Achieving period-correct graphics in personal computer emulators

[schru]

I haven't had the time to look into Magpie yet, but I have gone back to CNC-DDraw from rusty's thread. I wasn't sure about its shader support because until recently I had to put up with a very weak integrated GPU (now instead I have a high-end integrated GPU, so it's still not so good for testing these things), but now that I had another look, it has integrated support for OpenGL shaders, with a few C.R.T. ones included. It does support basic scaling functions, although not as many as dgVoodoo, but the important thing is that it works with Infinity Engine games without any issues whatsoever (at least from what I've seen so far).

The included C.R.T. shaders scale worse with non-integer multiples of the original resolution in terms of how the scanlines look, but it should be possible to add other GLSL shaders, although in my case I've run into a problem where CNC-DDraw displays the message ‘Warning: using slow software rendering, please update your graphics card driver’, even though I don't have a problem running those shaders in other programs. At any rate, the included crt-lottes-fast-warp-no-bilinear.glsl looks fairly decent, even if the pattern created by Lottes's shader wasn't really meant to replicate PC monitors.

So, soulburner, ignore what I wrote about dgVoodoo and try CNC-DDraw, as well as Magpie of course, I just can't say how they compare for now.

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

Rincewind I'm intrigued by what you wrote about Infinity Engine games sounding better with EAX. Could you record a comparison, please? I'm a big fan of IE games, but I've never heard them with EAX on.

 

[Rincewind]

Rincewind I'm intrigued by what you wrote about Infinity Engine games sounding better with EAX. Could you record a comparison, please? I'm a big fan of IE games, but I've never heard them with EAX on.

Google YouTube is your friend:



This is the most comprehensive list of games with EAX support (some retarded admins deleted the Wikipedia page; this seems to be a mirror of it):

https://zims-en.kiwix.campusafrica....en_all_nopic/A/List_of_games_with_EAX_support

As you can see, ALchemy support is very spotty, and a large number of important games benefit from EAX enhancements (Thief 1-2, Half-Life, Revenant, Outcast, Beyond Good and Evil, Morrowind, Gothic 1-3, Populous: The Beginning, Rome: Total War, just to name some of my favourites).

If you're sensitive to good audio, EAX support is a must.

 

[Great Deceiver]

Some old games support EAX through modern OpenAL implementations (Thief, Stalker, etc.); some games need DSOAL on top (FEAR), etc.

Is there a way to get EAX through these methods in the original IE games? I know the EEs use OpenAL, but they're a travesty.

edit: just tested, DSOAL works just fine, EAX enabled in BG1.

 

[Rincewind]

Some old games support EAX through modern OpenAL implementations (Thief, Stalker, etc.); some games need DSOAL on top (FEAR), etc.

Is there a way to get EAX through these methods in the original IE games? I know the EEs use OpenAL, but they're a travesty.

rusty_shackleford shared this list in another thread, might be useful:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SyOw7D0H2ecGxzPsCFEFKwupU8LuazUrlkI-gVTpyhc/edit#

 

[Great Deceiver]

BG works fine with DSOAL, BG2 crashes. Haven't tried the IWD games or Torment yet.

edit: ALchemy works for BG2/IWD. You can make it work even if you don't have a Creative soundcard (https://community.pcgamingwiki.com/files/file/68-creative-alchemy/?tab=comments#comment-1174).

 

[J1M]

Any modern games appropriately using these scanline techniques to recreate the feel of older games?

The only times I have seen it tried it looks like it was made by someone who never saw a CRT.

 

[Ladonna]

But I'm too old for this crap... I just bought 4 SB Live! cards and 2 Audigy 4s, that should hopefully last me until the day I die. A man's gotta have a few spares, hey!

I use a Soundblaster Audigy RX on my PC. Does this still support EAX etc?

PS: I use mostly Linux with a dual boot of Windows 8.1 for anything too stubborn to run under Linux.

 

[Rincewind]

But I'm too old for this crap... I just bought 4 SB Live! cards and 2 Audigy 4s, that should hopefully last me until the day I die. A man's gotta have a few spares, hey!

I use a Soundblaster Audigy RX on my PC. Does this still support EAX etc?

PS: I use mostly Linux with a dual boot of Windows 8.1 for anything too stubborn to run under Linux.

Not too sure, but hardware EAX support was removed from Windows Vista and onwards. WinXP is the last OS with proper hardware EAX support for Creative cards for old games.

 

[deama]

Was thinking you could probably make a good set of CRT filters on something like linux's wayland compositor, it should be easy to create a hook, or probably there's already 3rd party tools that allow you to customize the output of wayland.

 

[deama]

Oh damn, while I was looking around, I found something called ShaderGlass, looks like it supports a lot of the filters from RetroArch:
https://mausimus.itch.io/shaderglass

 

[Machocruz]

People who claim that integer scaling 640x480 and 800x600 games looks good on LCDs either have no taste, are out of their minds, or they haven't seen how these games are supposed to look on a real CRT for a loooong long time (or ever!) Yes, display scaling usually looks like pure shit, bilinear interpolation performed by the GPU a little bit less shit, and integer scaling... a different kind of shit? I've tested many Win98 / early XP era 640x480 and 800x600 games side by side on my CRTs and with integer scaling on my IPS LCD screen (a quite good one, actually), and the results almost made me cry... These games designed on and for CRTs just look like shit on LCDs with sharp pixels. Plus many of them use dark tones a lot, so the lack of proper black levels even on good quality IPS panels makes everything look like a washed out mess. Forget about playing these games in a dark room either.

That is one of those things that makes me not want to look at the internet sometimes lol. I suspect a lot of those people are being disingenuous when they say sharp/raw pixels look good or even better. They don't want to change their position out of pride when new information is presented, invested for years in the idea that it's what retro looked like. They were assured they were "in the know".

And "better" by what standard? Take taste out of it, which I think they are disingenuous about, and it's still a fact that there is less visual information (of accurate shapes and contours, material rendering, lighting conditions etc.) in raw pixel projections, but what is gained? The Dracula comparison is always a good go-to, as there is an original, high-res illustration that exists that we can use as a key as to what they were intending to convey. The features, lines, blends, etc. are more coherent and refined in the CRT version i.e. true to the original. They can say the raw version looks sharper, but sharpness by itself is not a virtue as it just further pronounces what is off.

Anyway, keep fighting the good fight.

 

[Great Deceiver]

BG works fine with DSOAL, BG2 crashes. Haven't tried the IWD games or Torment yet.

edit: ALchemy works for BG2/IWD. You can make it work even if you don't have a Creative soundcard (https://community.pcgamingwiki.com/files/file/68-creative-alchemy/?tab=comments#comment-1174).

Just to report that Torment doesn't work with either DSOAL or ALchemy. I don't think there's a way to get EAX out of it in post-XP Windows. Some people even say that the EAX toggle in Torment never really did anything (no reverb), but although I bought it on release and played it on a Creative soundcard at the time on period-correct hardware, I can't remember if that was the case or not.

So, to recap, if you want EAX on modern Windows for old IE games:

BG 1: DSOAL (https://github.com/kcat/dsoal)
BG 2/IWD: ALchemy (this version works even for non-Creative soundcards: https://community.pcgamingwiki.com/files/file/68-creative-alchemy/?tab=comments#comment-1174)

 

[schru]

I have a Creative card and I can confirm that even after adding it in ALchemy the EAX option doesn't become available. It does work with Baldur's Gate.

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

BG works fine with DSOAL, BG2 crashes. Haven't tried the IWD games or Torment yet.

edit: ALchemy works for BG2/IWD. You can make it work even if you don't have a Creative soundcard (https://community.pcgamingwiki.com/files/file/68-creative-alchemy/?tab=comments#comment-1174).

Just to report that Torment doesn't work with either DSOAL or ALchemy. I don't think there's a way to get EAX out of it in post-XP Windows. Some people even say that the EAX toggle in Torment never really did anything (no reverb), but although I bought it on release and played it on a Creative soundcard at the time on period-correct hardware, I can't remember if that was the case or not.

So, to recap, if you want EAX on modern Windows for old IE games:

BG 1: DSOAL (https://github.com/kcat/dsoal)
BG 2/IWD/Torment: ALchemy (this version works even for non-Creative soundcards: https://community.pcgamingwiki.com/files/file/68-creative-alchemy/?tab=comments#comment-1174)

First you say Torment's EAX doesn't work with DSOAL or ALchemy. Then you say, for Torment: use ALchemy. Huh?

 

[Great Deceiver]

BG works fine with DSOAL, BG2 crashes. Haven't tried the IWD games or Torment yet.

edit: ALchemy works for BG2/IWD. You can make it work even if you don't have a Creative soundcard (https://community.pcgamingwiki.com/files/file/68-creative-alchemy/?tab=comments#comment-1174).

Just to report that Torment doesn't work with either DSOAL or ALchemy. I don't think there's a way to get EAX out of it in post-XP Windows. Some people even say that the EAX toggle in Torment never really did anything (no reverb), but although I bought it on release and played it on a Creative soundcard at the time on period-correct hardware, I can't remember if that was the case or not.

So, to recap, if you want EAX on modern Windows for old IE games:

BG 1: DSOAL (https://github.com/kcat/dsoal)
BG 2/IWD/Torment: ALchemy (this version works even for non-Creative soundcards: https://community.pcgamingwiki.com/files/file/68-creative-alchemy/?tab=comments#comment-1174)

First you say Torment's EAX doesn't work with DSOAL or ALchemy. Then you say, for Torment: use ALchemy. Huh?

Sorry, that was a failed edit. It doesn't work.

 

[schru]

Comparing system requirements for Baldur's Gate and Planescape: Torment, the former has support for DirectSound3D and EAX, while Torment only supports Dolby Surround:

https://www.mobygames.com/game/baldurs-gate/techinfo

https://www.mobygames.com/game/planescape-torment/techinfo

 

[Great Deceiver]

Comparing system requirements for Baldur's Gate and Planescape: Torment, the former has support for DirectSound3D and EAX, while Torment only supports Dolby Surround:

https://www.mobygames.com/game/baldurs-gate/techinfo

https://www.mobygames.com/game/planescape-torment/techinfo

Torment's Sound options screen has a Creative EAX option. Whether it was ever functional (even if you could enable it) is up for debate, but the fact is you can't even enable it on modern systems, even using the workarounds I've described.

 

[Rincewind]

Torment's Sound options screen has a Creative EAX option. Whether it was ever functional (even if you could enable it) is up for debate, but the fact is you can't even enable it on modern systems, even using the workarounds I've described.

The debate will end today, as I'm gonna install it on real HW and test it

 

[Great Deceiver]

Nice, see if there's any EAX reverb. I know the positional audio works even on modern systems.

 

[schru]

Comparing system requirements for Baldur's Gate and Planescape: Torment, the former has support for DirectSound3D and EAX, while Torment only supports Dolby Surround:

https://www.mobygames.com/game/baldurs-gate/techinfo

https://www.mobygames.com/game/planescape-torment/techinfo

Torment's Sound options screen has a Creative EAX option. Whether it was ever functional (even if you could enable it) is up for debate, but the fact is you can't even enable it on modern systems, even using the workarounds I've described.

Yes. As I wrote above, I did try it with ALchemy on a system with a Creative card, and the option still couldn't be enabled. ALchemy works fine with the other Infinity Engine games.

 

[Rincewind]

Oh damn, while I was looking around, I found something called ShaderGlass, looks like it supports a lot of the filters from RetroArch:
https://mausimus.itch.io/shaderglass

I was excited about it too when I found it, but it's super flaky to set it up and very unstable... At least that was my experience when I tried it a few times, so I filed it under "virtually useless".


As promised, I've tested Planescape Torment on real hardware with my SB Live! Value card, and it definitely does support EAX. With EAX enabled, you get environmental effects on the voiceovers (reverb); the rest of the music and the sound effects don't seem to be affected. I've only tested the mortuary at the start. I'd say it improves the atmosphere quite a lot, without EAX the voices are far too dry.

Positional audio works even with hardware EAX support disabled (e.g. the panning of the zombies groaning in the stereo spectrum).

I've made some recordings:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pJNvSX-y4ESuamgXDamM4TP-h1z8BBNc/view?usp=share_link

0:00 - EAX on (with music)
0:35 - EAX off (with music)
1:20 - EAX on (no music)
1:55 - EAX off (no music)

 

[Rincewind]

That is one of those things that makes me not want to look at the internet sometimes lol. I suspect a lot of those people are being disingenuous when they say sharp/raw pixels look good or even better. They don't want to change their position out of pride when new information is presented, invested for years in the idea that it's what retro looked like. They were assured they were "in the know".

Tell me about it...

For a while I commented out YouTube videos featuring DOS games recorded with the wrong aspect ratio (with square pixels instead of the correct 1:1.2 stretch) in the hope to educate people, but I've encountered so much hostility and indifference that these days I just shrug and move along... In any case, I'm writing this article series for those who actually do care, are open to new information, or don't have an oversized ego (or any combination of the three).

MobyGames doesn't give a fuck either, neither Hall of Light. Pretty sad, they're the perpetuators of nonsense, and should really know better and have higher standards.
This guy keeps churning out screenshots with 100% sharp pixels and no aspect ratio correction whatsoever on anything like there's no tomorrow. I'm gonna send him a link to my upcoming article about PC/DOS games, and I fully expect he'll tell me to fuck off :shrug:

Btw, if you think square pixels for 320x200 VGA is the worst, wait until you see DOS games stretched to 16:9 widescreen, with linear interpolation...

 

[Great Deceiver]

Thanks, EAX really does make a difference. I had hoped to use it for a replay of Torment - too bad.

 

[Rincewind]

Thanks, EAX really does make a difference. I had hoped to use it for a replay of Torment - too bad.

You can build a Win98 box with a CRT for cheap