Anime The mistake a lot of modern boomer shooters make

[Lyric Suite]

No it fucking doesn't. The colors are animu are you fucking blind?

It's that diginal mobile pastel look that has infected all games and ruined most of them. Compare Stormgate to original Starcradt. Original Starcraft was colorful too, but surely you can see they are not the same?

 

[HeatEXTEND]

Space Hulk: Deathwing may have not been the greatest but damn if they didn't nail the atmosphere.

That game oozes 40K, also love the luggish terminator movement and aim, too bad about the horde gameplay that just wasn't done well. Streumon are truly the kings of gaming blueballs (E.Y.E. is fantastic as is imo but just imagine.....it could have been a fullblown Deus Ex revival....it's all right there ).

You play Fire Warrior?

 

[Lyric Suite]

Fire Warriror. I remember spending an entire afternoon try to make that game run on modern Windows. I even managed to fix widescreen with proper UI scaling. Was so proud of myself than i tried playing the game lmao.

 

[Ash]

Spoiler

Chainsaw swords, badass helmets, chunky guns = cool.

Uniform distribution of bright colors, mid-effort detail, omega symbols and other lame insignias, disproportionate/oversized pauldrons and such = GAY.

Terrible waste but easy to ignore when there was endless cooler content to consume back then.

 

[Hell Swarm]

No it fucking doesn't. The colors are animu are you fucking blind?

It's that diginal mobile pastel look that has infected all games and ruined most of them. Compare Stormgate to original Starcradt. Original Starcraft was colorful too, but surely you can see they are not the same?

Exact same colour scheme. Even has one with a visor.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

3rd edition is when 40k loses all it's colour.

Bullshit. You ever opened one of those? They are full of cool gothic black and white pieces. Point being 40K did both very well, clear expressive colour pieces and messy murky black/white space-gothic stuff. Don't pretend it was one and then the other.
Then it got homogenized into what GW shits out today.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Uniform distribution of bright colors, mid-effort detail, omega symbols and other lame insignias, disproportionate/oversized pauldrons and such = GAY.

I'm pretty sure the uniform color is there because that's supposed to be a medieval armor except in space.

Oversized or disproportionate body portions was probably there just because it made it easier to paint the minature. Giant pauldrons in particular were likely made like that so people could more easily paint an insigna in them.

 

[Ash]

Don't care the reason, no matter how sensible. It's lame and off-putting, unlike the endless space marine/cyberpunk criminal hacker/steroid-laden commando/ninja shadow killer manly alternatives back then.

Sad that's all ancient history now. Can't even think of ANY modern media with cool masculine badass character designs. Key word being "cool". That's also a mistake a lot of modern "boomer shooters" make.

 

[Hell Swarm]

3rd edition is when 40k loses all it's colour.

Bullshit. You ever opened one of those? They are full of cool gothic black and white pieces. Point being 40K did both very well, clear expressive colour pieces and messy murky black/white space-gothic stuff. Don't pretend it was one and then the other.
Then it got homogenized into what GW shits out today.

Most of that artwork comes from 2nd ed where they would ask their local friends to draw stuff for white dwarf and repurposed it into rulebook art work. It's 3rd edition 40k where it goes from a small indie company to a global brand with on staff artists and a design bible.

 

[JoacoN]

Talking about boomer shooters, I think that something that still needs to need to be expanded or evolved is the hub based / small open world style.
There's still a lot of things you could do it with it, from making something more metroidvania like, to a heavier focus in platforming or puzzle solving, to having a huge focus on verticality and exploring tall buildings.
Im trying to do something like that with my game, but the focus is more so in pure exploration and quest solving rather than combat, your gun is more like a tool a lot of the time.

 

[Hell Swarm]

heavier focus in platforming

As much as I would enjoy a FPS platformer most people don't have the spacial awareness for it. There's a reason they removed jumping sections from basically every FPS now.

 

[JoacoN]

heavier focus in platforming

As much as I would enjoy a FPS platformer most people don't have the spacial awareness for it. There's a reason they removed jumping sections from basically every FPS now.

Ye that sucks, I always like platforming sections in fps games because they allow to control the pacing better by creating breaks between combat and also offer more verticality in the level design.

 

[Hell Swarm]

heavier focus in platforming

As much as I would enjoy a FPS platformer most people don't have the spacial awareness for it. There's a reason they removed jumping sections from basically every FPS now.

Ye that sucks, I always like platforming sections in fps games because they allow to control the pacing better by creating breaks between combat and also offer more verticality in the level design.

They're good when they have the freedom. Doom Eternal's jumping sucked dick.

 

[Harthwain]

heavier focus in platforming

As much as I would enjoy a FPS platformer most people don't have the spacial awareness for it. There's a reason they removed jumping sections from basically every FPS now.

Ye that sucks, I always like platforming sections in fps games because they allow to control the pacing better by creating breaks between combat and also offer more verticality in the level design.

I never liked jumping in games (outside of pure platformers, such as Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver series, Assassins' Creed games and Remnant 2).

 

[Ash]

I never liked jumping in games (outside of pure platformers, such as Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver series, Assassins' Creed games and Remnant 2).

None of those are pure platformers lol. They're action-adventure. And calling Assassin's Creed's automated shite "platforming" is a massive stretch. Soul Reaver is mid. No wonder you don't appreciate platforming lol.

Platforming is an absolute must for true 3D level design, as well as combat depth. Very, very few action games fare well in its absence unless they heavily compensate in other regards, e.g Survival Horrors lean into puzzles, resource & inventory management, among other things. The removal of platforming in action games post-decline is probably the number 1 measurably obvious decline. No longer can you jump over walls and other obstacles. No longer must you watch your footing during combat. No longer can secret areas be creatively hidden. No longer is there any airborne combat (e.g jump over melee enemies or low elevation projectiles). No longer is there complex verticality (AKA the third dimension) in level design and gameplay. Just massive decline.

So is it you don't like any jumping whatsoever, or is it you don't like gauntlets of jumping challenges you may have encountered in the past, like those in Half-Life? It's probably the latter, and that would be especially understandable as a lot of it is quite shite. Quicksaving combined with instant death pitfalls with horrible ice skate imprecise movement physics at the core of it. Not to mention limited air control. I still enjoy it as they have cool setups and add meaningful variety, but they're not exactly the epitome of fun nor platforming excellence. That would have to go to Mario Bros 3 (1989) & Dying Light (2015) for 2D and 3D respectively.

 

[Kabas]

Platforming is an absolute must for true 3D level design, as well as combat depth. Very, very few action games fare well in its absence unless they heavily compensate in other regards, e.g Survival Horrors lean into puzzles, resource & inventory management, among other things. The removal of platforming in action games post-decline is probably the number 1 measurably obvious decline. No longer can you jump over walls and other obstacles. No longer must you watch your footing during combat. No longer can secret areas be creatively hidden. No longer is there any airborne combat (e.g jump over melee enemies or low elevation projectiles). No longer is there complex verticality in level design. Just massive decline.

I am suddenly reminded of the force jump from Dark Forces 2. Literally the best force power you could level up due to how many places and alternative routes it opens up to you.

 

[NecroLord]

Platforming is an absolute must for true 3D level design, as well as combat depth. Very, very few action games fare well in its absence unless they heavily compensate in other regards, e.g Survival Horrors lean into puzzles, resource & inventory management, among other things. The removal of platforming in action games post-decline is probably the number 1 measurably obvious decline. No longer can you jump over walls and other obstacles. No longer must you watch your footing during combat. No longer can secret areas be creatively hidden. No longer is there any airborne combat (e.g jump over melee enemies or low elevation projectiles). No longer is there complex verticality in level design. Just massive decline.

I am suddenly reminded of the force jump from Dark Forces 2. Literally the best force power you could level up due to how many places and alternative routes it opens up to you.

Yeah.
I always have 3 force points put into it.

 

[Harthwain]

None of those are pure platformers lol. They're action-adventure. And calling Assassin's Creed's automated shite "platforming" is a massive stretch. Soul Reaver is mid. No wonder you don't appreciate platforming lol.

To clarify: I consider Soul Reaver series specifically to be heavy on platforming. The rest (Assassin's Creed and Remnant 2) I mentioned as "games in which I don't mind jumping, because it is done effortlessly". I probably should've written that better though.

So is it you don't like any jumping whatsoever, or is it you don't like gauntlets of jumping challenges you may have encountered in the past, like those in Half-Life? It's probably the latter, and that would be especially understandable as a lot of it is quite shite. Quicksaving combined with instant death pitfalls with horrible ice skate imprecise movement physics at the core of it. Not to mention limited air control.

Gauntlets of jumping challenges is the main reason. Especially when you don't feel like you have a good control over your character (as you said) or/and when I can't tell if I can make the jump in the first place.

 

[Hell Swarm]

Steam has an FPS sale on this week.

 

[JoacoN]

Gauntlets of jumping challenges is the main reason. Especially when you don't feel like you have a good control over your character (as you said) or/and when I can't tell if I can make the jump in the first place.

I think that's mostly because a lot of FPS games have problems with making good movement systems in the first place, they only think about "make movement for the player to shoot and dodge bullets, and also make it realistic", but don't think about exploration, searching for secrets, platforming, clever usage of movement to get an advantage over your enemies, solving puzzles, etc...

There's a reason why so many FPS games use doom and quake as a base, they are games that not only have great shooting, but also awesome movement systems which can be used for dozens of situations with wildly different level designs and still work without issue.

Meanwhile you take a Call of Duty or another "realistic" shooter game and suddenly the level design becomes incredibly limiting because the movement systems aren't made to be flexible and fit different situations, they are just made for shooting and moving between cover, so trying to add platforming sections (if they even let you jump more than 20cm.) is almost impossible without it feeling sluggish.

This issue can also happen with certain action games that try to be more grounded (like Dark Souls 1), were the platforming feels awful because it's all automated and doesn't react half the time, and still being limited even if it's automated because the devs know that watching your character doing the action of jumping isn't nowhere near fun as letting the players do it themselves.

 

[MasterofThunder]

I feel like I had to defend Halo's honor by making an account and stating the obvious. Halo was NOT responsible for the decline of the first-person shooter genre, even if it did, it did no more damage than the pile of shit the autists in this thread have been parading as if it were a masterpiece: Half-Life.

Half-Life is the game we should point to for starting the industry-wide trend of "cinematization" and casualization. Even the likes of Lilura pointed this out in "her" blog, about how Half-Life began the gradual decline of first-person shooters into Hollywood-inspired storyfaggotry. You know what doesn't happen in Doom, Quake and even Halo?. Unskippable cutscenes that play out during live gameplay. You know what most gaymers complain about today?, unskippable cutscenes that play out during live gameplay. It all comes back to Half-Life. And nothing about that game is even remotely noteworthy aside from that. The gunplay is decent if not average, the graphics are poor even by 1998 standards, and the game lacks ANY replayability because of it's scripted nature. Some mods allow you to select chapters/sequences of the story, but these could hardly be considered replayable out-of-context. Meanwhile you can play through any level in Doom, Quake and Halo and have a good time, because they don't tie you down to a strictly linear sequence of events.

Halo is not a perfect game by any means though. It suffers because the developers were hard pressed for time, and had to conjure up a game that played well on a controller it just eight months. But during that time, by an absolute miracle, they crafted an engine that has stood the test of time, and inspired the control scheme of every console shooter that was to come. By influence alone, Halo utterly OBLITERATES Half-Life. The only thing Half-Life did was lower the standards of gameplay in service of narrative, which is the antithesis of the entire medium. Sure you can say it works well in an RPG, but that's not the genre we're discussing here.

Had Halo been given the benefit of the PC as it's primary platform, and a proper development cycle, Lord only knows the masterpiece that could have come of it. But even as it is, it's a great game that manages to shine despite it's shortcomings, and it's gameplay was gradually perfected before reaching it's zenith in Halo 3.

 

[Ash]

Half-Life is still a fairly good (singleplayer) game despite the relatively linear, cinematic and scripted nature. 'Run Shoot Think Live' was its tagline and it is appropriate. It was decline but it still engaged the player. Halo singleplayer is shit, boring and braindead by comparison. Sure, Half-Life lowered gameplay standards somewhat to provide a story and immersive rollercoaster. What did Halo gain from its terrible sacrifice of gameplay? Nothing. Also don't use an alt, post with your main. Coward!

Control scheme? Lol play more games, Halo did fuck all in that regard. Alien Ressurection, Duke Nukem Zero Hour, Turok 1 & 2, Red Faction, and many more; numerous games came before with the same or similar controls, and...it was simple natural progression. It's not even worth mentioning. As usual people that didn't really play games of the time make WILD claims in regards to gaming history. Next you will say Goldeneye was "revolutionary" too. It was revolutionary...for those that only played 2 FPS growing up and ignored all the fantastic, far superior games out there.

Who gives a shit about influence? Shit game inspires endless other shit games, wow how impressive.

But was it responsible for all the decline? Absolutely not. Every FPS in 2001 is decline from 90s standards, or otherwise multiplayer-centric which is in itself decline:



Yeah no, I am not playing any of these shit games, thanks. RTCW is the best one here which is an 8/10 at absolute best.
Not sure why Unreal Tournament is in this list. That was 1999.

 

[MasterofThunder]

Half-Life is still a good (singleplayer) game despite the relatively linear and scripted nature. Halo is shit, boring and braindead by comparison.

Control scheme? Lol play more games, Halo did fuck all in that regard. Alien Ressurection, Duke Nukem Zero Hour, Red Faction, numerous games came before with the same or similar controls, and...it was simple natural progression. It's not even worth mentioning.
Who gives a shit about influence? Shit game inspires endless other shit games, wow how impressive.

But was it responsible for all the decline? Absolutely not. Every game here is decline from 90s standards, or otherwise multiplayer-centric which is in itself decline:

If Halo is boring, Half-Life must be torment. What does Half-Life offer from a 'gameplay' perspective that Halo doesn't?. Is the shooting better?, no. Are the guns more unique and varied?, no. Are the enemies unique and memorable?, no. Is the level design better?, debatable. Halo's second half suffers from a reuse of assets, which again is the fault of it's development crunch and lack of time. But even as is, Halo's levels are more varied in terrms of visuals and stick with you FAR more than anything in Half-Life. More often than not if you asked a gamer what he remembers most about Half-Life, it's either the ridiculously long introduction tram ride, the resonance cascade, the helicopter sequence in the canyon, or Xen. And nobody likes Xen. You ask a gamer who's played Halo what he remembers, and he will give you a detailed list of all the cool places he remembers playing through, and the setpieces that stuck with him. Especially in later sequels.

Half-Life is a bad story told poorly. Halo offers a Sci-Fi universe of intrigue and depth that was elaborated on in further sequels and novels. It didn't need "lore terminals" like Marathon for players to read, everything was just plain interesting at face value, let alone the background lore. Even if you were interested in Half-Life for it's half-baked "lore", there is no expansive multimedia effort to sink your teeth into. It's hack writer didn't even keep things consistent between 'games', let alone a single book. Half-Life 2 outright retcons the first game by injecting in characters that were never there, and a retarded alien army that serves as more bland, forgettable fodder to mow down. As cartoonish as Halo CE was at times, every enemy stands out and is fun to fight. They have personality. The enemies in Half-Life, while somewhat interesting visually, don't have any personality. Best it has are the HECU marines with their radio chatter. And as Halo continued to improve and iterate on itself, Half-Life stagnated and is now a completely dead franchise that only aging gen x-ers and millennials remember ironically. "Where is Half-Life 3" is more of a joke now than it ever was. Nobody actually wants it, because nobody cares anymore. Halo on the other hand, despite the abuse it's suffered, still has a diehard following that will happily play and discuss the classics for years to come.

 

[Saldrone]

Halo was NOT responsible for the decline of the first-person shooter genre

It did however popularize the limited loadout mechanic in FPS games leading to a clumsy and limited approach in encounter design. Compare that to Half-Life with it's numerous ways to approach them by it's flexible and volatile selection of weapons.

Halo utterly OBLITERATES Half-Life.

Lol, lmao even

 

[Ash]

Halo was NOT responsible for the decline of the first-person shooter genre

It did however popularize the limited loadout mechanic in FPS games leading to a clumsy and limited approach in encounter design. Compare that to Half-Life with it's numerous ways to approach them by it's flexible and volatile selection of weapons.

And regen health.

Halo singleplayer is utter trite, somebody needs to explain what they actually see in it, but when they do they rant about technology and influence (irrelevant and often false claims anyway, see above), not the godawful game design. The multiplayer is far more notable, things like regen health and weapon limits actually work there for optimal balancing in team deathmatch scenarios. But it really can't be blamed for the decline of singleplayer. Everyone sucked. Obsessed with realism. Graphics whoring. Laughable storytelling never to touch upon 90s masters even in that regard e.g Half-Life and System Shock 2. Streamlining. Endless braindead military shooters. It all sucked. I have far more respect for third person shooters of the 2000s (well, until 2007 and the braindead cover shooter becoming the standard). FPS' reign belongs to the glorious 90s. I put many hours into 2000s-era shooters when I was younger and regret that quite a lot, but if nothing else it taught me what garbage game design is.