Game News Age of Decadence Demo Released

[Grunker]

I've been playing some Assassin. The writing there is so much better than for the Praetor path. A shame really, I'm planning to play a Praetor for my first run-through of the final game.

 

[Gord]

For the record, at the moment I'm making no plans to play the demo for the simple reason that I've already decided to buy this game and I want it all to be completable on the first run.

Good luck, game can be very unforgiving.

Out of curiosity, are the reactions over at the ITS boards the same or different as those here? I haven't had a chance to check.

From the little I've read there, similar but more civilized.

 

[Infinitron]

While the exact implementation is a matter for debate, I think the bottom line is this:

In a game where dialogues are so extraordinarily important, you really need to have a highly unique, extraordinary skill-check system!

Don't be afraid to make something that's slightly abstracted and non-realistic (not to the level of Oblivion, of course). After all, turn-based combat isn't realistic either.

 

[Grunker]

I'm playing around with crafting now. How do I figure out what mats I need and how to I use them? I have a leather schematic I want to make.

 

[Running Fox]

So after all this TLDR, is there a chance that the final game starts showing me how many SP I need to pass a check and adjust accordingly mid-dialog?
I dont like reloading failed checks that I deserve to pass with my hard earned SP.

 

[Hellraiser]

I'm playing around with crafting now. How do I figure out what mats I need and how to I use them? I have a leather schematic I want to make.

It's pretty simple really. If you want to make a leather armor just decompose leather armors (buy some from the commercium vendor). Every time you decompose an item you get about 80-90% of the original item's weight in materials, steel items give steel, iron items iron etc. Then just pick an item type you want to make and then a material at the bottom (there is only one leather type obviously but you still need to pick it). After that pick "bonus traits" like hardened or masterwork, although you can't make hardened leather armors.

 

[The Brazilian Slaughter]

My first character was a default Loremaster based on Dagger/Block/Lore/Persuade/Streetwise.
Had some problems with Cassius, used my high PE to tell Dellar how to wipe out bandit camp, used my l33t loremaster skills to destroy the Aurelian outpost though the use of scienmajics, helped Lineos, used Mercato go get info, forged some proof against Imperial Guard, forced Mercato to join Antidas, then went to Maadoran thanks to Linos, but got cut down constantly by Mercato's hitmen. I think I didn't win because there was no "wait while I get ready" option to Linos, which means I can't apply all my precious skillpoints where I want and possibly win the fight. Got stuck, rolled a merc.

I noticed that there's a immenselly crappy merc build: Two-handed axe merc, no dodge no block, critical hit and streetwise. My idea was to make a heavily-armored axe-welding mercenary who wins battles by just tanking and then cutting enemies in twain easy and fast with his huge ax. Why its crap? Because you have no defenses except your armor, your armor fucks up your dodging (tried a dodger version earlier, sucked) and you have no blocking because you have no shield. I'm thinking I'm going to try it with high PER, see how it fares, but I don't have high hopes for this character. There should've been a parry skill, though that maybe would've been overpowered together with block.

Third character is a Sneak/Lockpick/Steal/Streetwise thief, it has been pretty fun so far. The text adventures are nice (though I think they need more description in some areas, to give the player more flavour for choices). I also like how the Thief deals with conmen and thieves.

Also, that part where some thief steal from you and starts to run shouting THIEF THIEF, then stops at a guard is hilarious if you're a thief, because you can use your background to tell the guard you're going to report it to Cado, is hilarious and actually made me laugh. In the world of AoD, thief who steals from thief doesn't get a hundred years of pardon.

One thing I got to say is that most checks at too binary. Suceed/Fail. Why not "Partial sucess/Partial failure/Epic Failure/Epic Sucess" to compensate/punish players who have not-quite-enough skill points/more than enough points.

Some "fall-back" skill checks exist, but they need more. I almost failed the Flavius quest with a Thief, yet it was my use of streetwise that saved me.

Also, I like how some failures give you bonuses. This is a good way to make the player more accepting of his failures. This is something necessary in RPGs. People DO learn with their mistakes, after all.

 

[vrok]

Did a hybrid Praetor. Got stuck because I couldn't pass skill checks at the mine and raider camp nor could I kill anyone under any circumstances.

Did a talky focused Praetor. Completed the demo with practically zero effort. Only spent skill points to succeed in said talky checks. Put the rest in sword and blocking to try killing off the raider leader to keep the gold for myself. Could barely even get him to wounded before he owned me despite wearing Praetor armor and either of the decent DR helms. Oh well I guess I have to keep my word since I'm such a useless Praetor that I can't put a sword through an exhausted, injured, sitting raider.

Did a combat Praetor. As in everything in to a weapon skill and block (dodge is terrible). Exactly everything. 10 str, enough dex for 9 ap for praetor armor, 8 per, 4 int/cha. Looted the Praetor armor and helm from the first fight. Did every combat encounter available to me for skill points. Only managed to complete the raider camp quest by using my high perception. Impossible to win through combat since there are essentially 0 tactical options available to make the fight doable, and my skills apparently aren't high enough despite putting everything into them. Shuddering, thinking that if I'd put less into per and more into con I would've been screwed out of skill points. Went to the mine, can't use stealth, lore or disguise, only combat. Tried it like 10 times so far and it can't be done. Takes too long to kill anyone so sooner or later they whittle me down to 0, despite abusing chokes and even managing to LOS glitch the xbowman so he could never hit me in my spot.

Basically, single character melee focused turn based is a boring joke. No companions of any kind and there's so few tactical options that you can't even do anything, besides a little more damage for more ap, and a little less damage for less ap or disarm for one round (lol). Give us 5-foot step, something, ANYTHING. All you can do pretty much is look around and try to hunt for more skill points, and apparently Praetors don't have enough quests available or skill points rewarded in the demo or something that makes it un-doable unless you're extremely lucky? It's pretty stupid.

Short version: Talky cool but too simple and exploitable, combat stupid. It's even worse because talking skills max out at 50 (at least etiquette, streetwise and diplomacy, not sure about lore/trade/etc) and combat skills do not, only increase in cost. So you're better off just maxing all talking skills than taking just some and half-assing combat skills for the rest because you can't kill anything anyway. Not to mention that the combat is bad, boring and better left avoided for the sake of your own sanity.

Also, the font and text formatting issues make me cry.

 

[Grunker]

Impossible to win through combat

This is a lie. As much as I'm skeptical of AoD's combat, this is complete bullshit. Combat should be managable for a Praetor purely focused on combat.

 

[vrok]

Impossible to win through combat

This is a lie. As much as I'm skeptical of AoD's combat, this is complete bullshit. Combat should be managable for a Praetor purely focused on combat.

It's not a lie since it was, in fact, impossible for my pure combat praetor to clear the raiders and the mine by himself. You're right though, it SHOULD be manageable, but it I'm sorry to tell you that it isn't. If our results differ it is because of choice of weapon, a resource for extra skill points I missed somehow, extreme luck, or something equally ridiculous, which is only further evidence that the combat is indeed terribly balanced and allows no margin for deviation.

 

[Infinitron]

Impossible to win through combat

This is a lie. As much as I'm skeptical of AoD's combat, this is complete bullshit. Combat should be managable for a Praetor purely focused on combat.

It's not a lie since it was, in fact, impossible for my pure combat praetor to clear the raiders and the mine by himself. You're right though, it SHOULD be manageable, but it I'm sorry to tell you that it isn't. If our results differ it is because of choice of weapon, a resource for extra skill points I missed somehow, extreme luck, or something equally ridiculous, which is only further evidence that the combat is indeed terribly balanced and allows no margin for deviation.

Describe your character build

 

[Hellraiser]

Did a combat Praetor. As in everything in to a weapon skill and block (dodge is terrible). Exactly everything. 10 str, enough dex for 9 ap for praetor armor, 8 per, 4 int/cha. Looted the Praetor armor and helm from the first fight. Did every combat encounter available to me for skill points. Only managed to complete the raider camp quest by using my high perception. Impossible to win through combat since there are essentially 0 tactical options available to make the fight doable, and my skills apparently aren't high enough despite putting everything into them. Shuddering, thinking that if I'd put less into per and more into con I would've been screwed out of skill points. Went to the mine, can't use stealth, lore or disguise, only combat. Tried it like 10 times so far and it can't be done. Takes too long to kill anyone so sooner or later they whittle me down to 0, despite abusing chokes and even managing to LOS glitch the xbowman so he could never hit me in my spot.

Bullshit, bullshit and bullshit.

1) You made the wrong assumption that max STR and using INT as the dump stat on a combat character is the right choice. It is not, for one you need as many SP as possible to get crafting to 50 along with block+one weapon skill ASAP. Ideally you want critical strike at 50 as well and block at 60 before you do the second IG quest, you can dump the remaining SP into the weapon skill. Lower STR to 6 or whatever is the "neutral" damage bonus STR level.
2) As mentioned in point one you need 50 crafting. That way you can make a masterwork hardened edge weapon which not only does more damage but also ignore some DR. That allows you to kill things a lot more easily as opposed to not doing damage at all with a non-crafted weapon. Also this allows you to make a hardened armor which is essential for the bigger fights.
3) If you want to kill the bandits easily then pick the negotiate option, then return to the camp and draw out the archers with a pilum or other thrown weapon from max range. Not everyone will chase you which will make it easier to kill everyone. You can just stand there blocking arrows with your shield until the archers run out of ammo and charge at you with their melee weapons.

 

[Tigranes]

Impossible to win through combat

This is a lie. As much as I'm skeptical of AoD's combat, this is complete bullshit. Combat should be managable for a Praetor purely focused on combat.

It's not a lie since it was, in fact, impossible for my pure combat praetor to clear the raiders and the mine by himself. You're right though, it SHOULD be manageable, but it I'm sorry to tell you that it isn't. If our results differ it is because of choice of weapon, a resource for extra skill points I missed somehow, extreme luck, or something equally ridiculous, which is only further evidence that the combat is indeed terribly balanced and allows no margin for deviation.

So... you're saying it couldn't have been that you are not using your resources efficiently, you are not distributing your skill points efficiently, or you are not employing effective tactics in the battlefield? Those possibilities just don't exist, and thus it is a fact that your praetor finds it impossible?

I mean, with AOD even 5 points in one skill can make a lot of difference (e.g. between 50 and 55 block); enemies act 'sensibly' but also rather predictably, making it possible to use terrain, movement points and other trappings of the TB system and the situation to your advantage; you make choices between small or large shields, heavier or lighter weapons (even within the same weapon category); crafting possibilities; type of attack possibilities, etc.

I just beat the mines with a combat-focused (but not entirely) mercenary which isn't that different from a praetor, and I had to try different things like swapping my crafted iron shamshir for a steel gladius, using an infantry shield or a buckler, trying to kill the one crossbowman at the start or retreating to a corner and hoping the enemies block the crossbowman's line of fire, trying to get aimed shots on the captain or whittling him down with reliable attacks, etc. There were times when I was down to 5hp within three turns, and times when I got pretty close then got knocked down or crit'd, and, of course, times when I made it through.

I'm interested to see where anyone draws the 'impossible' line though, because logically, it requires them to exclude certain possibilities that exist in the game for certain reasons.

Edit: I should mention that I had 10 STR, 8 DEX, 5 INT, and only 35 crafting. So no, it's not a case of "you must create superoptimal combat build". Heck, I had 60 block, 45 sword and 35 crit. And when killing the bandits, I had even less, I think 45 or 50 block.

 

[vrok]

Impossible to win through combat

This is a lie. As much as I'm skeptical of AoD's combat, this is complete bullshit. Combat should be managable for a Praetor purely focused on combat.

It's not a lie since it was, in fact, impossible for my pure combat praetor to clear the raiders and the mine by himself. You're right though, it SHOULD be manageable, but it I'm sorry to tell you that it isn't. If our results differ it is because of choice of weapon, a resource for extra skill points I missed somehow, extreme luck, or something equally ridiculous, which is only further evidence that the combat is indeed terribly balanced and allows no margin for deviation.

Describe your character build

Uh, I already did pretty much. This is after solving raider camp through high perception and with only the mine left.

10 str
7 dex
7 con
8 per
4 int
4 cha

50 spear (46 with helmet penalty)
55 block
Not a single skill point used on anything else.

Using:
Iron 1h spear
Buckler
DR5 Centurion iron helmet
DR8 Praetorian iron armor

 

[Hellraiser]

I would ditch the helmet for a hood, not a fan of the THC penalties. How many times do you see enemies aiming for your head? Especially with decent block which lowers their THC. And as I said you need crafting period.

 

[vrok]

Bullshit, bullshit and bullshit.

It wasn't an assumption. It was just another test run and this time for a pure combat praetor. A crafter is not a pure combat character so you're only pointing out that pure combat characters are not viable.

So... you're saying it couldn't have been that you are not using your resources efficiently, you are not distributing your skill points efficiently, or you are not employing effective tactics in the battlefield? Those possibilities just don't exist, and thus it is a fact that your praetor finds it impossible?

Considering the amount of tries and varying tactics that have went into it, yes, excluding distributing skill points efficiently, as the point was to try a pure combat Praetor. I'm not sure we're playing the same game if you see a large range of possibilities, the scope of available tactics and resources is laughably small.

 

[circ]

Ok I picked one of my int 7 merc test chars and decided to finally finish IG. Yeah, just me and one other guy alive. Then you're left with jack shit and have to fight two guards naked, but luckily dodge saved the day.
Also hilarious how you get a fucking iron helmet and iron lamellar. I had praetorian steel crafted earlier and that's about the only thing that saved my life. And that was with fucking block at 75. I could have been a cheesedick and thrown nets on the bitches. BUT FUCK THAT THIS SWORD FUCKS SHIT UP.

Anyway. It wasn't just an INT check there. There were several charisma checks. YEAH FUCK THIS SWORD AND SHIELD SHIT I'M GOING TO BE A MERC WITH INT AND CHARISMA AND TALK MYSELF TO DEATH. What the fuck.

That was before palace fight and fleeing from cage.

 

[Hellraiser]

It wasn't an assumption. It was just another test run and this time for a pure combat praetor. A crafter is not a pure combat character so you're only pointing out that pure combat characters are not viable.

You're crafting gear to be better at combat. Therefore it is a combat skill.

 

[Marsal]

50 spear (46 with helmet penalty)
55 block
Not a single skill point used on anything else.

This seems rather low skill point total. Did you do the "girl tries to rob you" or "guy tries to rob you by the market" or "guy robs you and then you catch him" quests? If all else fails kill 3 rich people by the palace and a couple of refugees to farm some SP. It is hard to do it without 60 block and 50 crafting or CS>45 (I think?) to kill the leader.

You criticism is valid, but I would prefer the combat stay challenging and you simply must adapt your build, solve the quest some other way or just leave it. It's not a mandatory quest AFAIK.

As a combat tip, try crafting a bunch of identical spears and using shield bash + throw. Might be of some use.

 

[Tigranes]

I'm pretty sure there are vignettes / quests you haven't touched, if that's all you were able to get with your skill points. Or maybe it's because praetors don't get the Feng quest(s) and you might have done a subpar job at previous quests lessening SP rewards? But I think in most cases you can get a lot more SP. Still, that's not substantially different from my build.

I agree that AOD isn't a particualrly diverse game tactically. But within the system it has, small differences really have big changes in how the combat turns out. E.g. I've seen my characters fare a lot better or worse depending on small things like wearing a helmet, big shield or small shield, fast attacks against this dude or not, attack the one with the axe first or the hammer first. It does make you watch carefully and consider those possibilities (e.g. I only have one shield, I'd like to maneuvre in the corner and try and get the guys without the axe to come first so my shield isn't shattered early, etc.)

That is not to say there aren't certain balance problems at the moment, though. I think 1H spears are one of the least effective in the demo build, and 2H spears would be if dodge was as good as block (though I've made a couple of dodge characters that could mow through enemies, too). And you do need more tactical options, and I suppose alchemy would introduce a little more.

 

[circ]

50 spear (46 with helmet penalty)
55 block
Not a single skill point used on anything else.

This seems rather low skill point total. Did you do the "girl tries to rob you" or "guy tries to rob you by the market" or "guy robs you and then you catch him" quests? If all else fails kill 3 rich people by the palace and a couple of refugees to farm some SP. It is hard to do it without 60 block and 50 crafting or CS>45 (I think?) to kill the leader.

You criticism is valid, but I would prefer the combat stay challenging and you simply must adapt your build, solve the quest some other way or just leave it. It's not a mandatory quest AFAIK.

As a combat tip, try crafting a bunch of identical spears and using shield bash + throw. Might be of some use.

You can also pay for the travelers at the gate and then talk to the guy. He's kinda hard to spot though but he really is near marketsquare. Anyway, that gives you 3 SP. There's a possible bug there though. You can demand 10fold repayment when you lend him the money, then bitch at him and follow him to his place. Kill his ass, get 3 SP for killing him and two other bitches, then leave, BUT DON'T REALLY LEAVE. You now get 3 extra SP. Now leave.

 

[Marsal]

That is not to say there aren't certain balance problems at the moment, though. I think 1H spears are one of the least effective in the demo build, and 2H spears would be if dodge was as good as block (though I've made a couple of dodge characters that could mow through enemies, too). And you do need more tactical options, and I suppose alchemy would introduce a little more.

They may be crap, but I had most fun playing shield + spear character. As pumping points into block skill is what the cool kids do, it gives you great shield bash to-hit chance. And every outcome works. You push the enemy, spear special can kick in. You knock the enemy down in square he was standing in? Time for a stab in the face! You knock him away? Just throw the spear at him (keep identical spears in inventory of course). THIS IS SPARTAAA!!!

 

[PrzeSzkoda]

I just beat the IG path again with a mixed-bag type of mercenary character (7 int, 7 char, str 6, con 6, per 6, dex 8, spear, block, some throwing, some persuasion, some trading, some streetwise). My combat stats were akin to those posted by vrok, so not that stellar. It was friggin' worth it. The game is ingenious, and I got promoted to Centurion, too! Too bad I did not get to have a look at my char-sheet afterwards. I want the full game NAO.

I was unable to beat the raiders quest apart from paying the ransom myself (I might have been able to kill 'em all, but I did not feel like it), and ignored the Aurelian Outpost quest completely (I guess people are complaining about the quest mostly because there are not that many major quests in the demo and you always want some sort of resolution - but I believe that, seeing the way the game rolls, leaving this quest unsolved for now should have interesting repercussions later on, when you deal with House Aurelian). Ignored most of 'em minor, SP-giving encounters (did only the gate and the faux-trading ambush). Point being - there are enough SPs to go around, without resorting to killing unarmed civilians.

 

[Grunker]

You also don't need a high crafting skill to craft some OK stuff.

 

[Tigranes]

I really enjoyed spears in the combat demo, and seem to remember the interrupt being much more frequent/effective, though my memory may be false.

I think if there were more SP to go around, people would be able to build optimal builds that can solve every quest, and most of them in the 'best' manner (powergaming wise).