Pathfinder Why Owlcat's Kingmaker Sucks, in Plain Language

[NJClaw]

Oh, you want criticism. Well some spell descriptions are utterly useless.
This makes enemies dazzled, frightened, shaken, etc.
There is no way in game to find out what those effects do game mechanics wise, which makes those descriptions about as useful as foam sword in a gunfight.
And they have a perfectly functional mechanic in conversations, of getting more info on certain words, why the fuck wouldn't you implement that for spells?

Sometimes they have the decency to inform you of the effects of the various conditions, other times you have to rely on the internet. Luckily, you can find everything you need here:

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/

 

[GentlemanCthulhu]

Locking conversation choices behind allignment. Is this a good idea? I don't have the option to broker peace between the kobolds and the mites because my char is not neutral. I play lawful evil. How would striking the deal oppose it in any way? Man this really sucks. Kinda makes me not want to continue.

 

[TemplarGR]

It sucks because it sucks.

 

[LannTheStupid]

PSA: Pathfinder: Kingmaker has in-game encyclopedia.

 

[Shitty Kitty]

Locking conversation choices behind allignment. Is this a good idea? I don't have the option to broker peace between the kobolds and the mites because my char is not neutral. I play lawful evil. How would striking the deal oppose it in any way? Man this really sucks. Kinda makes me not want to continue.

I noticed that too and it doesn't really make any sense to me. A LE character is not hidebound to always do LE things, surely. That would mean that alignment shift is not an option (and yet it CLEARLY IS in PF:K and in every other game I've ever played that was at least tangentially related to D&D). To say "you're LE you can't choose a Neutral dialog option" just puts cart before horse, as if to say "You are your alignment first and a thinking being second". And yet as a NG character I could choose dialog options at the settlement that WERE NOT NG in nature. It not only makes no sense in the context of the game system it's not even consistent WITHIN THE GAME ITSELF.

Also, I'm pretty sure I remember things with "mind-affecting", "enchantment" and so on working on big fucking bugs and spiders in 2e-based stuff (BG, IWD), 3e-based stuff (NWN, IWD2) and I want to say I remember some shit in 3.5e-based games like ToEE working on those types as well.

 

[Desiderius]

Oh, you want criticism. Well some spell descriptions are utterly useless.
This makes enemies dazzled, frightened, shaken, etc.
There is no way in game to find out what those effects do game mechanics wise, which makes those descriptions about as useful as foam sword in a gunfight.
And they have a perfectly functional mechanic in conversations, of getting more info on certain words, why the fuck wouldn't you implement that for spells?
Oh yeah and I made sure to turn off simplified spell descriptions so that was a surprise at char creation when picking spells.

No I want you to stop confusing your ignorance for game shortcomings. If you mouseover any of those effects it will tell you exactly what they do.

If you want to know something ask. Advertising your ignorance just makes you look like an ass.

 

[Desiderius]

It is kind of funny that these sort of complaints tend always to arise from the people who fancy themselves LE.

The clueless Karen alignment.

 

[Delterius]

i was sexually harassed by queen b'dah and now demand to speak with the manager of those mites

 

[LannTheStupid]

It is kind of funny that these sort of complaints tend always to arise from the people who fancy themselves LE.

Hey, I consider myself LE/NE, and I can not only read the letters, but understand the words!

i was sexually harassed by queen b'dah

Should've sided with kobolds.

 

[Shitty Kitty]

It is kind of funny that these sort of complaints tend always to arise from the people who fancy themselves LE.

The clueless Karen alignment.

"Clueless Karens" would be NE because I've never seen a "Karen" type that didn't just BREAK her own rules whenever it was convenient. Not loophole, just break/ignore. "Rules are for people that aren't me" is NE/CE.

Should've sided with kobolds.

tell me more about your shortstack lizard fetish

 

[GentlemanCthulhu]

I noticed that too and it doesn't really make any sense to me. A LE character is not hidebound to always do LE things, surely. That would mean that alignment shift is not an option (and yet it CLEARLY IS in PF:K and in every other game I've ever played that was at least tangentially related to D&D). To say "you're LE you can't choose a Neutral dialog option" just puts cart before horse, as if to say "You are your alignment first and a thinking being second". And yet as a NG character I could choose dialog options at the settlement that WERE NOT NG in nature. It not only makes no sense in the context of the game system it's not even consistent WITHIN THE GAME ITSELF.

I agree, and even besides all this, I see a lawful evil character as someone who would happily broker peace between two factions (restore the law and order) for personal benefit (a peaceful kingdom would confer personal benefits). The 'evil' should've been reconciled thorough the method of brokering said peace (kill all the leaders and force them into it!), not by thinking that the entire thing is only something a 'neutral' person would do, effectively locking out so many other allignments. Consider that a lawful good person would also be locked out of the peaceful option here...

ngl, i find this game incredibly childish. Everything from the style of the writing to the cartoony characters and basic interpretation of good and evil makes me think this game's been made for children. I know that's not the case considering that the subject matter can be mature as well, and even well done in some cases. I just don't know how they can even make such arbitrary choices that result in locking options behind alignments.

 

[Shitty Kitty]

I noticed that too and it doesn't really make any sense to me. A LE character is not hidebound to always do LE things, surely. That would mean that alignment shift is not an option (and yet it CLEARLY IS in PF:K and in every other game I've ever played that was at least tangentially related to D&D). To say "you're LE you can't choose a Neutral dialog option" just puts cart before horse, as if to say "You are your alignment first and a thinking being second". And yet as a NG character I could choose dialog options at the settlement that WERE NOT NG in nature. It not only makes no sense in the context of the game system it's not even consistent WITHIN THE GAME ITSELF.

I agree, and even besides all this, I see a lawful evil character as someone who would happily broker peace between two factions (restore the law and order) for personal benefit (a peaceful kingdom would confer personal benefits). The 'evil' should've been reconciled thorough the method of brokering said peace (kill all the leaders and force them into it!), not by thinking that the entire thing is only something a 'neutral' person would do, effectively locking out so many other allignments.

ngl, i find this game incredibly childish. Everything from the style of the writing to the cartoony characters and basic interpretation of good and evil makes me think this game's been made for children. I know that's not the case considering that the subject matter can be mature as well, and even well done in some cases. I just don't know how they can even make such arbitrary choices that result in locking options behind alignments.

from what I hear PF in general is notorious for having an idiotic, wooden and/or childish concept of good and evil

 

[Dishonoredbr]

Just got the game on Steam , any tips? Also for a first playthought , Turn Based or RtWP? I played Deadfire in both so i don't have a real problem with neither , just want to know what's best experience overal in terms of balancel.

 

[GentlemanCthulhu]

Yeah i mean, in that specific scenario even 'good' characters would be locked out of the peaceful options (the requirement is 'netural').

 

[Shitty Kitty]

Just got the game on Steam , any tips? Also for a first playthought , Turn Based or RtWP? I played Deadfire in both so i don't have a real problem with neither , just want to know what's best experience overal in terms of balancel.

I started off just leaving it as RTWP and hated it because when enough shit starts happening it becomes really easy to lose track of things and then the AI just decides to do whatever while you're not actively micromanaging it

 

[LannTheStupid]

I played Deadfire

Refund Kingmaker and forget about it.

 

[Dishonoredbr]

Just got the game on Steam , any tips? Also for a first playthought , Turn Based or RtWP? I played Deadfire in both so i don't have a real problem with neither , just want to know what's best experience overal in terms of balancel.

I started off just leaving it as RTWP and hated it because when enough shit starts happening it becomes really easy to lose track of things and then the AI just decides to do whatever while you're not actively micromanaging it

Oh so there's a AI that comes into play if you don't micro them ? Well , i guess gonna go for Turn Based then, unless there's a gambit like system in the game.

 

[Dishonoredbr]

Refund Kingmaker and forget about it.

No.

 

[Shitty Kitty]

Just got the game on Steam , any tips? Also for a first playthought , Turn Based or RtWP? I played Deadfire in both so i don't have a real problem with neither , just want to know what's best experience overal in terms of balancel.

I started off just leaving it as RTWP and hated it because when enough shit starts happening it becomes really easy to lose track of things and then the AI just decides to do whatever while you're not actively micromanaging it

Oh so there's a AI that comes into play if you don't micro them ? Well , i guess gonna go for Turn Based then, unless there's a gambit like system in the game.

I think you can disable/customize party AI but not sure

 

[Grampy_Bone]

All Soviet people and their descendants are naturally adept at the game.

Masochism. Soviets enjoy being tortured. Solzhenitsyn said it himself: "Why didn't we fight back?"

In any case, bad party comp is a common early criticism of the game. Pretty sure it's possible to reach the spider cave without Harrim or Val, though that would mean you have Jaethal who's actually the best person to have there. Trying to tank with Amiri is the newb trap. Giving the party a bard instead of a real spellcaster is also a mean joke. Then again you only have to ignore all the prompts and urgency and head over to pick up Reg, Tristian, and Arcane Trickster (forget her name?) and you're fine. But how is a new player going to know that? Owlcat's design shows a strange ignorance of how players approach games.

 

[Shitty Kitty]

In any case, bad party comp is a common early criticism of the game. Pretty sure it's possible to reach the spider cave without Harrim or Val, though that would mean you have Jaethal who's actually the best person to have there. Trying to tank with Amiri is the newb trap. Giving the party a bard instead of a real spellcaster is also a mean joke. Then again you only have to ignore all the prompts and urgency and head over to pick up Reg, Tristian, and Arcane Trickster (forget her name?) and you're fine. But how is a new player going to know that? Owlcat's design shows a strange ignorance of how players approach games.

Didn't PF actually turn 3.5's bards into a really potent class though? 3.5 bards weren't really weak to begin with.

And if there's an RPC Arcane Trickster then fuck it, I'll just roll a Paladin or beefy Cleric and not worry about not having Harrim just yet.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Didn't PF actually turn 3.5's bards into a really potent class though? 3.5 bards weren't really weak to begin with.

Any pure spellcaster is objectively stronger, especially as levels pile up. No matter how you look at it, having an entire party slot dedicated to a buffing bot is a waste, especially one who has to concentrate on each of their buffs.

(Yes I know you can use lingering song to do something else every other round but vanilla PFK was not designed to micromanage turn actions like that. TB mode makes her much better but then again TB mode makes every fight way easier. Still doesn't change the fact that a pure caster can set and forget the buffs and do something useful on every subsequent turn).

 

[bec de corbin]

Just got the game on Steam , any tips? Also for a first playthought , Turn Based or RtWP? I played Deadfire in both so i don't have a real problem with neither , just want to know what's best experience overal in terms of balancel.

There's lots of trash encounters that may get tedious with turn-based, but it's not like Deadfire--you can switch between them whenever you want because everything works off rounds regardless. So you can switch to real-time for fighting big groups of kobolds or whatever, if you want.

 

[Dishonoredbr]

Just got the game on Steam , any tips? Also for a first playthought , Turn Based or RtWP? I played Deadfire in both so i don't have a real problem with neither , just want to know what's best experience overal in terms of balancel.

There's lots of trash encounters that may get tedious with turn-based, but it's not like Deadfire--you can switch between them whenever you want because everything works off rounds regardless. So you can switch to real-time for fighting big groups of kobolds or whatever, if you want.

That's great. Thanks for the head ups.

 

[Shitty Kitty]

The idea of party AI being on by default is stupid anyway. An advanced, experienced CRPG player is either going to have no issue micromanaging a party or he's at least going to set up his own custom AI scripts. A less-experienced player is better served by being taught that he has an entire party at his disposal and should learn how to best make use of them instead of letting them do their own thing.