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Kruyurk

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Even if a game allows to make a "single-person party", the default way to play is with companions, so the game genre does not depend on the possibility to solo. If you are so antisocial that you even want to be left alone in a party-based RPG, it is time to seek help friendship on the Codex.
 

Atlantico

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Even if a game allows to make a "single-person party", the default way to play is with companions, so the game genre does not depend on the possibility to solo.

If there is no gameplay difference between a game where "party members" represent abilities and another game where one character has multiple abilities, there's no point in insisting the former is a genre or subgenre of the latter.

Looking at it in historical context, the ostensible distinction means even less, because the artifice of the "party" in games such as EotB and DM only existed because that was the expectation for RPGs at the time. The idea that a single character was multiclassing and becoming basically a god-tier typhoon of destruction and death, was simply not on the table. It is now, but it didn't change anything fundamental, it only removed an artifice.
 

Kliwer

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These absurd considerations remind me of my worst years in the department of sociology. I remember those idiotic considerations about the definitions and meanings of words. Meanings that are obvious to anyone with one ounce of a healthy brain in their head - except for “scholars” of sociology or some other modern pseudo-science. This was, frankly, the main reason I eventually switched to classical humanities (history and literature). Because every normal linguist (as opposed to a sociologist or political scientist) understands that words have their context.


Most words are not 0-1. Words usually denote the full spectrum of phenomena in the real world. So we can label two similar things with "x", but one of those things is more "x" than the other.


Literature example: "Moby Dick or the Whale". There is an entire chapter on the question: is a whale a fish? The author/narrator of course states that (in his opinion) the whale is definitely a fish - regardless of the vague definitions of naturalists. And - of course - from a certain perspective, a whale (or dolphin) is a fish. From a different perspective, it is a mammal. The same is with "blobber".


There are games that are 100% "blobber". Example: Might&Magic 6-7. In these games, we must have a team of 4 (even if someone dies, he is still a member of the team). We can never separate them. M&M 8 is also generally a "blobber", although to a lesser extent. The assumptions of the game are that we play as a team in the first person, but (if we persist in) we can play as one character. Realms of Arkania is even less "blobber" - there we can split the team. A phenomenon bordering on "blobber" and some other genre is the Gates of Skeldal (Brány Skeldalu). We run the team in first person most of the time. But we can separate our party members (and even see our characters in the game environment), even during battles (by the way, an extremely interesting and unique system - it's a pity that the game mechanics are too primitive to take full advantage of this innovation).

So all these games are "blobbers" - but some more, some less.


Let's add that Skyrim (and other games where we control only one character) is not a "blobber". One could, of course, explain it, but such an explanation is only needed by a complete idiot.

Let's just say that we have one health pool in Skyrim. Regardless of whether we have 1 hp or 100 hp, our abilities do not change. In "blobber", each set of skills (ie "character") has a separate pool of health points. When the pool of health points called a "mage" runs out, we cannot cast spells. Easy.


I can imagine a game that would have all the characteristics of a "blobber" - and yet not be a "blobber". Take Grimoire as an example. Suppose in this game we are not controlling an "adventurer team" but a giant robot with eight autonomous turrets.

One turret would cast spells ("mage turret"). Another would be armed with blades and attack at close range ("turret-warrior"). Each would have a separate pool of health points - destroying the "mage turret" would prevent us from firing rockets/fireballs. Each turret could be armed with components ("equipment"). Each would have its own initiative (because "turret-mage" heats up longer than "turret-warrior").

We would have a game that is played like a "blobber". But it wouldn't be a blobber. This is because the mechanics of any game are always arbitrary and abstract - it also matters what the numbers represent.

BTW - this is one of the reasons why I find it difficult to enjoy games with extremely primitive graphics (such as M&M 1 where our characters are only represented by words/numbers; the simple fact of adding portraits in M&M 3 dramatically increases my immersion.)
 

Atlantico

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These absurd considerations remind me of my worst years in the department of sociology.

The fact that you have to start out with the premise that "blobber" is something that exists, shows you fit quite well in the department of sociology.

In real science you'd have to demonstrate that something actually exists before writing a wall of text defending the axiom.

Meanings that are obvious to anyone with one ounce of a healthy brain in their head

Oh snap, you fell into the most basic logical fallacy; face in shit. The term is meaningless, that it has meaning in your mind doesn't give it actual meaning. You must have been one of the stupider people in the sociology department (and they don't average high IQs there btw)

Your entire diatribe rests on the assumption that whatever "blobber" means to you, has any meaning to anyone else — let alone the same meaning.

It's the stupidest thing I've read yet in this thread, and Dextard has posted at least twice.
 

Torus

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The most important thing is if it's a useful word. And it is, because if you check out the "dungeon crawler" tag on steam you will get a vast list that includes slay the spire and enter the gungeon. Obviously there's a need for a more specific term. Which can be anything, but it should also be short.
 

Kliwer

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Some words are not sharp.
We know, for example, that there is "Renaissance painting" and "Baroque painting". But assigning a specific work to one or the other category can be problematic. Which does not mean that the terms "renaissance" and "baroque" are unnecessary, empty or devoid of referents.

Currently, all European culture is infected with the German philosophy of science. The Germans, of course, came up with the idea some time ago that the humanities (or more broadly - any considerations about culture and intellectual products of man) should be practiced on the model of exact sciences. This is absurd, of course, but widely accepted today.
This is, I believe, the source of Your spiritual anguish that you feel when you hear the word "blobber". How terrible it is! On the one hand, something is a "blobber", on the other hand, it is not! Something has some "blobber" characteristics, but not entirely so! What a mess!
 

Contagium

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This guy is a blobber:

Screenshot_20220204-084220-582.png
 

Bastardchops

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Top view or not, blob ia a blob.

Exactly. thank you!

"Blobber" is a terrible term and incredibly bad and unhelpful.

So is "gridder" for that matter and any other homebrew "witticisms".

first person
- you control at least two characters, single character is not a blobber
- your multiple characters don't move individually but as a blob
- grid movement is common but not required (later M&Ms and Wiz8 are also blobbers but have free movement)

Basically a first person RPG where you move as if you controlled a single character directly, but you actually control a party of multiple characters.

What happens if you solo a "blobber" with one character, what is it then? Why not just call it a Dungeon Master-like game?

So you've got a problem with a clearly distinct term because you insist on being a fucking pedant. Amazing it took you a whole thread to grasp the concept.
 

Bastardchops

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Gold Box games are also dungeon crawlers.
Diablo is a dungeon crawler.
Ultima Underworld and Arx Fatalis are dungeon crawlers.
Knights of the Chalice is a dungeon crawler.

The important difference is how you crawl the dungeons in those games.

In blobbers, you crawl them as a blob.
Same argument applies with blobbers when you point out just saying "you move as a blob" equally applies to games like Lords of Xulima and nearly the entire jrpg genre.
If you have to preface it with "first person blobber", then you can do the same thing with dungeon crawlers. And people outside of this site will actually know what you're referring to.
If you don't want to use blobber don't use it. Quit bitching about the fact other people commonly use and understand it.
 

Atlantico

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So you've got a problem with a clearly distinct term because you insist on being a fucking pedant. Amazing it took you a whole thread to grasp the concept.

Criticism of being "pedantic" when it comes to genres and categorization, is massively stupid. That's what genres and categorization are. Pedantic.

But this thread has demonstrated that there is no agreed upon definition of "blobber", it's just what each individual thinks it is. Whatever you think a "blobber" is, another poster here will disagree with, even though he's equally convinced that a "blobber" is a thing that exists.

You idiots keep proving that it doesn't exist, has no hard definition and is ultimately redundant. If you only read each other's posts.
 

Kliwer

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Criticism of being "pedantic" when it comes to genres and categorization, is massively stupid. That's what genres and categorization are. Pedantic.

But this thread has demonstrated that there is no agreed upon definition of "blobber", it's just what each individual thinks it is. Whatever you think a "blobber" is, another poster here will disagree with, even though he's equally convinced that a "blobber" is a thing that exists.

You idiots keep proving that it doesn't exist, has no hard definition and is ultimately redundant. If you only read each other's posts.

The most important thing is that a certain group of people uses this word successfully in communication. Sometimes there are inevitable misunderstandings. Sometimes the word is used in questionable context. But it works. Meets the principles of linguistic ergonomics. It is precise enough (to be understood) and wide enough (to be used in many contexts).
 

Atlantico

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This is, I believe, the source of Your spiritual anguish that you feel when you hear the word "blobber". How terrible it is! On the one hand, something is a "blobber", on the other hand, it is not! Something has some "blobber" characteristics, but not entirely so! What a mess!

Is it a terrible word? We could just as well be discussing "gridder", which is an equally pointless and idiotic word. If you think there is something terrible about the word itself, that's on you. Though the word doesn't help, because it's deceptively "transparent", until you start to think about it.

It's not the word itself that bothers me, it's what it doesn't manage to represent — as is seen by the occasional grognard who steps into this thread thinking his definition of "blobber" is the obvious and right one (despite being different from all the others who came before and did exactly the same thing)

The one thing that you're right about, is that it's a mess of a "definition", and seems to change with each person who wields it. It fails to do the one thing a definition should do.

The most important thing is that a certain group of people uses this word successfully in communication.

How can a word be used successfully in communication, if it is by sheer coincidence if the people using it understand it the same way?

It is clear by what you wrote that you don't see inevitable misunderstandings and usage questionable context as anything but "successful communication". I am going to bravely disagree there, even though your argument is nigh unassailable.

So here the thing: what if "blobber" or "gridder" didn't exist?

That would change literally nothing, except it would make articles about Eye of the Beholder and Wizardry easier to understand. So not only is the term redundant, imprecise, obscure, inaccurate and pointless; texts would actually be easier to understand without it.

I can't imagine a more utter and complete failure of a word than that.
 

Contagium

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This guy is a blobber:

View attachment 22694
He put his best t-shirt to remind himself of his obligations towards his fellow man, yet he has the stare of someone who had to argue with so many retards on the internet over insignificant stuff for the past few days.

With a more neutral shirt that could have been me 20 kilos ago.

I'm a bit heavy set myself, but there's a difference between being overweight and being the actual guy soyboy memes are made of.
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
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Nov 23, 2016
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Now... i never want to sit and play a game again. Becomning a fat lard ass neckbeard behind a keyboard must be a phobia. Fatjfucktardcoomerphobia. (Maybe he's a chill dude).

Now.... its off to hobogym to find my weight vest and pack and march in a circle for hours to get this image out of my brain. Everytime I see things like this it makes me NOT want to game.

which button is the utter terror button?
:prosper:?
:what:?
 

PorkaMorka

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Feb 19, 2008
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So here the thing: what if "blobber" or "gridder" didn't exist?

If we got rid of the word blobber we'd simply have to come up with another word to describe games with blob combat.

Or you'd have to ask every single time, what kind of combat does this game have, is it more like blob combat (description of blob combat goes here) or is it more like standard pseudo tactical tabletop miniatures combat, where you move your little guys around on a map and make them fight?

The word blobber is extremely useful for helping me to personally understand which classic games I want to avoid, because I want to play a fantasy wargaming adventure where I move little guys around on a map and make them fight. Which means I don't want any blobbers or JRPGs.

I think we could honestly split blobbers and JRPGs off into an entirely separate genre, we just lump them together with pseudo tactical games due to a shortage of RPGs.
 

Atlantico

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If we got rid of the word blobber we'd simply have to come up with another word to describe games with blob combat.

What about the "first person party based dungeon crawler RPG" definition? What is "blob combat" and how do you define it?

Are you sure you're not just with yet another distinct personal interpretation on what the word ostensibly means, thereby proving my point that it is a fundamentally redundant and pointless attempt at a definition which has survived only through each individual making his own interpretation of the term based on the name "blobber"?

Kind of a nerd Rorschach test.
 

PorkaMorka

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so how do you define games that are almost identical except they only have one character?

I define them as bad games not to my taste.

They're not blobbers because they don't have a party. Single character RPGs are their own thing. We could classify them in a number of different ways, but I haven't payed that much attention to how they'd be classified, because it's easy enough to avoid them by checking if they have a party or not.

I would agree with you that blobbers play more like single character games. That's not necessarily a positive thing for blobbers, blobbers have been streamlined so the party is more like a single character in some ways.

What about the "first person party based dungeon crawler RPG" definition?

That 7-8 word phrase is fine, but blobber communicates the same thing in one word, I see it as more likely to actually get used.

What is "blob combat" and how do you define it?

RPG combat that streamlines or eliminates the positioning of individual party members. Instead of moving each party member around individually in combat the party remains glued together in a blob (or formation).

This eliminates the pseudo-tactical wargaming / miniatures aspect and puts the focus more on rolling dice, min maxing mechanics and checking who has higher stats. Like in certain early JRPGs. That's actually a very significant change to how combat plays and feels.

Not every pen and paper roleplaying game used miniatures (we often didn't), but in my limited experience there was always some element moving your individual party members around and taking positioning into account, we almost never did pure blob combat where you JUST roll dice, that's boring.

The pseudo-tactical aspect helps prevent the game from devolving into an exercise in pure dice rolling and checking who has higher stats. Even if the player's moves are often rather obvious, allowing him to make those moves enhances the feeling of player agency, creates a feeling that the combat has the potential to go in different ways (even if it really doesn't), gives the combat more of a dramatic adventure story feel and obscures the often simplistic dice rolling mechanics.

Are you sure you're not just with yet another distinct personal interpretation on what the word ostensibly means, thereby proving my point that it is a fundamentally redundant and pointless attempt at a definition which has survived only through each individual making his own interpretation of the term based on the name "blobber"?

I'm using it right (and I remember how it was originally used), some other people might be using it wrong, but if so I haven't seen their posts. I don't think it's that hard to figure out what's a blobber and it's ok if there are some edge cases. I'm sure you could nitpick it but that's true of any definition.

It doesn't seem like something worth complaining about, either it will catch on or it won't, I'm just defending the term because it's been helpful to me for a long time, having a word to classify these games helps me understand why I don't like them as much as other RPGs.
 

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