Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Testownia]

Spoiler

The lie about her being haunted by a spirit? You make it a reality, and make it really haunt her. The lie about her needing to perform rituals? Also come true. And, to say it mildly, it freaks her out.

Generally, in many ways, the Aeon and Trickster paths are surprisingly similar. Both bend and warp reality according to their whims.

It doesn't stop her romance though, right?

I THINK that Camelia's romance is a dead-end for Aeon, since she grows increasingly scared of you, even if you don't want to actively judge her. Although, on the other hand, anyone who romances Camelia whilst not being Chaotic Evil is a total simp coomer, since she's arguably a person of pure, unadulterated evil, insanity, and debauchery.

Without actively judging her she never tells you that the spirit stuff is all a sham.

But I seem to remember datamined dialogue where she runs away all the same, since she's living in constant fear of you. After all, she is not insane - just absolutely pure evil.

 

[CaesarCzech]

By the way - I read a Discord chat with one of the developers, and apparently, EVERY path will have two routes. The explicitly given example was the Angel Path, which will be separated into the Angel of Mercy and Angel of Retribution routes.

Datamined dialogue has already indicated there will be a somewhat more "humane" Swarm Path, one where you're not a complete genocidal monster.

I'm much more curious about Paths like the Trickster or the Azata - I don't see much room for two divergent routes there.

Anyone betting Humane swarm path is going to be IM DONE WITH EVERYBODYS SHIT. FUCK IOMEDAE FUCK THE QUEEN FUCK THE DEMONS, just remove them and then let the people deal with this mess and do their thing ? Would fit you leave behind a mess but its mess that can be rebuild and land that can recover and prosper.

Spoiler

trickster can fucking destroy camelia's life

Care to elaborate?

Spoiler

lets just say all her lies become real

Trickster pulls reverse Aeon ? Instead of changing things to be natural, Trickster changes the definition.
Also What are the chances for trickster split being between Loki esque route in myths and pure chaos havoc for fun. Loki functions as sort of Antihero in some of Norse stories so i could imagine the route. basically Loki esque route would have trickster would still have tricksters go with the flow but it would be merely in means rather than goal. Basically i think Trickster might be split between more Joker like in terms of chaos and more Loki like in terms of chaos.

 

[Parabalus]

Spoiler

The lie about her being haunted by a spirit? You make it a reality, and make it really haunt her. The lie about her needing to perform rituals? Also come true. And, to say it mildly, it freaks her out.

Generally, in many ways, the Aeon and Trickster paths are surprisingly similar. Both bend and warp reality according to their whims.

It doesn't stop her romance though, right?

I THINK that Camelia's romance is a dead-end for Aeon, since she grows increasingly scared of you, even if you don't want to actively judge her. Although, on the other hand, anyone who romances Camelia whilst not being Chaotic Evil is a total simp coomer, since she's arguably a person of pure, unadulterated evil, insanity, and debauchery.

Without actively judging her she never tells you that the spirit stuff is all a sham.

But I seem to remember datamined dialogue where she runs away all the same, since she's living in constant fear of you. After all, she is not insane - just absolutely pure evil.

In my run she told me she's afraid of being judged, but I could reassure her I won't judge my companions. She didn't complain afterwards, didn't romance her though.

That's why I was curious about your datamining of the Aeon questline, since even being lenient I could redeem the two villians through time-travelling.

 

[CaesarCzech]

Spoiler

The lie about her being haunted by a spirit? You make it a reality, and make it really haunt her. The lie about her needing to perform rituals? Also come true. And, to say it mildly, it freaks her out.

Generally, in many ways, the Aeon and Trickster paths are surprisingly similar. Both bend and warp reality according to their whims.

It doesn't stop her romance though, right?

I THINK that Camelia's romance is a dead-end for Aeon, since she grows increasingly scared of you, even if you don't want to actively judge her. Although, on the other hand, anyone who romances Camelia whilst not being Chaotic Evil is a total simp coomer, since she's arguably a person of pure, unadulterated evil, insanity, and debauchery.

Without actively judging her she never tells you that the spirit stuff is all a sham.

But I seem to remember datamined dialogue where she runs away all the same, since she's living in constant fear of you. After all, she is not insane - just absolutely pure evil.

In my run she told me she's afraid of being judged, but I could reassure her I won't judge my companions. She didn't complain afterwards, didn't romance her though.

That's why I was curious about your datamining of the Aeon questline, since even being lenient I could redeem the two villians through time-travelling.

Wouldnt it make a woman character Naturally unredemably evil ? Lol i guess i know why they stuck that romance option of straight males lol, can you imagine LGBI reeeees ?

BTW Afraid of being judged, and assured that you wont judge her lol, Context is really important here.

 

[The_Mask]

Okay, so here we go... I promised a post where I would point out the shit I encountered. But before I go forth and explode, we need to paint the background to this painting:

1. We're going by the general idea that if a better game did it, maybe you should do it too.
2. We're going by the general idea that if a better game did it, and it sucked, maybe you shouldn't do it too.
3. I've already submitted the glaring amount of bugs I've encountered, and completed their survey.

Notions that I will be using, because I'm not a game developer, but I have played DotA 2 on and off for like 15 years:

1. character vision = the vision the selected character currently has
2. ground vision = vision the character would have placed on ground level
3. flying vision = vision the character would have placed approx. 10m -> 20m into the air
4. unobstructed vision = vision the character would have if they knew the map, or activated god-mode (think blacksheepwall in StarCraft 1)

I am also going to try to be coherent in the structure of my post, but I guarantee nothing, because I know myself, and once I start going with the shit, I succumb to blind rage, and I may go out of control. I've also restarted a lot, to try things, so I've only played the first 2 chapters. Sorry, Owlcat. I have a day job. <3

• The vision game is still shit. Namely the "Light Spell" is pure decorational, and actively helps the player, not the character. It's very similar to the Moonlight spell in NOX, but AoE.

Speaking of the vision game, Owlcat figured out how to get things spicy, having single characters with sneak attacks, actively hiding in plain sight. 1 Babau can fuck up a party memeber like there's no tomorrow. But where they give in spice, they take in other places - The Spice Must Flow kind of way. If you get attacked by a ranged "unit"/character/whatever, you get a sense of where they are
HOWEVER
if you retaliate, you automatically get flying vision.
What?
HOW?
Are my characters suddenly being able to see through other peoples' eyes?

• Speaking of "funny stuff you see", I couldn't believe my eyes, when I had to defend a tavern, and I had to do so against ENDLESS SPAWNS!

The only RPG in videogame history that got away with ENDLESS SPAWNS is Planescape: Torment, and even IT was largely scrutinized for it. If you can't code for shit. If your units have a hard time walking through a door, because YOU CAN'T CODE TURN-BASED MODE RIGHT, then why are you so confident in ENDLESS SPAWNS.
I actually activated my gamer stubborn mode. I spent 40 turns, just to see if those cultists were indeed endless. I couldn't believe my eyes.

• Speaking of gouging your eyes... everyone is using reach weapons now. I can imagine why. It's because people figured out P:K and used Fauchards. Problem being, if you're going to give everyone ways to reach everywhere, then you're taking the value out of Enlarge Person. Can we try to look at encounter design from the view of the characters involved? Have some sense on the battlefield from the perspective of the BURNING LEGION OF DOOOOOOOOOOM, rather than... reach weaponz R GUD?

• Speaking of reach and flexibility, why are we still not able to sell the loot we get for a decent amount of money? Those lands are ravaged by demons. FOR YEARS! I imagine a good set of armour can sell for a pretty penny. Are you afraid to give us money? If you are - why? A good RPG designer will give you all the money you want, and destroy you anyway. BG 2, allowed you to actively steal, and rob half of the inventory you would sport, AND WOULD STILL fuck you up anyway.

• And now... let's talk about the most dreaded thing of all. You know it's coming: the weaving of gameplay-into-narrative and narrative-into-gameplay.

Owlcat has introduced the HoMM style combat. Which, at first glance looks absolutely fantastic, and much like any Eastern European born, I myself am a victim of the HoMM love. I like it. But... *sighs with a deep heart ache* the very first fight like this was a complete and utter turn off. The enemy units went straight for my archers and destroyed them in 2 hits.

Anal-sys:
If you're playing HoMM, the AI reacted perfectly. Going for the archers makes perfect sense.

Does it make sense from the perspective of a ranging hoard of demons that literally doesn't care? Not really.

It feels phalic. It feels exactly like Josh Sawyer smashing his cock down on the table with his shitty, boring settings. It feels like McComb slapping his cock on the table with his "writing".

Please, Owlcat, please... for the love that all is holy (no pun intended) don't slap your cock on my table. Use the HoMM style combat as a tool to tell a story, to augument gameplay, and/or to have it as a bridge between gameplay and story. Don't masturbate in my videogames. Don't slap your cock on table. You will get chopped. I would hate to see you mocked like Sawyer or McComb.

• And finally, a message to the writing dept. with the caveat that I haven't beaten the game, or advanced too much into it, so I may not have experienced arcs, and so I MAY be wrong here:

There are a few places (I should have screenshotted them) where various crusading characters, including the Queen herself are portrayed as "looking around with pride". I don't follow. We're on a crusade. Pride is one of the Seven Deadly Sins.
Again... it may come to pass that those characters where "pride" is often used, might bite the bullet in the end, and I don't know. But when you use the word "pride" so much, you better be setting me up for some flogging. And so... this paragraph is more of a warning, rather than "a glaring issue".

That's pretty much it, I think. The rest I've either reported. Or submitted in my questionnaire.



End note: The game is decent so far. Far less buggy, and tighter than P:K, but - unfortunately for Owlcat - I have invested money and so I have to point out the shit.



P.S.: For those interested, the resting system is fine. Relaxed if you're sloppy once or twice. Punishing, if you're keen on being retarded. The way it should be to make it fun.

P.P.S.: I'm lazy. I won't check my spelling. Sorry for any words that insult your sensibilities.

EDIT: Added some bullets to make it easier to read.

 

[Desiderius]

The enemy units went straight for my archers and destroyed them in 2 hits.

I mean, git gud? Maybe, I don't know, split a unit? Use some tactics?

I don't follow. We're on a crusade. Pride is one of the Seven Deadly Sins.
Again... it may come to pass that those characters where "pride" is often used, might bite the bullet in the end, and I don't know. But when you use the word "pride" so much, you better be setting me up for some flogging. And so... this paragraph is more of a warning, rather than "a glaring issue".

You've stumbled upon the Decline of the West, now infecting the East from whence it came.

 

[The_Mask]

I mean, git gud? Maybe, I don't know, split a unit? Use some tactics?

I know all of the HoMM style tactics, but if this game is being played by a 10-year-old like I was back then, these solutions may not come as easy. That's 1.
And 2, as I said in my post, these types of encounters are not the "meat" of the game. They should be spice on top of a good meal. The burning legions of hell care little for strategy. It's stated in the narrative itself in the first chapter. The forces of evil have always had trouble coordinating. Use that narrative idea and transplant it into my gameplay.

Bottom line: It's all I ask. To be treated with a modicum of respect.

 

[Desiderius]

OK, then add some more unit types to get split stacks by default. As it is they've nerfed the Archers to be next to useless (at least early) so AI will probably operate as you foresee.

 

[CaesarCzech]

I mean, git gud? Maybe, I don't know, split a unit? Use some tactics?

I know all of the HoMM style tactics, but if this game is being played by a 10-year-old like I was back then, these solutions may not come as easy. That's 1.
And 2, as I said in my post, these types of encounters are not the "meat" of the game. They should be spice on top of a good meal. The burning legions of hell care little for strategy. It's stated in the narrative itself in the first chapter. The forces of evil have always had trouble coordinating. Use that narrative idea and transplant it into my gameplay.

Bottom line: It's all I ask. To be treated with a modicum of respect.

Plus it would allow to have few fights where the forces of evil fight smart and turn it into tactical bossfight against generals that are actually able to intimidate and herd forces of demon to actually do their job properly.

 

[The_Mask]

Plus it would allow to have few fights where the forces of evil fight smart and turn it into tactical bossfight against generals that are actually able to intimidate and herd forces of demon to actually do their job properly.

This guy gets it.

 

[Parabalus]

The HoMM part just adds nothing to the game at the moment.

It needs time limits, base building competing for resources and some more complexity.

 

[Delterius]

Spoiler

trickster can fucking destroy camelia's life

Care to elaborate?

Spoiler

The lie about her being haunted by a spirit? You make it a reality, and make it really haunt her. The lie about her needing to perform rituals? Also come true. And, to say it mildly, it freaks her out.

Generally, in many ways, the Aeon and Trickster paths are surprisingly similar. Both bend and warp reality according to their whims.

Aeon is definitely a reality warper. They bring about changes in space time. Trickster is moreso about the nature of curses, a powerful form of magic that is powered by the irony of destiny, held back only by certain nebulous rules of engagement. Kingmaker's secret ending is all about understanding curses. Its a fey thing.

 

[Xamenos]

It needs time limits

 

[Desiderius]

The HoMM part just adds nothing to the game at the moment.

It needs time limits, base building competing for resources and some more complexity.

They had them but took them out. Too much smarmy Uzbek CEO and Babushka Onlyfans and Cannibal chix and faggotry.

Not enough hiring Holic.

Related:

 

[Parabalus]

The HoMM part just adds nothing to the game at the moment.

It needs time limits, base building competing for resources and some more complexity.

They had them but took them out. Too much smarmy Uzbek CEO and Babushka Onlyfans and Cannibal chix and faggotry.

Not enough hiring Holic.

Related:

Surely they must add them back, otherwise there is no point to the system. Probably still unfinished.

 

[CaesarCzech]

The HoMM part just adds nothing to the game at the moment.

It needs time limits, base building competing for resources and some more complexity.

They had them but took them out. Too much smarmy Uzbek CEO and Babushka Onlyfans and Cannibal chix and faggotry.

Not enough hiring Holic.

Related:

Surely they must add them back, otherwise there is no point to the system. Probably still unfinished.

Crusades lasted for hundreds of years why suddenly be on time limit ? Time limit only makes sense for individual tasks whose fail will hurt crusade but wont kill it.

 

[Salvo]

Okay, so here we go... I promised a post where I would point out the shit I encountered. But before I go forth and explode, we need to paint the background to this painting:

1. We're going by the general idea that if a better game did it, maybe you should do it too.
2. We're going by the general idea that if a better game did it, and it sucked, maybe you shouldn't do it too.
3. I've already submitted the glaring amount of bugs I've encountered, and completed their survey.

Notions that I will be using, because I'm not a game developer, but I have played DotA 2 on and off for like 15 years:

1. character vision = the vision the selected character currently has
2. ground vision = vision the character would have placed on ground level
3. flying vision = vision the character would have placed approx. 10m -> 20m into the air
4. unobstructed vision = vision the character would have if they knew the map, or activated god-mode (think blacksheepwall in StarCraft 1)

I am also going to try to be coherent in the structure of my post, but I guarantee nothing, because I know myself, and once I start going with the shit, I succumb to blind rage, and I may go out of control. I've also restarted a lot, to try things, so I've only played the first 2 chapters. Sorry, Owlcat. I have a day job. <3

• The vision game is still shit. Namely the "Light Spell" is pure decorational, and actively helps the player, not the character. It's very similar to the Moonlight spell in NOX, but AoE.

Speaking of the vision game, Owlcat figured out how to get things spicy, having single characters with sneak attacks, actively hiding in plain sight. 1 Babau can fuck up a party memeber like there's no tomorrow. But where they give in spice, they take in other places - The Spice Must Flow kind of way. If you get attacked by a ranged "unit"/character/whatever, you get a sense of where they are
HOWEVER
if you retaliate, you automatically get flying vision.
What?
HOW?
Are my characters suddenly being able to see through other peoples' eyes?

• Speaking of "funny stuff you see", I couldn't believe my eyes, when I had to defend a tavern, and I had to do so against ENDLESS SPAWNS!

The only RPG in videogame history that got away with ENDLESS SPAWNS is Planescape: Torment, and even IT was largely scrutinized for it. If you can't code for shit. If your units have a hard time walking through a door, because YOU CAN'T CODE TURN-BASED MODE RIGHT, then why are you so confident in ENDLESS SPAWNS.
I actually activated my gamer stubborn mode. I spent 40 turns, just to see if those cultists were indeed endless. I couldn't believe my eyes.

• Speaking of gouging your eyes... everyone is using reach weapons now. I can imagine why. It's because people figured out P:K and used Fauchards. Problem being, if you're going to give everyone ways to reach everywhere, then you're taking the value out of Enlarge Person. Can we try to look at encounter design from the view of the characters involved? Have some sense on the battlefield from the perspective of the BURNING LEGION OF DOOOOOOOOOOM, rather than... reach weaponz R GUD?

• Speaking of reach and flexibility, why are we still not able to sell the loot we get for a decent amount of money? Those lands are ravaged by demons. FOR YEARS! I imagine a good set of armour can sell for a pretty penny. Are you afraid to give us money? If you are - why? A good RPG designer will give you all the money you want, and destroy you anyway. BG 2, allowed you to actively steal, and rob half of the inventory you would sport, AND WOULD STILL fuck you up anyway.

• And now... let's talk about the most dreaded thing of all. You know it's coming: the weaving of gameplay-into-narrative and narrative-into-gameplay.

Owlcat has introduced the HoMM style combat. Which, at first glance looks absolutely fantastic, and much like any Eastern European born, I myself am a victim of the HoMM love. I like it. But... *sighs with a deep heart ache* the very first fight like this was a complete and utter turn off. The enemy units went straight for my archers and destroyed them in 2 hits.

Anal-sys:
If you're playing HoMM, the AI reacted perfectly. Going for the archers makes perfect sense.

Does it make sense from the perspective of a ranging hoard of demons that literally doesn't care? Not really.

It feels phalic. It feels exactly like Josh Sawyer smashing his cock down on the table with his shitty, boring settings. It feels like McComb slapping his cock on the table with his "writing".

Please, Owlcat, please... for the love that all is holy (no pun intended) don't slap your cock on my table. Use the HoMM style combat as a tool to tell a story, to augument gameplay, and/or to have it as a bridge between gameplay and story. Don't masturbate in my videogames. Don't slap your cock on table. You will get chopped. I would hate to see you mocked like Sawyer or McComb.

• And finally, a message to the writing dept. with the caveat that I haven't beaten the game, or advanced too much into it, so I may not have experienced arcs, and so I MAY be wrong here:

There are a few places (I should have screenshotted them) where various crusading characters, including the Queen herself are portrayed as "looking around with pride". I don't follow. We're on a crusade. Pride is one of the Seven Deadly Sins.
Again... it may come to pass that those characters where "pride" is often used, might bite the bullet in the end, and I don't know. But when you use the word "pride" so much, you better be setting me up for some flogging. And so... this paragraph is more of a warning, rather than "a glaring issue".

That's pretty much it, I think. The rest I've either reported. Or submitted in my questionnaire.



End note: The game is decent so far. Far less buggy, and tighter than P:K, but - unfortunately for Owlcat - I have invested money and so I have to point out the shit.



P.S.: For those interested, the resting system is fine. Relaxed if you're sloppy once or twice. Punishing, if you're keen on being retarded. The way it should be to make it fun.

P.P.S.: I'm lazy. I won't check my spelling. Sorry for any words that insult your sensibilities.

EDIT: Added some bullets to make it easier to read.

Most cultists use reach weapons because Glaives are the favored weapon of Baphomet and the Scythe is Deskari's (the two main demonlords of the campaign). I'd say it's more of a coincidence than a deliberate decision.

 

[Lord of Riva]

The HoMM part just adds nothing to the game at the moment.

It needs time limits, base building competing for resources and some more complexity.

Kingmaker was heavily critizised for having time limits i really doubt they will go that route and I am also not sure if it is the best approach either personally.

 

[Parabalus]

Currently in the beta you can skip turn until you have an overwhelming army, since time isn't a factor.

It's renders the whole system meaningless. They will prob implement enemy attacks of increasing strength.

 

[Lord of Riva]

Currently in the beta you can skip turn until you have an overwhelming army, since time isn't a factor.

It's renders the whole system meaningless. They will prob implement enemy attacks of increasing strength.

I am well aware that this is the case, having time limits though open another can of worms altogether. I am not sure if it is okay to talk about alpha stuff now that this is over but what they had in place was not better in my opinion.

The issue with time limits is that it harshly punishes those who are not good at the game, in this case one side aspect of it even. This is a horrible thing especially in a HoMaM style game where an army wipe midegame could mean a unsolvable situation in late game.

The lack of transpararency time limits bring is another issue, there were loads of people not understanding what the time limits *are* in Kingmaker. All in all i just do not think it makes or breaks the game either way, so while I could live with time limits I am certainly not in favor of them because it breaks the game for a lot of people.

 

[LannTheStupid]

it harshly punishes those who are not good at the game

This is the mandatory prerequisite of a good game. Full stop.

 

[Shadenuat]

timers don't punish those who are not good, they punish those who don't treat game world as a real place.

 

[Jackpot]

I don't mind time limits in parts of the game, but I really just don't want to be constantly under a time limit for the entire game.
Sometimes I just want to explore areas without constantly trying to stretch my characters to get as far as possible without resting.

For fuck's sake, I think I spent more time in combat in Kingmaker with all of my characters completely out of spells and abilities to use and full of ability damage then I did with them at 0 ability damage and able to use abilities.

 

[Desiderius]

That's fair, and they're going for that.

 

[Lord of Riva]

it harshly punishes those who are not good at the game

This is the mandatory prerequisite of a good game. Full stop.

A retarded position, a game is more than one moving part even if harsh difficulty is one of them (which by no means is mandatory) it is not necessary to have it in this specific aspect of the game.

So even if harsh difficulty and punishment were mandatory to argue that in the context of the time limits (instead of you know, the gameplay) is absurd.