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About To Hell With Guns and Note of the outskirts - released

CryptRat

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Link to Note of the outskirts : https://cryptrat.itch.io/note-of-the-outskirts
TM9mFnA.png
Z5jcfa.png
FVDpI8.png

Old :
EDIT 2020/12/20 : real game coming soon.
TM9mFnA.png









In the meantine :


I'll just make this thread so I can randomly post thoughts and updates.


You can download THWG here : https://cryptrat.itch.io/tohellwithguns
We're going to release another version of THWG at some point, but I don't know when, which is basically meant to be the same exact game with some more convenience features and pictures. EDIT : Version with all the assets, full screen mode and a few more features and bug fixes has been released.

I wanted to talk about the system (dices and stuff), I think I never did and it's pretty obscure in THWG, not because it is meant to be but rather that I have difficulties displaying dice rolls, etc.. in a way which is more informative than confusing while it's in fact quite simple (and also quite D&D-ish in essence).

Some work-in-progress (the list of spell especially is some quick shot) character sheet for reference :
Every skill check works that way :
Roll (Score - Difficulty) dices, if second best > 50% it's a success.
For combat especially :
Roll (attack - defense) dices, if second best > 50% then hit.

It works for the basic stat, resistance and skill score ranges of the game, you can always fail but can't always succeed, critical successes depends on your ability and you'll always critically fails (and hurts yourself and your party) if you try things you suck at.

I used to use D100s, I'm currently switching to D6s which have many advantages :
- if you should roll less than 2 dices, just roll 2 dices and remove 1 to the score for each dice missing
- with less than 0 dices (score = difficulty) you can't succeed.
- Obvious critical hits on 6 and critical failures on 1 or less than 1

The only really downside is that I need to change how critical hits work in combat, so far it was if you have 1 then only 100 is critical, with 2 100 and 99 etc... I've not changed yet.

Currently max Hps, max mps and Attacks/round (which only apply to single target weapon moves) depend on your main level (nothing else does unless I'm forgetting something), which could change (hps depending entirely on your endurance and hits/round directly on weapon proficiency and/or various speed modifiers).

Weapon balance is based on what's done in Disciples of steel (attack = proficiency, and weapons give a bonus and a cap), with barrel capacity and range being more important than in Disciples of steel. I'm still not totally decided (I'm not even totally decided about the setting :)) but I think I'll reuse the weapons of THWG as a basis.

By the way I recently added the different weapon attacks to the description of the weapon :
(the attack/round multiplier of almost all weapons is 1, machine guns are special, but the attack speed of the weapon slightly influences the number of attacks/round).
Progression in THWG is ridiculously fast, it won't be here, and you'll also be given many more points in the beginning, the rise in power during the game will be low.

Among other things I've been working on resistances recently.
Saving throws and resistances in the final version of THWG (there's currently none) are very basic (edge&piercing, blunt, fire, acid), not that there's much to check.

In the more involved game it could be something like that :
RZ0Hzi2.png

As long as spells are not "fireball" and "ice spikes" but rather "burn" and "freeze" while weapons being chainsaws and laser guns I think it makes sense that spells ignore armor while weapons don't. I'm trying to keep exceptions rare if any.

Resistances work this way :

When you're hit (by a spell or a weapon), you roll for the corresponding resistance (difficulty = 0*) and if you succeed then you take half the damages, if you critically succeed then you don't take any damage and if you critically fails you take double damages. Unless the targets "is immuned", "returns" or "absorbs" the damage (which replace having a resistance score) in which case it's automatic, there's no rolling.

* Possibly some strong spells will apply a malus to resistance before check.

You may notice that very high attack can break very high defense, but you can't do anything against high resistance (except using something else).

About affliction let's say if the ability used only implies an affliction (but no damage) you get afflicted on failing a check resistance, whereas if it's a damaging ability then you get afflicted only on a critical hit or a critically failed resistance.

I'm currently working on that part and it's a bit more complicated especially if I actually use the resistance table above. Robots are not immuned to chainsaws but won't lose blood, etc... which imposes that some afflictions, like blood loss, should never associated to a specific ability, just on the damage taken and type of target or something like that. That makes total sense anyway, I've just not properly set up things yet.


About spells, they have a fixed MP cost, while the gem cost decreases with proficiency (down to 0).

Difficulty to cast is currently 0 for every spell, and could stay this way. You'll rarely fail to cast a spell then. The spell effects currently don't depend at all of your score, but that I'm undecided about.
One last thing, the game takes place in one big dungeon, which is open with many ways to reach the different area. Most of if not all the world is accessible by different ways not relying on combat nor high-level spells (flying, invisibility, destroy wall) while you can just bruteforce your way in via combat or via these high-level spells which require a lot of gems.
 
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CryptRat

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More stuff nobody cares about, in some future I might talk about interesting things.

About "current" state of modding support (in the hopefully soon to be released final version of THWG, so I can stop working on it) :

What you can change (for the most part changing the existing ones as well as create more) with the next version of THWG :
- The dungeon layout (basically everything, its size, tiles, you can use events which are implemented and define and place fixed encounters)
- Enemies (their stats and skills, as long as the skills are in the game or are just damage/affliction ones)
- Items (weapons, armors, including defining your own types of ammo)
- Base attributes (Strength...) You can define them (how many you want), and their link with skills and '"derived attributes" ("derived attributes" being those on the top right of the character sheet)
- The set of skills (naming them and regroup various systems which are in the game how you wish to)
- "Combat" spells (buffs can be cast out of combat, but not much you can do about utility ones)
- "Archetypes" (or races or however you choose to call them)
- Damage types
- Resistances
- the default party
- Texts to some extend (the game uses a banal key->translation system, files for each language are provided, but many sentences and description texts are some of those translation texts put one after another so you can't do whatever you would like)
- Some data, like the max party size, if the game use spells and if it uses gems and how many points you gain while levelling up (well not exactly, not more than one more point than last level currently), or the max duration the shop won't let you enter if you're spotted trying to steal. You can also choose to roll base stats when generating a character
- Monster pictures, and the pictures related to events.

Everything is in xml files and readable enough at least for a good part or so I hope.

What can't be changed, the problems and what may be done in the future :
- Derived attributes (those on the top of the character sheet) are currently hardcoded and may stay this way (you can change their name). However far too many formula for various derived attributes are hardcoded too and something will have to be done about that
- Formula for creating random encounters and some more are currently hardcoded, the minimum could be to extract some numbers from the code.
- Afflictions, now that's a hard one, you can only rename them, like above some numbers should at least be extracted from the code, probably more but I'll see as I work more on them
- I have not talked about dungeon textures, currently all you can do is choosing your background(s), wall texture(s) and not-a-wall texture(s) (if you use more than one the game just regularly alternates between them), and the same are used for the entire dungeon. Obviously even for my own game this is very restrictive and I need to do something about that.
- And that's true for more feature, enemies for random encounters are by floor, not some deal-breaker but it won't work in my own big dungeon so that will change.
- Characters only wear one weapon and one armor in THWG while shoes and helmet could work but that's something I need to properly set up since I just "removed" (ignored) everything else directly in the "engine" code for the game jam, the current game also only have weapon+armor.

That's only the theory, in practice :
- There's no documentation at all, and many things are not even used in THWG so not usable without direct access to the code, while stuff like riddles with keyboard answer opening a door are implemented for example (I can potentially provide some test maps with some events and things).
- Everything which is used in THWG was tested, but for everything else there are probably tons of bugs, not sure spells work at all or that attacks from enemies which target more than one enemy work. Obviously these things will eventually have to work.
- The only tool I'm using myself is a rudimentary map editor where you set up your map layout, I may provide it with the game, but for the rest I just use code. Doing more than changing numbers may or may not be a nightmare in practice.
 
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Fowyr

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CryptRat
It's really promising! I was sold when I pressed Esc to cancel dialogue with healer and found secret door in her room. Great M&M1-2 and Wizardry vibes!
Spent 30 minutes to explore and map first level and now on level 3. Sorry for retarded question, but is combat implemented yet? Every imp that I see gives me hints or just leaves.
Is it a way to run game in full screen mode?
 

CryptRat

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It's really promising
Thanks.
is combat implemented yet?
Sure, it is just very easy to avoid, by fleeing or talking, and even when you fail to talk the enemies will often not bother to attack you, but you can choose to attack them.
Is it a way to run game in full screen mode?
Not in the version you're playing, sorry for that (it'll be in the next build but no reason for you to play it if you've already played this one).
 

Fowyr

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Sure, it is just very easy to avoid, by fleeing or talking, and even when you fail to talk the enemies will often not bother to attack you, but you can choose to attack them.
Oh! Just killed my first bunch of demon gunners. These spinners and invisible walls, man! :negative:
 

Fowyr

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I very like that you made characters quickly selectable with 1..3 keys on inventory and skills screens, but please consider adding name of the character in the inventory screen.

EDIT: When you press S (select) - R (run) in combat it thinks that you want to reload (that uses the same key), but then still runs.
 
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CryptRat

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Thanks, I missed this one, I doublechecked some sets of keys recently but I realize I didn't check the combat actions.
 

Fowyr

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CryptRat
Command "pool" would be useful on merchant screen, instead of using inventory - credits - collect
Do you planning to make proper big dungeon, or you are making just Unholy Construction Set?

Also mondblut.
 

CryptRat

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Command "pool" would be useful on merchant screen, instead of using inventory - credits - collect
Yes, thanks, I will add that.

I know the trading UI is bad, in a big part because you need to switch between character's inventory and trader's inventory. I'm not exactly sure that making a better one is a top priority or not because I'm not exactly sure that you'll do a lot of trading or not in the game I'm envisioning, but it's likely that at some point it annoys me so much during tests that I'll just improve it.
Do you planning to make proper big dungeon
Yes, I'm trying to make a game first and foremost.

I don't really expect anybody else to use the engine but there's no legit reason why this wouldn't be moddable and talking about modding forces me to arrange data a little better.
 

Fowyr

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CryptRat
There is duplicate keyboard command on the shop subscreen.
Buy - Inventory - (S) Sell (S) Skills.
Does Haggle command works on demon's inventory? I raised selling price of plastic armor from 10 CP to 15 CP but can't buy cheaper.
 
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CryptRat

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Does Haggle command works on demon's inventory? I raised selling price of plastic armor from 10 CP to 15 CP but can't buy cheaper.
Yes, you can even spam the command until it works.

There used to be a restriction common to different skills, like talking and haggling, you could get angry when you critically fails and then couldn't use utility skills again for a while but I removed it before uploading the game, I wasn't that happy with it anyway and I think it was specially unclear because displaying character status didn't work as intended or something. I have not reintroduced anything yet (THWG will likely stay that way, you can spam alright), the idea I have is that any such actions will cost 1 MP and that way I can add, possibly specfiic, critical failure effects (which could loosely prevents you to use the ability again by reducing your ability, just disabling you from doing specific things like haggling and repairing while you can still act in combat is very stupid).
 

CryptRat

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Yes, he already throws you out when he catches you stealing so he may as well throws you out when you bother him too.
 

Fowyr

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Damn, I just thought about RoA when saw V_K's post. :lol:
So, I don't know is it feature or the bug, but apparently when you stepped in the shop and pressed Esc to cancel screen with shopkeeper's face and buying prompt, you can press I to go into inventory mode and sell items on this screen. I just was thrown out of the store but still can sell.
Every time you load game, time is reset to 1 day 8 am, but I presume it's a still work in progress.
 

CryptRat

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Thanks, I think the second bug was just work in progress and it works now while the first one may still be in the game, I'll have to check both to be sure.
 

Fowyr

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1) Please add "damaged by trap" message in the movement log.
2) Probably add "party moves forward" or something to it too. Messages like "there is a damaging trap blah blah" just scroll up.
3) Add current character's encumbrance meter to loot screen.
4)If you move to the square that pushes you back, you still can detect things that surround it. For example, when you move to (14,15,3) , "falling trap to the west" message sometimes appears. Probably it's feature.
5)Party is always lost when you reload game even if you had exact bearings beforehand.
 

Fowyr

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Damn, Dark Overlord is a beast. I need to rest and think about my party's equipment and skills.
Nice mazes - spinner maze, teleport maze, door maze and invisible wall maze.
 

CryptRat

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1) Please add "damaged by trap" message in the movement log.
I may disagree with you on that one.
Even if I know how stupid not knowing when you're damaged is I probably won't add it. I like when your guy goes inconscient and you're like "Wait, what?"

However I added a "Character : "closed"" when you bump onto a door you can't pass whatever the reason.
2) Probably add "party moves forward" or something to it too. Messages like "there is a damaging trap blah blah" just scroll up.
Automatically scrolling up is how it works at the moment, is this annoying?

I think it would be better if you could always scroll back to see what happened before (or at least until reloading if saving the entire log is a useless additional loading time and I think it would be), and especially in combat, I have not worked that yet and I don't know how much mandatory it is.
3) Add current character's encumbrance meter to loot screen.
Yes, thanks.
4)If you move to the square that pushes you back, you still can detect things that surround it. For example, when you move to (14,15,3) , "falling trap to the west" message sometimes appears. Probably it's feature.
Not exactly a feature, more like it works this way by default and I may not bother to change.

Nice mazes - spinner maze, teleport maze, door maze and invisible wall maze.
Just as I think that I really need to find some time to play THWG, you go and post something like this.
Yes, I fear that summarizes THWG very well.
 

Fowyr

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I may disagree with you on that one.
Even if I know how stupid not knowing when you're damaged is I probably won't add it. I like when your guy goes inconscient and you're like "Wait, what?"
Fair enough, UI is just a little small for me, but I always preferred big fonts, full screen mode and laughable resolutions like 320x200.
However I added a "Character : "closed"" when you bump onto a door you can't pass whatever the reason.
Great!
Automatically scrolling up is how it works at the moment, is this annoying?
Not really, it just looks slightly like something amiss.
 

CryptRat

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UI is just a little small for me, but I always preferred big fonts, full screen mode and laughable resolutions like 320x200.
It could fit when in full screen, since I personally think the font looks a little big but I prefer that way than the opposite.

Boring technical stuff :
The problem is that resolution is one technical part where perhaps what I'm doing is completely dumb, I wonder because games generally ask you to specify a resolution in the settings while I don't, the entire game screen stretches to your screen with resizing the different parts (log, ...) of the screen, resizing but not deforming the images nor the font, but maybe that's not what must be done, maybe the images has to be deformed and the screen must be reduced with black bars on top/bottom and on right/left based on stated resolution so it does not look bad on some particular native resolution.

EDIT :
Automatically scrolling up is how it works at the moment, is this annoying?
Not really, it just looks slightly like something amiss.
I fear that if there's a message for walking you won't pay attention anymore and could then miss when something important happens. At the beginning it didn't scroll and I like it better with scrolling but it's mostly just a feeling.
 
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Fowyr

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Technically speaking, every door or invisible wall is a 1x1 square, it's considerable diminishes 15x15 maps.
I understand that it is because you used xml SquareGrid and implementing new data types to make something like that:
YS_LAB_3.GIF

Is really too much work and requires rebuilding some parts of the engine from scratch.
I think it could be easily done using two bytes for each square, one of them codes four walls with two bits each (00 - empty, 01 - regular wall, 02 - invisible wall, 03- door) and other describes that is inside square (spinner, treasure and so on). Could easily make one direction walls and illusory walls by comparing two adjacent wall bytes.
:philosoraptor:

EoTB with its similar 1x1 doors just used larger maps:
mark2.gif


Just my two cents and empty musings, it was funny to think about things that I honestly not thought about for a long time. :lol:
 
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Fowyr

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CryptRat
Is there a way to unload weapon from inventory? Unload command or Reload - Empty weapon would be nice.
 

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