponents not AI, who as you know are much more agressive and unforgiving than any AI.
Then since this is an RPG and not a multiplayer figthing game, the player would eventually get better gear which would make that task even much more doable.
Besides considering how much of a mess Gothic melee combat was I would be hard pressed to call it an immersive experience...

Not when with the old system, i can hit enemies 5 times in few seconds and with this system, i need dozens of times more time

But again that is just a case of properly balancing the damage/HP values, not making alterations to the mechanicsa themselves that make up the combat.

For honor combat is awful. If they wanna copy a combat, they should copy the Dark Souls combat.

I already said in a previous post here that I think the biggest inconvenience of this combat system is that it's properly suited for figths against non-humanoid enemies (plus the fact they still have a significant amount of polish to be done, for it to be on point when it comes to humanoid figths). And so they would have to do a good deal of changes to make it work on monsters.
But let's not make ludicrous claims. For Honor combat is genuinely good.
A copy of Dark Souls combat would be much easier and less troublesome to implement to achieve their purposes, but it also wouldn't given anything special over every other game that is aping DS nor would it make their combat system particularly good in any way.
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
14,793
Location
Frostfell
When I was talking multiple oponents I meant human oponents not AI, who as you know are much more agressive and unforgiving than any AI.

Did you played Gothic 1? Enemies are much more smarter than other games. For eg, humans on free mines are positioned in a smart way, crossbowmans in a protected place where they can hit anyone who enters and knights charging at you from the unique way in. Wolves circles you and you can for eg use the body of animals to separate wolf from his pack.

Then since this is an RPG and not a multiplayer figthing game, the player would eventually get better gear which would make that task even much more doable.

Not only gear. Gothic is not a barbie dressing game where 100% of your character DNA is on the boot that he is wearing. maxed STR + Stone Crusher, a mid grade weapon obtained on chap 2 = 137 damage. Maxed STR(100) +
Scar's Sword = 185 damage ( http://www.mikesrpgcenter.com/gothic/weapons/onehanded.html )

Besides considering how much of a mess Gothic melee combat was I would be hard pressed to call it an immersive experience...

I don't think that the melee combat is a "mess" on gothic. In fact, Gothic is the unique game where when you start, you swing your weapon like a anime shonen protagonist. When you pay for someone to train you in one hand, you start to use a correct posture. You can say that the controls are UNintuitive at first but good once you get used to it. And if you don't like melee combat, just play as a mage/archer.



But again that is just a case of properly balancing the damage/HP values, not making alterations to the mechanicsa themselves that make up the combat.

Part because they inflated the hp/damage values and part because For Honor combat IS SLOW. Takes a very long time to hit a enemy on for honor combat.

But let's not make ludicrous claims. For Honor combat is genuinely good.
A copy of Dark Souls combat would be much easier and less troublesome to implement to achieve their purposes, but it also wouldn't given anything special over every other game that is aping DS nor would it make their combat system particularly good in any way.

I rather have nothing special than having a awful thing. And again, for honor combat is for a slow paced human vs human melee pvp. And guess what. For Honor combat is only popular on consoles.

Look to steamcharts. For Honor has 3k active players ( https://steamcharts.com/search/?q=for+honor ) while MORDHAU a indie game has 5k active players ( https://steamcharts.com/app/629760 )

-------------------------------------------------------

I honestly had the impression that they was thinking that gothic was good only due the story and ignored completely that Immersion was one of the crucial aspects that make Gothic 1/2/3 amazing experiences. They are trying to please console "press A for awesome players", not gothic fans

IMO Launch this crap for consoles and make a graphical/compatibility US$60 for PC.
 

DJOGamer PT

Arcane
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
7,514
Location
Lusitânia
Did you played Gothic 1? Enemies are much more smarter than other games. For eg, humans on free mines are positioned in a smart way, crossbowmans in a protected place where they can hit anyone who enters and knights charging at you from the unique way in. Wolves circles you and you can for eg use the body of animals to separate wolf from his pack.

There's nothing here that hasn't been done in other hack 'n' slashes.
But my point was that human players are more cunning, unforgiving and skilled than any AI opponents and For Honor's combat is doable with multiple oponents.

I don't think that the melee combat is a "mess" on gothic. In fact, Gothic is the unique game where when you start, you swing your weapon like a anime shonen protagonist. When you pay for someone to train you in one hand, you start to use a correct posture.

The PC figthing better has they progress (=mastering their martial art and performing advanced moves with ease) is also something most hack 'n' slashes have. But completely unskilled characters picking weapons in a amateur fashion is a very nice touch.

As for combat being a mess, controls are just one part of the problem. The animations are janky which makes things like getting a read on enemies, properly timing combos (and specially parries) and overall movement troublesome. Backing up to parry, makes defense rather effortless. It's also easy to get enemies in a stun-lock and enemies have a very small move list. So figths don't become really involving affairs like they are in good hack 'n' slashes, but rather a "whack the enemy to death before he does" routine. Overall it's a weak system, and on top of it you have the controls - which figths against multiple oponents really show how bad they are.

For Honor combat IS SLOW.

You were asking for Dark Souls combat which is slower.
Also slow how?

I rather have nothing special than having a awful thing.

You keep saying that, but you never explained why yout think the combat is so awful?

For Honor combat is only popular on consoles.

Doesn't use popularity as a measure for quality.
 
Last edited:

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom