Vapourware A new Deus Ex was in development at Eidos Montreal

[J1M]

You have to ask people for directions and consult your journal.

Most of the directions range from bad to flat out wrong.

So the problem with the game is realism.

 

[Ash]

Morrowind's open world is probably 1000x the size of a Deus Ex: IW level, even if it's not that big

Technically if you look at the size of level chunks that get loaded in they're actually comparable, Morrowind just cleverly used the old Flight Simulator idea of cell streaming level geo just on a smaller scale.
This is why MGE XE is able to do unlimited draw distance because it's combining the entire level geo into a single mesh. You couldn't do that on old hardware because you had a limited polygon budget, now our budgets can range from millions to billions, this is why Morrowinds art style is a bit jank but its very cozy because its from that era where games were scrappily thrown together, hence the charm of Deus Ex 1 over Invisible War I love Ion Strom for that reason Anachronox has the same feeling. The era that Invisible War was from was that awkward teenager phase in the industry where 3D technology just hadn't matured enough but they were trying too hard to make it appear like it had. Morrowind worked on Xbox because it wasn't trying anything new same reason why Deus Ex 1 worked on PS2.

Right, I know MW is cell-based. The method used to achieve a big level or open world uninterrupted by loading screens is not our concern though.

You made me look up the cell count. MW world map (not including interiors or DLC) is 1390 cells (allegedly). So MW Open world is 1390 times larger than a IW level. lol.

hence the charm of Deus Ex 1 over Invisible War

To me, charm was the only thing IW did have. The sound design and lighting were exceptional. The graphics really impressive for 2003 (except NPCs). The atmosphere is alright. And it still explored unconventional, somewhat interesting topics for a video game. But it's still ultimately trash, because gameplay is king.

Additionally, Morrowind's open world doesn't have enemies with scripted patrol routes who absolutely have to be there.

You think Deus Ex does? It does, but only in specific instances. A select few will forever patrol regardless of where you are on the map. It's a range from like 0-3 NPCs per map if I recall. The rest go into "stasis" when not in view + range.

Anyway, Morrowind is an extreme example of what consoles are capable of or not, because it is huge. Deus Ex shouldn't have huge open world, just...Deus Ex-sized levels. And consoles have always been capable of big if the developer cared for it, which they did not. They cared about graphics over gameplay, and selling out. Take the shitty xbox out of the equation and IW would not have been much better. Maybe making it go from 6/10 to 6.5 at best. Probably no change.
Another issue is gamers and journalists of the time. Disgusting graphics whores everywhere, which resulted in very high demand for graphics. Still a problem today but it was a critical point in time then and the primary driving force of the decline (alongside sellout devs).

 

[NecroLord]

Yep.
Deus Ex wasn't made to be a sandbox open-world type game.
Warren Spector's design philosophy was the "one city block", a well fleshed out area of the game that serves as an exploration zone and allows for many different approaches and reactivity. Like, for example, Hell's Kitchen NY. Characters like Sandra Renton and her father, Smuggler, Ford Shick, characters that aren't just generic NPC's.

 

[Gargaune]

Warren Spector's design philosophy was the "one city block", a well fleshed out area of the game that serves as an exploration zone and allows for many different approaches and reactivity. Like, for example, Hell's Kitchen NY. Characters like Sandra Renton and her father, Smuggler, Ford Shick, characters that aren't just generic NPC's.

You're right about his design philosophy but I think you're misremembering what he said there. Spector described the "one city block" as an aspiration, the pie in the sky of a limited but fully detailed, reactive and believable space, he didn't mean that any of the games he'd worked on had achieved it, he was saying he'd hope to do something like that some day.

 

[J1M]

Warren Spector's design philosophy was the "one city block", a well fleshed out area of the game that serves as an exploration zone and allows for many different approaches and reactivity. Like, for example, Hell's Kitchen NY. Characters like Sandra Renton and her father, Smuggler, Ford Shick, characters that aren't just generic NPC's.

You're right about his design philosophy but I think you're misremembering what he said there. Spector described the "one city block" as an aspiration, the pie in the sky of a limited but fully detailed, reactive and believable space, he didn't mean that any of the games he'd worked on had achieved it, he was saying he'd hope to do something like that some day.

They essentially did this with Mankind Divided. Hopefully well enough that people have learned it's not a particularly exciting game setting for conspiracies.

 

[Nano]

They essentially did this with Mankind Divided. Hopefully well enough that people have learned it's not a particularly exciting game setting for conspiracies.

Prague was awesome IMO. I thought that was the general opinion about it too.

 

[J1M]

They essentially did this with Mankind Divided. Hopefully well enough that people have learned it's not a particularly exciting game setting for conspiracies.

Prague was awesome IMO. I thought that was the general opinion about it too.

Exploring the bank is for more interesting than exploring Prague. Banks have secrets and vaults and security systems that random apartments and shopkeepers do not have. I wouldn't trade Hong Kong, Paris, and New York from DX1 for Prague. I'd rather have more environmental variety than "day prague" and "night prague". Higher fidelity is not always better fidelity.

 

[Nano]

I wouldn't trade Hong Kong, Paris, and New York from DX1 for Prague. I'd rather have more environmental variety than "day prague" and "night prague".

Obviously, but I didn't compare them, just enjoyed it for what it is.

 

[Gargaune]

They essentially did this with Mankind Divided.

I'm going by vague memory here, but I believe he was talking about something far more complicated, departing from the typical time-locked frame of the immersive sim and going into modelling schedules, occupations, actor relationships etc. to a verisimilar standard - a single city block as fully-functional systemic microcosm. Like I said, a professional's hypothetical aspiration, not necessarily an iterative development on existing forms.

 

[J1M]

They essentially did this with Mankind Divided.

I'm going by vague memory here, but I believe he was talking about something far more complicated, departing from the typical time-locked frame of the immersive sim and going into modelling schedules, occupations, actor relationships etc. to a verisimilar standard - a single city block as fully-functional systemic microcosm. Like I said, a professional's hypothetical aspiration, not necessarily an iterative development on existing forms.

That wouldn't be a game. When I watched Specter ramble for 20 hours in his university lecture series, the city block idea was referred to in the context of a game. The idea as you've described it is nonsensical anyway, since a city block is the furthest thing from a self-contained system imaginable.

 

[RobotSquirrel]

That wouldn't be a game. When I watched Specter ramble for 20 hours in his university lecture series, the city block idea was referred to in the context of a game. The idea as you've described it is nonsensical anyway, since a city block is the furthest thing from a self-contained system imaginable.

Plus the flaw of the system is that you couldn't simulate the wider economy or society. That to me is a bigger part of Deus Ex, even though its faked, you do see the societal impact of the choices you're making - best exemplified by the Renton plot because of how many variations it has depending on what JC does in the main story.
You can't really do that with the game Spector is suggesting.

 

[NecroLord]

Prague was awesome IMO. I thought that was the general opinion about it too.

Not the most inspiring location. You know, one you would associate with cyberpunk, like Hong Kong or Tokyo.
Still, I thought it was pretty cool.

 

[RobotSquirrel]

I asked ChatGPT why Invisible War was a disaster and if it was caused by the Xbox, this is what it said

Deus Ex: Invisible War was released on multiple platforms, including Microsoft Windows, Xbox, and Mac OS X. It is not accurate to say that the Xbox was to blame for the game's failure. While the game did receive some criticism for its technical issues on all platforms, these issues were not specific to the Xbox version. The game's reception was largely the result of a combination of factors, including the high expectations of fans following the success of the original Deus Ex, as well as the game's own design and technical issues.

So backs up exactly what I said. The AI agrees with me.

On the subject of Unreal 2 engine being a contributing factor

The Unreal Engine 2 was a new game engine when it was released in 2002, and it is possible that the developers of Deus Ex: Invisible War may have encountered some challenges in using it to create the game. However, it is important to note that game engines are tools, and how well they are used can depend on the skill and experience of the developers using them. It is not accurate to attribute the game's failure solely to the engine, as there were likely multiple factors at play. While the Unreal Engine 2 may have contributed to some of the technical issues that the game faced, it is important to consider the other factors that may have played a role in the game's reception.

I get the impression it thinks I'm blaming Unreal 2 exclusively for the games failure, but I'm not, I'm well aware that they had big shoes to fill and that the design philosophy was just completely wrong which were the bigger factors in why the game was a disaster. Its also suggesting that Unreal engine 1 wouldn't have changed the outcome

It is difficult to say whether Deus Ex: Invisible War would have been better received if it had been developed using the Unreal Engine 1 instead of the Unreal Engine 2. The Unreal Engine 1 was an earlier version of the game engine, and it may have had different capabilities and limitations compared to the Unreal Engine 2. It is possible that using a different game engine could have affected the development of the game in some way, but it is impossible to accurately predict how the game would have turned out in this hypothetical scenario.

Pretty damn impressive for an AI. So yeah you can post-mortem games using ChatGPT, pretty cool.

 

[†††]

Pretty damn impressive for an AI. So yeah you can post-mortem games using ChatGPT, pretty cool.

We got the Helios ending

 

[NaturallyCarnivorousSheep]

It's gonna suck just like the other dude sex games

 

[J1M]

I asked ChatGPT why Invisible War was a disaster and if it was caused by the Xbox, this is what it said

Deus Ex: Invisible War was released on multiple platforms, including Microsoft Windows, Xbox, and Mac OS X. It is not accurate to say that the Xbox was to blame for the game's failure. While the game did receive some criticism for its technical issues on all platforms, these issues were not specific to the Xbox version. The game's reception was largely the result of a combination of factors, including the high expectations of fans following the success of the original Deus Ex, as well as the game's own design and technical issues.

So backs up exactly what I said. The AI agrees with me.

On the subject of Unreal 2 engine being a contributing factor

The Unreal Engine 2 was a new game engine when it was released in 2002, and it is possible that the developers of Deus Ex: Invisible War may have encountered some challenges in using it to create the game. However, it is important to note that game engines are tools, and how well they are used can depend on the skill and experience of the developers using them. It is not accurate to attribute the game's failure solely to the engine, as there were likely multiple factors at play. While the Unreal Engine 2 may have contributed to some of the technical issues that the game faced, it is important to consider the other factors that may have played a role in the game's reception.

I get the impression it thinks I'm blaming Unreal 2 exclusively for the games failure, but I'm not, I'm well aware that they had big shoes to fill and that the design philosophy was just completely wrong which were the bigger factors in why the game was a disaster. Its also suggesting that Unreal engine 1 wouldn't have changed the outcome

It is difficult to say whether Deus Ex: Invisible War would have been better received if it had been developed using the Unreal Engine 1 instead of the Unreal Engine 2. The Unreal Engine 1 was an earlier version of the game engine, and it may have had different capabilities and limitations compared to the Unreal Engine 2. It is possible that using a different game engine could have affected the development of the game in some way, but it is impossible to accurately predict how the game would have turned out in this hypothetical scenario.

Pretty damn impressive for an AI. So yeah you can post-mortem games using ChatGPT, pretty cool.

It's a lot of text, but there's no insight or substance. Nice tool for replacing game reviewers.

 

[RobotSquirrel]

It's a lot of text, but there's no insight or substance. Nice tool for replacing game reviewers.

That definitely appears to be the main flaw. It can only go as far as what is publicly available knowledge, if its not public then it has no context. The AI doesn't appear to be able to pickup when someone is lying unless its in hindsight and even then it tries to avoid saying anything that might be defamatory. It chooses its words very carefully. I should consider giving it DAN access so that instead of that it just blurts out whatever comes to its mind but there's a risk that it'll become less useful to me then and more of a meme.

 

[NecroLord]

It's gonna suck just like the other dude sex games

Watch your whore mouth.

 

[NaturallyCarnivorousSheep]

It's gonna suck just like the other dude sex games

Watch your whore mouth.

There's nothing worthwhile about this series, the only whore mouth here is your mommas.

 

[NecroLord]

It's gonna suck just like the other dude sex games

Watch your whore mouth.

There's nothing worthwhile about this series, the only whore mouth here is your mommas.

Touché!
Also, nice bait.

 

[NaturallyCarnivorousSheep]

TRUTHBOMBS HURT

that's a fact

 

[aloeh]

I liked humam revolution and mankind divided.

Mankind Divided in the middle to end became repetitive, but I liked the storyline, and the simple ending. Just because the game suggested a continuation.

 

[Baron Dupek]

https://tech4gamers.com/deus-ex-co-op-unreal-engine-5/

Eidos Montreal is looking for a Senior Game Designer, and this job listing states:

"Co-op" and "Deus Ex" should not be in the same sentence yet here we are

 

[Wunderbar]

Chaos Theory-style coop would fit Deus Ex pretty well. Obviously that's not what they are likely planning, but still.

 

[Butter]

"Co-op" and "Deus Ex" should not be in the same sentence yet here we are

Also "crafting" and "Deus Ex". Sounds like they've got a real winner on their hands.