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Anime The mistake a lot of modern boomer shooters make

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None of them have soulful protags with witty and memorable catchphrases either. Fatal mistake! That is why Shadow Warrior, Duke Nukem and Blood will always be the best singleplayer FPS games out there!

Never played Doom II or Blood, but I played Bloom, which is a hybrid between the two, more specifically, if Doomguy put his dick inside of Caleb's pussy and they had a baby, that is what Bloom is.

That description isn't me trying to be edgy at all, Bloom is exactly that: it's a morphed blend of assets from both games and IMO, it's better than the vanilla version of each when I compared gameplay footage from all three games on YouTube.

Caleb talks shit throughout the whole game if you choose to play him as your character, and while his weapons are inferior to Doomguy, his commentary made the game for me.
 

ciox

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I mean, they make this mistake even when they aren't pure shooters... lol.
This is one of the things I didn't like about Gloomwood, the way it just starts and never defines anything. You're still nobody and the world is still an arena and the enemies are still just random mobs, like you're playing Dusk again. It's coasting by on a kind "Look brah... You just get it brah... It's like... Thief and the 'Shock and whatever... nahm sayin..." energy, even though you sorta expect some actual substance from a slower-paced game like this.
 

Saint_Proverbius

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If you look at many actual 90s FPS games, they tend to have very clear plot hooks.
Doom had a story, if you mean "story" as in text files between level sets which those levels may or may not have followed the theme of the text file. Same thing goes with Doom 2. The Build Engine games were better at this, but id Software seemed more interested in cool levels as opposed to actually following any particular story. They didn't really change that philosophy until Quake 2, which followed Half Life. Since Half-Life, people started expecting a story and levels that followed it. I can't remember which id Software guy said it, but one of them said back in the day that the story in a game serves the same purpose as a plot in a porno. It doesn't really matter, but people expect there to be one.

I also wouldn't call System Shock a "Boomer Shooter". Unreal and Half-Life were the transitions away from the Boomer Shooter mold, even though they still retained aspects of the original shooters mechanically. Honestly, I'd say this had a lot to do with the transition to fully 3D games. You couldn't just flood the map with monsters anymore because 3D models of monsters ate up a lot more resources than using sprite monsters. A 486DX2/66 would run Doom II blazingly fast with a billion monsters in the level. Quake would run on that same system, but you're going to be playing it in a window on the screen the size of a postage stamp. You had to make up for the lack of what was a boomer shooter with something else, so Epic and Valve decided a more comprehensive story would fill in those gaps.

Supposedly prestigious Codex adopting dirty peasant Redditor labels such as "boomer shooter" is the biggest mistake of all.
I disagree. The problem is more interpreting what the definition means by "boomer" as the definition of the generation, which is completely inaccurate because it was Gen X that was playing those shooters as well as the fact you spend most of your time running around blasting everything with the shotgun in that game, i.e. "my BOOM stick." The only thing redditor about the definition is the misinterpretation of the meaning behind definition.
 

DJOGamer PT

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DUSK, we have... a nameless hero fighting endless waves of surreal enemies in surreal environments for no clear reason.
There's clues throughout the entire game has to why your PC is going on the rampage - the biggest one in level 7 of episode 3

In short, duskdude's family was sacrificed by cultists (they opposed the Cult, which had recently moved to the outskirts of the town of Dusk - also where duskdude lived), he tracks them down to the farm where upon he's discovered and the game begins
In the end it's revealed Nyarlanthotep orchestrated these events, because he sensed in you greater potential for violence than Jakob (the Cult's leader).


Also c'mon, let's not act like story in 90's shooters (with few exceptions) was nothing more than a throw-away paragraph that sometimes you had to dig up for in the manual lol
 

Lemming42

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Doom had a story, if you mean "story" as in text files between level sets which those levels may or may not have followed the theme of the text file.
But again, it's about the way it's conveyed in the game. Doom's actual story can be summarised in a single sentence, yeah (as can Half-Life's, come to think of it) but it's about the way the events play out from the player's perspective.

Each new enemy you meet is exciting because it typically seems to be from a worse layer of hell than you've previously encountered; Episode 2 lets you see more and more of hell itself consuming Deimos base as you travel; Inferno greets you with increasingly horrific visuals as you journey towards the heart of hell. The visuals (world textures, enemy design, weapon design, etc) actually mean something, rather than being abstract for the sake of it.

It feels like you're on a journey with gradually rising stakes, moments of triumph, and moments of danger, even if the story is deliberately simple and unintrusive. You don't really get this experience with a game like AMID EVIL or WRATH: Aeon of Ruin or Dread Templar, where the environments and enemies are intentionally abstract and meaningless.

Meeting your first Cacodemon in Doom* is exciting because contextually you know that it means the invasion of hell is progressing and you're moving closer to the heart of the corruption in Phobos base (represented by the Barons of Hell in E1M8). Seeing a new one of AMID EVIL's polygonal nightmares means nothing, since you have no real idea who you are or where you are or who you're fighting, and there's no wider story progressing around the player akin to the hell invasion from Doom. You could play AMID EVIL in reverse, starting with the last level and ending on the first, and other than the inverse difficulty curve you probably wouldn't even notice the difference, which isn't the case with Doom or Heretic.

*Iron Liches in Heretic even moreso, especially given their plot relevance as explained in the post-E1 text crawl
 

Saldrone

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The "mood and story" of Duke Nukem 3D is just B-movie action flick and yet it's still has more personality than those boomer shooters tbh
Of course, the 90s shooter that most fits that description is Quake, which is surreal and has enemies that don't look like anything and locations that are deliberately nonsensical...
Quake 2 has it even worse; At least the enemies in the first game were supernatural zombies and surreal demons since it had a lovecraftian thematic while the second game had a generic sci-fi setting and the enemies were just edgy cyborgs.
 

Häyhä

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The "mood and story" of Duke Nukem 3D is just B-movie action flick and yet it's still has more personality than those boomer shooters tbh
Of course, the 90s shooter that most fits that description is Quake, which is surreal and has enemies that don't look like anything and locations that are deliberately nonsensical...
Quake 2 has it even worse; At least the enemies in the first game were supernatural zombies and surreal demons since it had a lovecraftian thematic while the second game had a generic sci-fi setting and the enemies were just edgy cyborgs.

Probably because Quake 2 was never supposed to be a Quake game in the first place, it was supposed to be an entirely new scifi-shooter IP, but then they just said "fuck it" and changed it to Quake, probably because of name value and/or because they couldn't figure a clear identity for the game.

Funnily enough, and this is just my two-cents, Quake 2 actually could have been "Doom 3" with some tweaks to the enemies and visuals it could have been the first 3D polygonal Doom title.

20230810152448-1.jpg


It basically looks like some Hellscape (btw. how is it possible there hasn't already been a major video game called "Hellscape"?), slap some Cacodemons etc. there and voila. Even the weapons are basically same as in Doom or very similar, there's even the BFG.
 
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Luzur

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My issue with a lot of modern boomer shooters is that they're very formulaic. It's very hard to remember a modern Boomer shooter that doesn't wear its inspirations on its sleeve with next to no tact. They're all very rigid.
Arthurian Legends? I mean people say it's like Witchhaven done right, or if it had a baby with Heretic, but its similarities end when you closely examine the gameplay loop.
Is that finished btw? havent heard a thing for a few years now
 

Hell Swarm

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My issue with a lot of modern boomer shooters is that they're very formulaic. It's very hard to remember a modern Boomer shooter that doesn't wear its inspirations on its sleeve with next to no tact. They're all very rigid.
They don't even use the inspiration well. They all play like Nu Doom or Pain killer depending on your frame of reference.
Zoomer shooters are full of arena encounters. No exploration, only mindless linear arena popamole. Zoomers are enjoy first personal platform jumping and switching weapons epilepsy LOL
We need Boomer shooters to evolve into actual campaigns with progression beyond what shade of projectile you and the enemies shoot.
The biggest problem of these games is that they aren't like old shooters at all and their inspirations obviously lie elsewhere. "Nu-doom-like with bad visuals" seems to be a very common variant, for example. The amount of games advertised as quake-inspired is reaching critical levels, yet everyone seems to forget that such a game should ideally be inspired by quake. Coincidentally, the rare title that actually makes an effort of being like the theoretical source of inspiration tends to be at least playable, if unspectacular.
It's bad graphics are quake inspired! One I played recently was literally a Quake reskin. Every enemy was just Quake but different visuals.
 

GamerCat_

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OP I feel like you have realised all the necessary preliminary steps to answer this.

The old games you name had things going on other than shooting. Rather important historic detail, DOOM was actually conceived of as something more like an adventure game before its premise was eventually refined down to being an "fps". The reason it seems to have so much character is because the game was built to lean on and place far more importance upon these elements earlier in its production. It's a simple game made of parts that were intended for a far more complex one. They would perhaps not have created such rich and nuanced background elements if from the start their intention was fps.

And though the other old titles don't share this exact production story, similar principles play out each time. At this point in the history of video games people weren't really interested in making fps just as fps. Each example you give, you can describe the premise. And I would say in each case that's because the nature of what the game is to a certain extent grew from that premise.

The difference between older and newer "fps" is that an old "fps" was using the form as a tool to realise a greater aesthetic vision. The experience of fighting through demonic Mars, of being the evil avenging revenant cowboy, the absurd cartoon action hero, the survivor in an alien jungle. These are all premises which are interesting before you learn that you'll be playing through them via a first person visual perspective and shooting things with a gun.

Interestingly, the last game in your list is Half Life. Half Life is interesting because it's a very self conscious fps. And it's obvious that while it was being made they realised something. That the incidental form of the "fps" genre was not actually inherently that useful for the kind of vision they wanted to realise. They wanted to make a cool science fiction disaster story about a place falling apart and becoming dangerous. Being able to shoot a gun was obviously handy at points, hazards you need to shoot are an essential part of the experience they had in mind. But there are also lots of other things that aren't shooting which will really bring this experience to life.

Half Life was not built around doing things to be a faithfully rendered "fps". It was built around what was necessary for the realisation of the idea of Half Life. Some elements of "fps" were useful for that. Some were not. Inorganic environmental mazes? Out. Minimalist no-drag story presentation? Out. Immediate action? Out. Naturalistic "level design"? In. Downtime with talking characters? In.

You can still swap spastically between 8 different weapons and hop around like an autist, but Half Life is clearly in the process of evolving from the form of something like Doom to something more like an adventure game that happens to be in first person. And I think that was very good. One can readily ask why any particular element of fps was necessary for realising the cool parts of a game like Half Life. And I think the game definitely could have been even less of a boomer shooter and worked just as well if not better. What if we only had one gun at a time? Or a STALKER/rpg style inventory? What if we had a conversation screen to talk to scientists? Any of this could have worked. My point is that Half Life was not essentially an "fps". It was selectively using elements of the form for its own purposes. And that in fact this is what all classic "fps", or "boomer shooters" were doing.

And that this stale and pointless era you complain of is a consequence of a thoughtless retroactive formalisation of existing works that took place in a cargo cultish manner. What you're witnessing when you play a self proclaimed "boomer shooter" that's a bunch of spazzy movement, empty abstract arenas, and no plot or greater purpose, is a cargo cult. And I can tell you where that cargo cult orginates.

ZQ4Yukj.jpg


The absolutely graceless, absurd, uncomprehending and horrified reaction of bald gen-xers and millennials toward the evolution of fps away from vestigial elements of form towards new ideas which were far better suited to expressing the idiosyncratic desires and visions of their creators. This is how we got the Boomer Shooter cult. Oldfags who prided themselves on being obsessed with old things pulling rank with the only thing they had over the younger gamers coming to displace them, their age and the fact they were there for the past, to bully and shame everyone and everything new and retroactively spin absurd self-serving and arbitrary theories on gamedesign and true hardcore fps solely to exclude new things and elevate old ones. Because they were there for the old things. And if the rules are written to say having been there for the old things makes you the coolest person ever, they win.

And young people are anxious, insecure, and looking for approval and direction, so these memes took.

Now 20 years after Halo, we're living through the consequences. A bunch of pointless abstract arenas in which you hop around in circles, switch guns, and shoot big things until they die. Are you proud of us Gen X? Did we do good? Is the finasteride treating your balls well today? Was it all worth it?

If Half Life was fps starting to evolve into something more like an adventure game, Halo was the one with the experience, self-awareness, and bravery to go all in. Like Doom it started as something else. Halo was going to be a strategy game. A 3d successor to Bungie's Myth games. But they experimented with unit possession and realised that was just so fun it should be the whole damn game (an aversion to just letting fun stuff happen was the great weakness of their older games).

Halo is very rich in intentional detail that's not explicitly placed right in front of you. It released alongside a very seriously written novel which dovetails beautifully with the themes and experience of playing the game itself. Bungie at this time were nerds, but they were also artfags. Giant ones by the standards of American gaming. Halo does not exist to succeed Quake. Again, it wasn't even an "fps" when first conceived. Halo exists to be Halo and to represent a few entertaining general video game concepts. Halo exists to show off reactive actors in combat (AI of both covenant and marines), it exists to show off and let you play with entertaining physics and reactive ballistic and explosive elements, this is all stuff Myth had already done. And Halo existed to be a vehicle for a rather serious science fiction story and universe, much like the one they already portrayed in their Marathon trilogy, but again, choosing to err on the side of fun and simplicity this time. I actually don't believe that Halo is any less complex thematically than Marathon, it's just far more content to let you miss everything that it's doing for the sake of your own good time.

A true appreciation and appraisal of Halo requires an appreciation of what its creators were trying to do. And even a fairly casual investigation should reveal that the historic fps genre was far from their minds all the way through this. They were building for purpose. The resemblance to "fps" let alone "boomer shooter" is slim, and arguably even incidental. First person happened to feel a bit better than third, they were weighing up both. And there are guns, sure. Really Halo is its own creative geneaology primarily drawing upon their own prior work.

With Marathon they tried to make their own vision work within fps. And it kind of works. With Halo, arguably for the first and last time, they built their game entirely to fit what they wanted to do as artists and pioneers in gaming technology.

They did that, and people called the game slow quake. And those "people" won. Their memes dominated the gamer consciousness. People are still somewhat ashamed of liking the elements that define Halo: Combat Evolved, and feel like they have a duty to defend carrying ten weapons at once, arenas full of enemies, hopping, quickly switching weapons, this stuff is good because it is hardcore first person shooter and we want to be hardcore first person shooter or else the older gamers will get upset and yell at me and call me stupid.

OP, how do you feel about Halo?

And how do you feel about your old favourite fps games? What is it you like about them? Is it the particulars of the "fps" form as they existed in that time and place? Or is it for the totality of the creative vision behind them, which was perhaps incidentally expressed through that old form of "fps" at the time?
 

Hell Swarm

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The absolutely graceless, absurd, uncomprehending and horrified reaction of bald gen-xers and millennials toward the evolution of fps away from vestigial elements of form towards new ideas which were far better suited to expressing the idiosyncratic desires and visions of their creators. This is how we got the Boomer Shooter cult. Oldfags who prided themselves on being obsessed with old things pulling rank with the only thing they had over the younger gamers coming to displace them, their age and the fact they were there for the past, to bully and shame everyone and everything new and retroactively spin absurd self-serving and arbitrary theories on gamedesign and true hardcore fps solely to exclude new things and elevate old ones. Because they were there for the old things. And if the rules are written to say having been there for the old things makes you the coolest person ever, they win.
Almost every boomer shooter includes the Doom Eternal dodge now. Classic FPS games don't have a quick dodge button, they expect you to position yourself and use your basic movement to stay out of trouble. Quick dodges are a modern mechanic that define the boomer shooter more and more since Eternal. So they're not willing to add new mechanics yet they derail the entire goddamn genre for a new mechanic boomers don't actually like? Great logic there.
Halo does not exist to succeed Quake.
Halo literally does exist to succeed Quake. The multiplayer was implemented on Quake's foundations. They have interviews and making of documentaries where they literally say they just copied what worked in Quake and implemented it into their game. The definitive feature of Halo was the multiplayer and it's what made it the killer app it became for the original Xbox. It's what is keeping the series alive today despite 343's awful single player. And all it's done is be Quake with slightly different mechanics.
And Halo existed to be a vehicle for a rather serious science fiction story and universe, much like the one they already portrayed in their Marathon trilogy, but again, choosing to err on the side of fun and simplicity this time. I actually don't believe that Halo is any less complex thematically than Marathon, it's just far more content to let you miss everything that it's doing for the sake of your own good time.

A true appreciation and appraisal of Halo requires an appreciation of what its creators were trying to do. And even a fairly casual investigation should reveal that the historic fps genre was far from their minds all the way through this. They were building for purpose.
Top fucking kek as the kids say. Halo wasn't designed as some high art sci fi project. It was designed as a fun game. Everything in Halo design wise was designed to be fun to shoot in the face. That's Bungies own words as well. The novels were a secondary thought and barely relevant at the time. It's not until Halo 2 and 3 where the novels start to become a core part of Bungie's design. Bungie's core focus was to make a fun game and once they discovered Warthogs were more fun to drive than order around Halo evolved from there. Once they were at that point they designed fun things to shoot and everything else falls in around it. The lore isn't deep or interesting until much later in the series because Halo was never intended to be any thing more than a fun game set on a ring world. The original game barely even touches on the covenant or what they want. I might be wrong but I don't recall the prophets being in the story at all.
Their memes dominated the gamer consciousness. People are still somewhat ashamed of liking the elements that define Halo: Combat Evolved, and feel like they have a duty to defend carrying ten weapons at once, arenas full of enemies, hopping, quickly switching weapons,
You mean like the noob combo you have to rely on to finish Legendary? Halo pre-dates the zoomer (Doom Eternal) hot swapping meme with the plasma pistol and BR/Pistol combo being the only viable way to finish Legendary campaigns. Halo has constant arenas full of enemies and forces you to stay in 1 place and fight off a horde (The 2nd level of Halo has you defending a forerunner location from enemy waves). Halo's literal design philosophy is saying here's a combat arena full of toys, figure out how to clear it out and get past. Regularly with progression locked behind the encounter. In every Halo game you're going to run into an arena within the first hour. 1 is the forerunner base, 2 has multiple defense points on the space station and the streets literally locks you in when you land, 3 has the final part of 117, Reach has Kat doing the door unlock bullshit. Halo has arenas out the ass. The only thing Halo doesn't have of your bitching is hopping. If we take Halo's load outs as a boomer shooter with we'd have 2 guns, 2 grenades, a melee weapon and if equipment is in play then you also have a possible deployable mine or sentry or armour lock to destroy ramming vehicles. If you want to push it further you can carry heavy weapons in later Halos so we're now up to a 7 weapon load out in Halo 3/reach. It may even be up to 9 because I can't remember if 3 lets you carry multiple grenade types or limits you to just 2. If you can carry 4 at once (I want to say you can) then Halo 3 gives you 9 weapons in your load out.
 
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Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
GamerCat_ Quality rant, but it didn't really have to turn into a Halo fan post. Not that I'm anti-Halo, but it detracts from the general message you're trying to convey.
 

GamerCat_

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The absolutely graceless, absurd, uncomprehending and horrified reaction of bald gen-xers and millennials toward the evolution of fps away from vestigial elements of form towards new ideas which were far better suited to expressing the idiosyncratic desires and visions of their creators. This is how we got the Boomer Shooter cult. Oldfags who prided themselves on being obsessed with old things pulling rank with the only thing they had over the younger gamers coming to displace them, their age and the fact they were there for the past, to bully and shame everyone and everything new and retroactively spin absurd self-serving and arbitrary theories on gamedesign and true hardcore fps solely to exclude new things and elevate old ones. Because they were there for the old things. And if the rules are written to say having been there for the old things makes you the coolest person ever, they win.
Almost every boomer shooter includes the Doom Eternal dodge now. Classic FPS games don't have a quick dodge button, they expect you to position yourself and use your basic movement to stay out of trouble. Quick dodges are a modern mechanic that define the boomer shooter more and more since Eternal. So they're not willing to add new mechanics yet they derail the entire goddamn genre for a new mechanic boomers don't actually like? Great logic there.
Why did you quote this piece of the post in particular to say this?

Anyway, yes, you can't stop progress. A new organic creative continuity is growing out of this contrived backward foundation, and once again your preferences have been found lacking. You lose twice. You will continue to lose forever.

Halo does not exist to succeed Quake.
Halo literally does exist to succeed Quake. The multiplayer was implemented on Quake's foundations. They have interviews and making of documentaries where they literally say they just copied what worked in Quake and implemented it into their game. The definitive feature of Halo was the multiplayer and it's what made it the killer app it became for the original Xbox. It's what is keeping the series alive today despite 343's awful single player. And all it's done is be Quake with slightly different mechanics.
If you actually care about quotes from the developers how do you feel about the fact they refer to multiplayer as "party mode" and expressed intentions to move beyond that as the primary multiplayer module as early as Halo 2? From Quake they took the idea of "put players and guns in a big arena room to bounce around killing each other". It was something they could already do with the parts they had made for the campaign to get more out of the game. It was obviously not their primary intention.

And Halo existed to be a vehicle for a rather serious science fiction story and universe, much like the one they already portrayed in their Marathon trilogy, but again, choosing to err on the side of fun and simplicity this time. I actually don't believe that Halo is any less complex thematically than Marathon, it's just far more content to let you miss everything that it's doing for the sake of your own good time.

A true appreciation and appraisal of Halo requires an appreciation of what its creators were trying to do. And even a fairly casual investigation should reveal that the historic fps genre was far from their minds all the way through this. They were building for purpose.
Top fucking kek as the kids say. Halo wasn't designed as some high art sci fi project. It was designed as a fun game. Everything in Halo design wise was designed to be fun to shoot in the face. That's Bungies own words as well. The novels were a secondary thought and barely relevant at the time. It's not until Halo 2 and 3 where the novels start to become a core part of Bungie's design. Bungie's core focus was to make a fun game and once they discovered Warthogs were more fun to drive than order around Halo evolved from there. Once they were at that point they designed fun things to shoot and everything else falls in around it. The lore isn't deep or interesting until much later in the series because Halo was never intended to be any thing more than a fun game set on a ring world. The original game barely even touches on the covenant or what they want. I might be wrong but I don't recall the prophets being in the story at all.
As I just said, "party mode". They saw the multiplayer deathmatch as something that would naturally be left behind by progress. If only they knew how much true hardcore gamers love bouncing around the arena clicking on each other.

You have to be a bit careful with things artists say about their work. For many reasons. In Halo's case, there are so many artists, working over such a long time, and they're perhaps getting a kick out of being a bit devious and coy with you. I especially get that impression from Joseph Staten whenever I hear him speak. Jason Jones too perhaps. Very interesting and ambitious guys who clearly enjoy talking themselves down and having fun when asked questions.

As for the lore, as we went over with Silent Hill, what you can see is not necessarily the extent of a thing. Halo CE alone is rather stunningly rich in implied details which are just allowed to sit in the background. Much of this I suspected for a long time and only saw confirmed as deliberate when I finally bothered to read 'Fall of Reach'. There's a lot going on in Halo that's lost on virtually everyone. Probably even most of the people who worked for Bungie at the time. My suspicion is that Nylund, Staten, and maybe some other guys were a kind of in the know inner circle of this thing. Halo is very good at doing a lot, without saying a lot. But it's there as early as CE if you have eyes to see.

Their memes dominated the gamer consciousness. People are still somewhat ashamed of liking the elements that define Halo: Combat Evolved, and feel like they have a duty to defend carrying ten weapons at once, arenas full of enemies, hopping, quickly switching weapons,
You mean like the noob combo you have to rely on to finish Legendary? Halo pre-dates the zoomer (Doom Eternal) hot swapping meme with the plasma pistol and BR/Pistol combo being the only viable way to finish Legendary campaigns. Halo has constant arenas full of enemies and forces you to stay in 1 place and fight off a horde (The 2nd level of Halo has you defending a forerunner location from enemy waves). Halo's literal design philosophy is saying here's a combat arena full of toys, figure out how to clear it out and get past. Regularly with progression locked behind the encounter. In every Halo game you're going to run into an arena within the first hour. 1 is the forerunner base, 2 has multiple defense points on the space station and the streets literally locks you in when you land, 3 has the final part of 117, Reach has Kat doing the door unlock bullshit. Halo has arenas out the ass. The only thing Halo doesn't have of your bitching is hopping. If we take Halo's load outs as a boomer shooter with we'd have 2 guns, 2 grenades, a melee weapon and if equipment is in play then you also have a possible deployable mine or sentry or armour lock to destroy ramming vehicles. If you want to push it further you can carry heavy weapons in later Halos so we're now up to a 7 weapon load out in Halo 3/reach. It may even be up to 9 because I can't remember if 3 lets you carry multiple grenade types or limits you to just 2. If you can carry 4 at once (I want to say you can) then Halo 3 gives you 9 weapons in your load out.
You don't even know what you're saying. You're just reacting, impulsively throwing contrary thoughts at me with no regard for how it forms a coherent opposing point of view. Do I scare you that much by now?

What do you mean about the noob combo? Is this intended to be a charge of hypocrisy? Or that I should be happy with the state of "fps" because they're all actually just like Halo? You can draw comparisons between any two things, but these similarities feel very semantic. I don't believe that even you are dumb enough to believe that Doom: Eternal and Halo: Combat Evolved are similar games (or do I?). Well you're either being very petty or very stupid right now. Either way, my answer can be very simple. No. These things are not similar. I enjoy one and not the other.

You can call sequences of Halo "arenas", I don't care. I'm willing to grant you that, (though try defending against the charge that virtually all video games are built around "arenas" and you'll be in for a very serious struggle) from here I can simply say that I like Halo arenas for their distinct characteristics and those of Halo in general and not other video game arenas, which I do not believe have comparable appeal.

Halo's forerunner structure is a big open elevated piece of concrete surrounded by smaller auxiliary structures, trees, and rocks. It is a very unique location which makes sense and says something about the world and where we're at in the story which can be read from the greater context of the situation. We've landed on a strange artificial world, and it has these colossal structures on it which look strangely different to the design tendencies of other alien things we've seen so far. One can make a lot of this, or more likely very little because it's so easy to get caught up in the severity of the situation. We've just found fellow survivors from our downed ship and we're under attack. They'll be in serious trouble without us.

Depending on your selected difficulty and how you play the marines will do different things and this whole sequence can play out quite differently player to player and approach to approach. On higher difficulties the marines retreat to the top of the structure immediately, to better preserve themselves and give you minimal but sustained support from above. While on lower ones they stay below to help you fight. Aliens will swoop in from the sky in dropships which provide cover fire as they unload and close in on you and the central structure (and the crewmen you're trying to save, if you care that is). You can hide on the structure, or you can rush down and clear each dropped group of aliens. Or you can get lost and wander around and react poorly and the aliens will kill the crewmen because you suck.

My point being, this is an organically integrated sequence in the greater Halo narrative experience which is alive with its own details top to bottom. We can call it an "arena" since time has to pass before you move on (not actually, you can beat this level without a warthog, also I don't know anybody who has tried to leave the crewmen and aliens fighting behind and been frustrated by the semi-gated route ahead, why would you try to leave?), we can call it an arena since it has limits of a kind (you cannot walk off infinitely in each direction), we can call it an arena because it has things in fixed places within it, but of course this is not useful is it?

I like the experience offered by this forerunner site crewman defense sequence and I do not like other things called "arenas" in "first person shooters". You can say that I am a blinded hypocrite over this. I can call you retarded for that. There's no accounting for taste and we can all ultimately call things what we like.

And that you devoted so many words to "actually John Halo carries X weapons at a time" is embarrassing. That you would think that's a mark against anything I'm saying shows that you can barely understand me but are very upset and determined to get the better of me somehow. You don't know what this discussion is but you want to get something that feels like a win. I'd feel sorry for you if you didn't offend me.

GamerCat_ Quality rant, but it didn't really have to turn into a Halo fan post. Not that I'm anti-Halo, but it detracts from the general message you're trying to convey.
It felt like the sharpest way to make the point.
 

Hell Swarm

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665
You waffle on saying absolutely nothing child. You have watched too many 10 hour youtube essays and can't get to the point or really make a point. And the ones you do are easily dismantled with even basic knowledge of the game. You're worse than Evangelion fans and they're an exceptional bunch of autists.




Here's some dudes fighting a scarab. More entertaining than your inane ramblings.
 

Lemming42

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OP, how do you feel about Halo?

And how do you feel about your old favourite fps games? What is it you like about them? Is it the particulars of the "fps" form as they existed in that time and place? Or is it for the totality of the creative vision behind them, which was perhaps incidentally expressed through that old form of "fps" at the time?
I think Halo is okay. That's pretty much the entirety of my opinion on it, which I know is an anticlimax after your big post about it. The story never grabbed me but the games, at least Halo 1 and 2 (nothing against 3, I just barely remember it) were fun. I do think the first Halo is an interesting moment in the history of the FPS genre, sitting between Half-Life and Call of Duty both chronologically and in terms of design philosophy.

There's definitely a lot of truth in the idea that newer games are consciously trying to be "FPS games" and fit themselves into an established genre with defined norms, whereas older games were often trying to convey a unique scenario or idea above all else and just did whatever was necessary to do that, regardless of whether or not it fit with any preconceived ideas about what a genre "should" be. The development of Doom is really interesting in that I still have no idea why they cut down so much of what they planned to include; having four protagonists to choose from with different strengths would have been really cool (and you can see this in Doom Delta, which reintroduces them). I've heard Wolfenstein 3D was originally meant to be somewhat more like the original Castle Wolfenstein too, with stealth routes through levels.

You almost get the feeling in some of those older games that the devs were straining against the limitations of being an "action" game and trying to find ways around it (Half-Life being the most obvious example), while the new wave of boomer shooters is instead embracing those same limitations, with typically worse results.
The difference between older and newer "fps" is that an old "fps" was using the form as a tool to realise a greater aesthetic vision. The experience of fighting through demonic Mars, of being the evil avenging revenant cowboy, the absurd cartoon action hero, the survivor in an alien jungle. These are all premises which are interesting before you learn that you'll be playing through them via a first person visual perspective and shooting things with a gun.
Definitely, that's what I was driving at in my first post - the games are conceptually interesting even when separated from the gameplay itself, to the point where when you think back to them, you'll often remember creative, aesthetic, or thematic elements first.

Heretic's probably my favourite example because it somehow manages to actually feel like a dark fantasy novel, despite having no dialogue, no real characters, no coherent locations, and a fairly straightforward plot. In terms of gameplay it's pretty much objectively worse than Doom, but people are still into it thirty years later, and I think that has to be because Raven had some incredible skill at creating evocative dark fantasy visuals and themes.
 

NecroLord

Dumbfuck!
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Heretic's probably my favourite example because it somehow manages to actually feel like a dark fantasy novel, despite having no dialogue, no real characters, no coherent locations, and a fairly straightforward plot. In terms of gameplay it's pretty much objectively worse than Doom, but people are still into it thirty years later, and I think that has to be because Raven had some incredible skill at creating evocative dark fantasy visuals and themes.
Indeed.
Hexen: Beyond Heretic is also a great dark fantasy game.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
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Messages
56,644
The story in those classic shooters was hardly relevant, but everything else about them was pretty damn serious, and seriousness is what seems to be missing in a lot of those modern "retro" boomer shooters.

Games like Doom, Hexen, Duke3D or Quake weren't intended to be jokes, which is how a lot of those modern nu-devs seem to be treating this genre. When they were released not only were they technological marvels but every single element besides the scant bits of writing recieved the utmost attention. The art, the tone and atmosphere, the sounds, the music, the gameplay, the map design etc, it was all as state of the art as it gets. When a new shooter hit the market it was a major event. Just because they played it off for laughs when it came to the "story" doesn't mean the rest of the game was intended to be retarded too.

A lot of those boomer shooters seem to be relatively low effort by comparison and it feels the devs underestimated just how much talent and work went into making the older classics. There's also this tendency to think it is "enough" to simply retread the old ground (which most of those nu-shooters can barely even do), not understanding that to truly recreate the experience of those classic shooters you would have to push the envelop in the same way those games were doing back then. If you wanted to really create a true classic you would have to put yourself in the same position of any dev that back in the day was thinking of going up against games like Quake or Duke3D. If you can't do that there really shouldn't be any reason for you to even bother.
 

NecroLord

Dumbfuck!
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The story in those classic shooters was hardly relevant, but everything else about them was pretty damn serious, and seriousness is what seems to be missing in a lot of those modern "retro" boomer shooters.

Games like Doom, Hexen, Duke3D or Quake weren't intended to be jokes, which is how a lot of those modern nu-devs seem to be treating this genre. When they were released not only were they technological marvels but every single element besides the scant bits of writing recieved the utmost attention. The art, the tone and atmosphere, the sounds, the music, the gameplay, the map design etc, it was all as state of the art as it gets. When a new shooter hit the market it was a major event. Just because they played it off for laughs when it came to the "story" doesn't mean the rest of the game was intended to be retarded too.

A lot of those boomer shooters seem to be relatively low effort by comparison and it feels the devs underestimated just how much talent and work went into making the older classics. There's also this tendency to think it is "enough" to simply retread the old ground (which most of those nu-shooters can barely even do), not understanding that to truly recreate the experience of those classic shooters you would have to push the envelop in the same way those games were doing back then. If you wanted to really create a true classic you would have to put yourself in the same position of any dev that back in the day was thinking of going up against games like Quake or Duke3D. If you can't do that there really shouldn't be any reason for you to even bother.
Games like Blood and Shadow Warrior can be ball bustingly hard.
This is just too much for the average zoomer to deal with.
 
Joined
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By the end of the build engine games you had this mess of supposedly hard games trying to one up one another with exaggerated difficulty, while Shadow Warrior was fun it suffered a lot from this.

Old Shooters had no story, let's be real. But they had some pretty hardcore gameplay. And Gameplay was everything they had, however, gameplay is also what makes games fun. There's a reason why Doom 1992 is still one of the best games ever.

I tried playing Amid Evil and managed to complete like 4 chapters or so, and it felt like all enemies were the same, all weapons were just variations of the same deal, and that all maps were big and confusing for the sake of it. They didn't get why those games were good.
 

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