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Vapourware 2000s First-Person FPS Shooter Games

HansDampf

Arcane
Joined
Dec 15, 2015
Messages
1,543
I can't think of any FPS game with more fun movement than Doom
Quake.

I don't want to derail this thread any further, but... What's the best way to play Quake in current year if I want it to be reasonably authentic without playing it in DOSBox? I did that to get into Doom a few years ago. And while it was fine, I prefer playing at a higher framerate.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
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Jan 4, 2007
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34,337
Location
KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I can't think of any FPS game with more fun movement than Doom
Quake.

I don't want to derail this thread any further, but... What's the best way to play Quake in current year if I want it to be reasonably authentic without playing it in DOSBox? I did that to get into Doom a few years ago. And while it was fine, I prefer playing at a higher framerate.
The new engine port they made for the Steam version is decent, and they added two new campaigns so it's worth playing just for that alone.

But the preferred way to play is with sourceports. My favorite, due to its faithfulness to the original and the ease of setup, is Quakespasm. It's really easy to install over either the Steam or GOG or original CD version and it doesn't change anything about the engine that would affect the vanilla experience (all it does is raise old engine limits, which means modders can build bigger maps, so for most modern community-made maps it or something like it is required).
 

soutaiseiriron

Educated
Joined
Aug 8, 2023
Messages
274
the night dive source port on steam is fine. i did it just recently. you can turn off their modern graphical post-processing etc easily. i was about to mention that the roboscorpions in scourge of armagon (mission pack 1) jitter left to right when shot at, but this appears to be how the roboscorpions work in other sourceports also, so this isn't an issue with the night dive rerelease.
otherwise, google says ironwail, quakespasm-spiked and vkquake appear to be the top picks. idk what you mean by authentic, unless you want to software rendering and 240p (in which case, you can literally just run winquake, it runs on modern computers. im not kidding.)
 

Eisen

Learned
Joined
Apr 21, 2020
Messages
749

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
58,248
Quake is pretty much perfection in the genre. Everything since is either derivative of Quake or pales in its shadow.

Movement is slick and responsive. The weapon roster may feel basic but there's no gimmicks here, it's all workhorse weapons that are satisfying to use. Explosions adding their force to your movement speed makes rocket jumping possible. The enemy roster is varied and when facing multiple enemy types at once it can become quite challenging - but there are barely any hitscan enemies beyond the basic grunts and the shamblers (who have a long enough attack telegraph for you to dodge behind cover). Level design is full 3D, finally transcending the limitations of 2.5D engines like Doom and Build.

Its own sequel is mediocre in comparison, and Quake 3 doesn't even have a campaign and is therefore irrelevant for single player.

What is there that surpasses Quake? Nothing. Unreal tried to be Quakey but with its own flavor, and while it succeeded at being interesting, it's not quite at the level of Quake.
Several recent retro FPS games are inspired by Quake (Dusk, HROT) but they don't quite reach its quality, either.

Quake stands alone as the giant of its genre.

Quake is, as the advertisements of its time rightfully claimed, the most important computer game of all time.

download-11.png

Quake 1 is a kind of perfection but there are a few things about it that are a matter of taste.

The floaty gameplay and lack of punch in the weapons is one of those things. I wouldn't call it a "flaw" because the gameplay is perfect for what they were going for, but i always preferred the more weighty gameplay of Doom and i think this had to have been a point of controversity back then considering how much they overcorrected in the other direction with Quake 2.
 

Eisen

Learned
Joined
Apr 21, 2020
Messages
749
The floatyness from Quake is what makes me like it more than any of the DOOMs
EDIT: removed duplicated "the"
 

Ash

Arcane
Joined
Oct 16, 2015
Messages
7,048
People say Quake is the best movement game and yet with next to no air control I have to disagree. Also sliding all over the place is bullshit too (there's a deceleration period after letting go of WASD and it's quite long, especially if going down stairs. Yuck).

As for "best way to play" and source ports. Just pick any at random. The differences between them are negligible and have next to no impact on the actual game experience. It only matters to a disgusting graphics whore.
 
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Ash

Arcane
Joined
Oct 16, 2015
Messages
7,048
next to no air control I have to disagree
wtf are you talking about
let go of W, this is basic quake movement
for someone with such elitist views on games you aren't very good at them are you
My eyes are rolling over here. There is air control but it's very minimal/restricted. My ideal is a game with full air control, especially when it has a degree of platforming focus. Meaning air movement matches ground movement. You can change direction in the air in an instant, and you move at the same speed as you do on the ground, regardless of direction. Play the Turok remaster if you want an example. Listen to what you are saying "if you want some air control, let go of the movement key!"...that is not proper air control. Again, full air control is air movement that matches ground movement 100%.
 
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soutaiseiriron

Educated
Joined
Aug 8, 2023
Messages
274
"if you want some air control, let go of the movement key!"...that is not proper air control.
yes? if you stop holding w you get air control. if you hold w you can strafe for extra speed. again, this is basic quake movement. have you literally never played quake, half-life, counter-strike, any game on the quake engine?
 

Ash

Arcane
Joined
Oct 16, 2015
Messages
7,048
Again, you're not understanding what full air control is. Bunnyhopping is not it. Once more, air movement matches ground movement. While in the air, you move exactly the same as on the ground, can change from moving forwards to backwards in an instant, just like on the ground. Bunnyhopping on the other hand requires maintaining forward velocity and manipulating direction with looking, which with full air control looking is independent from movement.
 
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Ash

Arcane
Joined
Oct 16, 2015
Messages
7,048
I thought it was common industry terminology. Here it is defined in Unreal Engine Code as proof of that:

Code:
AirControl=0.200000

it's how much WASD influences movement while in the air. If that value were to be 1.0, WASD movement would be identical in speed to what you get on the ground, allowing air strafes, changes in direction independant of where you're looking, not setting up a bunny hop first and so on. In Quake that value is more like 0.2 also, if that. Not a fan. Bunny hopping is cool and all but ideally requires knowing a map & the enemy spawns first to effectively pull off. General play, and in maps you've never played before, just performing a simple jump from platform to platform, actual air control would be nice.
 
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soutaiseiriron

Educated
Joined
Aug 8, 2023
Messages
274
so you want to fast strafe while midair and be able to press back while going forward midair to gain instant backward momentum?

i mean, i applaud you for your outspoken taste in terrible movement physics i guess. idk what to say to that. almost no game, not even 3d platformers follow this logic because it's kind of janky and shit and a jump should have a level of commitment and thought put into it, but if you like it you like it ig.
 

Ash

Arcane
Joined
Oct 16, 2015
Messages
7,048
You're an idiot, and have resorted to dumb insults when proven wrong. Good going.

Plenty of 2D and 3D platformers have proper air control. It's probably an even split, and in fact it's often what sets the best apart. Imagine Mario without air control. It allows reacting to things while in the air, and a platformer in particular, you spend more time in the air than on the ground. So just shut your idiot fucking mouth.

I still like platformers where you have to commit too, like classic Tomb Raider, but platforming intensive games where you're constantly in the air like Mario it's all about that air control. Now quake is not that game, there isn't actually much platforming, but I still have a preference for air control and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. And I definitely expect it in a game where its movement is championed. The Build engine games have it, I suppose they are janky and shit too? :salute:
 
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Ash

Arcane
Joined
Oct 16, 2015
Messages
7,048
Insert RETARDED meme about how shooters on console were shit until Goldeneye and Halo of all things came along, when in fact they were serious decline. I don't know how people could have it this backwards. Doom, Duke Nukem 3D & Quake are shit? Uh, they're still in the top 5 shooters ever made. Not to mention the great games that aren't ports of the PC classics; Alien Trilogy, Doom 64, Turok. disruptor is alright too. Goldeneye and Halo were sheer decline, not very good, but are championed as the best. Why are gamers so retarded?
 

schru

Arcane
Joined
Feb 27, 2015
Messages
1,142
I can't think of any FPS game with more fun movement than Doom
Quake.

I don't want to derail this thread any further, but... What's the best way to play Quake in current year if I want it to be reasonably authentic without playing it in DOSBox? I did that to get into Doom a few years ago. And while it was fine, I prefer playing at a higher framerate.
Playing it in DOSBox is the most authentic way of doing it in the current year. It won't have a low frame rate like Doom, as Quake did not have such a limit coded into it.

Reasons to play in DOSBox:
  1. you play the original version of the game from Id Software;
  2. the gamma in WinQuake (the official Windows port) and possibly most unofficial source ports is higher, while this version is a little darker;
  3. you can play the game at the original 320x200 (double-scanned) resolution, at which the HUD fits the screen as intended and is large and readable, but scaled properly to your native resolution, while in Windows ports rendering at this or a similar resolution would be problematic and produce a blurry result;
  4. visually, the game looks better the way it was originally released, without any additions or attempts to smooth out the edges: low-resolution, no texture filtering, uninterpolated animations, distorted textures on the weapons, etc.—it's possible to approximate this look in source ports, but one has to turn off various settings, sometimes with commands in the configuration file, and some things still won't be like in the original version (for instance it's possible to turn off bilinear texture filtering easily, but some other things about them are still rendered using different methods);
  5. the original stereo sound mixing also feels more adequate in the original version;
  6. you can also easily use C.R.T.-screen shaders in DOSBox builds such as DOSBox-X or Staging.
If you have the GOG version, it comes with a short cut for launching the DOS version with music set up to play in the game, so all one might need to do is to change the renderer and scaling settings in the included DOSBox CONF file. In case of the current Steam version, it's necessary to add DOSBox to it and create a CONF file and a short cut for launching it by oneself, since the current publisher removed it. The original executable file is still there, but the music isn't included either.

Both releases of the game probably have full mouselook (with the vertical axis) enabled. This wasn't the case in the original game, so the +mlook command should be removed from autoexec.cfg in Quake\id1. Originally, there is a dedicated mouselook button, which, when held down, enables looking up and down with the mouse. It's possible that running wasn't always on by default either, but this can be changed in the menu.

Either way, I recommend using DOSBox-X or Staging. In case of the GOG version, it's necessary to remove the original DOSBox files from their folder and replace them with one of these custom builds; it's important to remember to rename the included DOSBox executable to the standard dosbox.exe, otherwise all the existing short cuts won't find it.

I suggest making the following changes in the existing or new dosbox.conf file in the main Quake folder (or in the DOSBox folder, if the default CONF file is used instead):
fullresolution=desktop​
output=openglnb​
aspect=true​
scaler=hardware_none​
cycles=60000 // (more may be necessary to get a good frame rate, depending on the particular configuration)​

For the C.R.T. shaders, it's necessary to add these two commands (they may be included in the [renderer] section:

doublescan=true​
glshader= // (this is for the OpenGL renderers, if the Direct3D renderer is used, pixelshader should be added too; there is a variety of shaders to choose from in the folders included with the two mentioned builds, but which will look best depends on the monitor used; I find that crt-lottes.tweaked.glsl looks reasonably acceptable at resolutions which aren't high enough to reproduce the complete pattern correctly; it's also possible that DOSBox Staging requires including the folder path for the shader)​

The easiest way to set up music with the DOS version in the Steam release might be to copy the files from the GOG version (dosbox_quake_single.conf and CUE and disc image files, only in this case both CONF files need to be loaded in the short cut, which can also be looked up in the GOG version). I also recommend removing the exit commands from the short cuts, as they cause the post-quitting screen not to be displayed.

An important note regarding music: there is a wide-spread misunderstanding in various configuration guides that the music tracks were mastered and burned with pre-emphasis, so that they need to have de-emphasis applied to them. This seems to have originated from one odd release which had de-emphasis flags included, but judging by other official discs and the recent official remaster of the music by Trent Reznor himself, this was an isolated mistake. Applying de-emphasis to the tracks muffles them and even makes some details inaudible. On the other hand, the remaster is even more crisp than the original release.

Still on the topic of playing Quake the authentic way, there is also something for replaying the game. Id Software released a version with hardware-accelerated graphics in 1997 called GLQuake. It has a different look and at least at the time it was mainly aimed at the first Voodoo card. It seems to work well enough with nGlide (that is, for playing at one of the original low resolutions scaled up to one's native resolution, in order to maintain a reasonably sized HUD), but it needs the 0.97 patch for music to work—this patch isn't applied in the current Steam and GOG releases, it seems.

In order to play music from files in WinQuake (the official software-rendered version), GLQuake, or source ports which don't include music players, it's best to use a program called _inmm. To use it the original executable needs to be patched with it and a play-list with the tracks in one of the compatible formats created in _inmm.

There is also another interesting thing to add flavour to replaying Quake. When Bobby Prince, Id Software's composer on Commander Keen, Wolfenstein 3D, and Doom, released the official Doom Music album in 1997, he arranged the tracks so that they can be played in Quake (meaning that the first track should be omitted, because that would normally be the data track, and the extra few at the end would also not be used) (the information about it is on the back cover: https://www.discogs.com/release/7024212-Bobby-Prince-Doom-Music).

Finally, there was also the Methods of Destruction album by Sonic Mayhem, released in 1996 as alternative set of tracks for Quake. It wasn't official, but Id Software liked it so much that it hired Sonic Mayhem to compose the music for Quake II and Quake III Arena.

As for unofficial source ports, the one which seems to most faithful to the original version is Mark V, when the software renderer is used. I think it needs _inmm to play the music.

I recommend using the official remaster only for the new episode by Machine Games. Incidentally, Night Dive accepted the rumour about the music tracks having pre-emphasis applied without looking into it and included de-emphasized tracks in the remaster.

A few screenshots with the crt-lottes.tweaked shader (my monitor's native resolution isn't very suitable for these shaders, actually, hence the pattern is distorted):

image001.png


image002.png


image003.png


image004.png


image005.png


image006.png


image007.png

Quake is pretty much perfection in the genre. Everything since is either derivative of Quake or pales in its shadow.

Movement is slick and responsive. The weapon roster may feel basic but there's no gimmicks here, it's all workhorse weapons that are satisfying to use. Explosions adding their force to your movement speed makes rocket jumping possible. The enemy roster is varied and when facing multiple enemy types at once it can become quite challenging - but there are barely any hitscan enemies beyond the basic grunts and the shamblers (who have a long enough attack telegraph for you to dodge behind cover). Level design is full 3D, finally transcending the limitations of 2.5D engines like Doom and Build.

Its own sequel is mediocre in comparison, and Quake 3 doesn't even have a campaign and is therefore irrelevant for single player.

What is there that surpasses Quake? Nothing. Unreal tried to be Quakey but with its own flavor, and while it succeeded at being interesting, it's not quite at the level of Quake.
Several recent retro FPS games are inspired by Quake (Dusk, HROT) but they don't quite reach its quality, either.

Quake stands alone as the giant of its genre.

Quake is, as the advertisements of its time rightfully claimed, the most important computer game of all time.

download-11.png

Quake 1 is a kind of perfection but there are a few things about it that are a matter of taste.

The floaty gameplay and lack of punch in the weapons is one of those things. I wouldn't call it a "flaw" because the gameplay is perfect for what they were going for, but i always preferred the more weighty gameplay of Doom and i think this had to have been a point of controversity back then considering how much they overcorrected in the other direction with Quake 2.
Quake's movement has quite palpable inertia, but I wouldn't say it's floaty. Even more so, I don't see how you could describe its weapons as lacking a punch. Aren't you by chance thinking of some source ports where the sound mixing is different and the weapon viewmodels are smaller and their animations or bobbing lessened? Both can weaken the feeling of the weapons a lot.
 
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HansDampf

Arcane
Joined
Dec 15, 2015
Messages
1,543
:shredder:
That's a lot to take in. But I've already configured Quakespasm-spiked and would be ready to go. And I'd need a sourceport, anyway, to play Arcane Dimensions later. I mentioned the choppy framerate because that's what I remembered from this ADG review.

I want accuracy mostly in terms of game physics.
 

schru

Arcane
Joined
Feb 27, 2015
Messages
1,142
:shredder:
That's a lot to take in. But I've already configured Quakespasm-spiked and would be ready to go. And I'd need a sourceport, anyway, to play Arcane Dimensions later. I mentioned the choppy framerate because that's what I remembered from this ADG review.

I want accuracy mostly in terms of game physics.

There's no problem with keeping at least some of the source ports in the same folder as the original game and being able to use all the various executables with appropriate results. I'd set aside the newer source ports for fan maps and campaigns. If you look at QuakeSpasm for example, while the weapon movement seems like in the original game, the viewmodel begins at the bottom of the screen and the HUD is overlaid on top of it, which makes the former look rather small. Having the HUD translucent and small doesn't seem very good either.

As for the choppy frame rate, I can't watch the video because it's age-restricted, but my guess is that either the person who recorded it didn't have a fast enough CPU or didn't set the cycles to a sufficient value. Having a recording program running could have slowed it down too. Then there may also be those who for the sake of authenticity might try to play Quake at whatever was the average attainable frame rate back when it had come out.

When I set the cycles to something high like 400,000 in DOSBox-X, the game runs perfectly smoothly.

As for the physics, I could be wrong about this, but I think that most popular source ports carry over this part of the code quite accurately, since it's such an important part of the game.

Consider also that there are many more games which don't have good source ports at all, so DOSBox remains the best or even only way of playing them. It's best to learn to use it early. It seems complicated and tedious at first, but it's very easy to change the few necessary values in the CFG file and add a few commands to make up for missing music discs in some cases. Once you learn it, you can apply it to lots of games and you won't have to rely on preconfigured set-ups.
 

DJOGamer PT

Arcane
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
8,101
Location
Lusitânia
Insert RETARDED meme about how shooters on console were shit until Goldeneye and Halo of all things came along, when in fact they were serious decline. I don't know how people could have it this backwards. Doom, Duke Nukem 3D & Quake are shit? Uh, they're still in the top 5 shooters ever made. Not to mention the great games that aren't ports of the PC classics; Alien Trilogy, Doom 64, Turok. disruptor is alright too. Goldeneye and Halo were sheer decline, not very good, but are championed as the best. Why are gamers so retarded?
They were not designed to be played on consoles
Goldeneye and Halo were, it's natural these two make better experiences in their platforms
 

Ash

Arcane
Joined
Oct 16, 2015
Messages
7,048
Retarded. Could you be any more retarded?

Dark Souls wasn't designed for PC. And yet it is still just as great a game on PC. Even with WASD rolling.

The difference a platform makes is in most cases completely negligible, if the port is not completely botched. Do you even play video games? How is Doom no longer the legend it is on PSX? It's Doom, why in the ever living fuck would I play shitty Goldeneye over it? The game that was "designed for consoles" and yet Doom PSX has better controls, framerate (Goldeneye was often around 10FPS lol), gameplay by far, wasn't a blurry mess etc.

No those games do not make better experiences than fricken Doom, one of the greatest FPS of all time. I was alive and well at the time experiencing them both, so you can take my word for it. Do I have to point out again that playing with a controller is not any notably worse than how Doom was originally played by the vast majority - stock keyboards only?

It's a meme because people are retarded, I get very tired of people's stupidity, and that's the end of the story.
 
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