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Preview Age of Decadence R4 Preview at GameBanshee

crawlkill

Kill all boxed game owners. Kill! Kill!
Joined
May 9, 2012
Messages
674

Family is debating pseudoscience, I am reading the 'dex to avoid the disaster of me stating my honest opinion about the hippie bullshit. My cousin is fighting the good fight though.

My family's line of the season so far has been "Uh, England is FAR south of Rome."

Anyway, I don't mean to be hostile; I like AoD, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't do things that make me cock my head. The fact that those things have to do with conversational success mechanics leading that observation be called gaming AIDS was a little inflammatory. =P
 

hiver

Guest
What the game needs is a bit more different options for all quest lines and backgrounds in Teron and some more small sub quests - which would provide the players with "more to do".
This will reduce the feeling of getting completely stuck - when you fail a single skill check. Which does not happen often at all, in the current game.
This additional content would play as players own choices and as additional choices inside some quests.
Many of the situations and smaller sub quests actually should count the total skill values in cases where double skill checks are required - while more important ones could keep hard checks of a specific skill points to succeed.
Which would not make those tasks easily handled at all - but it would make them less rigidly constrained. There are no common sense or narrative reasons for many of them to be so constrained and as rigid as they are now.
(it would also minimize crying from self entitlement butthurt cunts, and their butthurt - but it would not remove it entirely at all)
Total combined skill points should count for most of these cases. If the difference is just one point between two skills.



To solve the "inactive" feel of dialogue skills and such builds - the game should allow that diplomatic builds could employ, bribe, persuade, pay for or otherwise influence various guilds and their individual members to affect some combat scenarios and quests. (which need to be added or expanded for this)
In this way - a diplomatic build could still engage in some combat encounters and situation - by recruiting bodyguards or mercenaries, or assassins, or thieves - to achieve different results for him.
- which would then alter and diversify individual playthroughs. -

Need someone killed or some thugs handled? Hire yourself a Boatman of Styx - IF you can. Create some diversity in consequences based on some basic difference in setting up such arrangement - like different states of success depending on how much money you got, to hire better help or just street thugs. Or based on levels of your persuasive skills and dialogue choices.

Need an important document? Or a personal object to plant as evidence in another planned situation? Hire a good thief to do it for you - mkay? (have the game offer you cheaper thieves to hire - with a few smaller consequences for your well being and general health)
Merchant should be able to hire help. Praetor should be able to deal with things "beneath" his stature by ordering or influencing others to do it for him.
Loremaster might need to clear away an obstacle to some ancient knowledge? Hire Boatmen of Styx to send those obstacles across the river!
Or make a deal with other factions to "help out" or provide services for their help.

Individual members we get to meet in the guilds should be used more as actors for these setups.
This would give the players a feel of being a "manipulator" class - by directly giving them more active agency in what is happening, through usage of their character skills.
 

Kem0sabe

Arcane
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Messages
13,208
Location
Azores Islands
A lot of long winded rambling trying to justify one point of view or another.

Four simple facts about Age of Decadence...

1. It runs better, is smoother and looks better than any of these crpg betas we are currently playing;

2. Its more fun to roleplay (we are talking about roleplaying games right?) than any other crpg done in the last 10 years;

3. it has the best turned based combat on a crpg since JA2/ToEE;

4. Is probably the most reactive crpg made till now.

I think, feel, that these facts are undisputed by most crpg fans, 2,3 and 4 alone make the release of AoD something that the release of Wasteland 2, Original Sin or Blackguards can never be... benchmarks that we will be pointing out to for years to come.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,761
Location
Copenhagen
Clearly. However, is it an actual problem or merely a preference? If it's a problem, how would you suggest to fix it?

We gave it a lot of thought. We went with 2-3 skills to fix "a single skill to win" issue. We went with total and min/max requirements to fix the 'arbitrariness'. We went with a fairly large number of options to support different builds and open new branches. We went with different non-skill-based options to keep the player in control (like deciding whether or not to betray the assassins guild in the first two quests or how to deal with Mercato and his men (have them killed or convince/force them to join Antidas). We lowered the checks' difficulty to give you more options, support jacks, etc.

I'm not sure what else can be done, short of removing skills and checks and calling it an adventure game, but as long as the checks remain people will complain that they were a point short and would feel like they have to save scum.

Here's a thought from Christmas-land:

Accept that through extraordinary effort and exceptional stubbornness, you and your team have managed to produce a visionary game that dares to attempt an RPG paradigm shift. The final product is flawed and far from perfect, but the honest effort makes it shine like only belief and hard work can. The lessons learned, both in terms of what works and what doesn't, will be useful in your personal future and for other RPGs, even if the game itself will merit hugely different reactions. Just like other broken stars like Arcanum.

^ if that is the epitaph of Age of Decadence, is that so bad? I mean, it is the nature of such games that they will be hated by many and loved by some. If that is your legacy - a cracked diamond - then I'd say it's a crowning achievement that any small team should be proud of. Despite what (legitimate) criticism might remain.

Just a thought.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,044
Accept that through extraordinary effort and exceptional stubbornness, you and your team have managed to produce a visionary game that dares to attempt an RPG paradigm shift. The final product is flawed and far from perfect, but the honest effort makes it shine like only belief and hard work can. The lessons learned, both in terms of what works and what doesn't, will be useful in your personal future and for other RPGs, even if the game itself will merit hugely different reactions. Just like other broken stars like Arcanum.

^ if that is the epitaph of Age of Decadence, is that so bad?
Not at all. I've never thought or claimed that the game is perfect and beyond reproach. I'm merely discussing design not trying to convince people that AoD is the best game ever.
 

Invictus

Arcane
The Real Fanboy
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
2,790
Location
Mexico
Divinity: Original Sin 2
Yeah well Kemosabe I don't know if the other posters have an agenda but I post here my observations in the hope of doing some good to a game which is pretty much as you described in the hopes of further tweaking the system to make it even better.
If such suggestions are taken as critisims or meaning that the game is a popamole blasphemy then that couldn't be further from the truth...I guess most of us wouldn't post if we didn't care but to be honest if I have to be one of the circlejerk homies for my opinions to even merrit an acknowledgment then I guess that AoD is the best gmae evah and no further changes are required to make it not only a critical but a comercial masterpiece it deserves to be.
Hey fuck the Steam guy who buys this on an impulse if he doesn't know better and good riddance for belonging in popamole land because hey this is a game only for the hardcore crowd right?
 

laclongquan

Arcane
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
1,870,184
Location
Searching for my kidnapped sister
Clearly. However, is it an actual problem or merely a preference? If it's a problem, how would you suggest to fix it?

We gave it a lot of thought. We went with 2-3 skills to fix "a single skill to win" issue. We went with total and min/max requirements to fix the 'arbitrariness'. We went with a fairly large number of options to support different builds and open new branches. We went with different non-skill-based options to keep the player in control (like deciding whether or not to betray the assassins guild in the first two quests or how to deal with Mercato and his men (have them killed or convince/force them to join Antidas). We lowered the checks' difficulty to give you more options, support jacks, etc.

I'm not sure what else can be done, short of removing skills and checks and calling it an adventure game, but as long as the checks remain people will complain that they were a point short and would feel like they have to save scum.

Dont forget another approach and its obvious shortcoming too.

You can add some more sidequests for people to do beside the main quest. Or hell, just an alt story quests beside. BUT. By doing them the player get more SP that make solving MQ easier. THEN, it lead to a familiar situation is that you can do all sidequest before you do the MQ and no problem with SP shortage after all. Easier the game, so to speak.

So yeah, I am not on the camp of adding more content. It could bite our asses more than we know or want. Keep going, VD
 

Tommy Wiseau

Arcane
Joined
Apr 7, 2012
Messages
9,424
My thoughts are similar to what others have posted. Choices feel very constrained around the attributes you choose to increase, non-combat skills are strictly used in dialog and I felt that should have been avoided, and if you choose to specialize in non-combat skills you're locked out of virtually most combat encounters — at least if you want to reap the benefits that come with having good-to-great non-combat skills, otherwise you get the worst of both worlds, in my opinion — which has never happened to me in the RPGs I've played. Even a wimpy character could take down some things in Fallout or Arcanum with a moderate increase in skills; yes, they were easy games in comparison but Age of Decadence tips the scale too much in the other direction, in my view. Those game always had something you could fall back to if your character was too weak for something, and they awarded experience points pretty liberally (perhaps too much you could say, but still).

The way plot threads are interwoven depending on which factions you choose to work for is cool, but my playthroughs for Steam's early access were cut a bit shorter than I expected after reaching Maadoran. The longest side-quest chain was probably fighting in the gladiator's arena, which players who put a considerable amount of points in their non-combat skills at character creation are unlikely to see to completion. The thing is that most of the other side-quests (that is, excluding faction quests) usually have some form of combat encounters or physical stat requirements too (fighting the raiders, working as a bouncer in a tavern, even exploring the Abyss requires a good CON rating.) Choosing a different gender does little to impact the game, from what I've seen.

The core combat mechanics are pretty solid but, well, appreciating them won't come easy for most characters. The game has some good weapon porn. I think the main plot's focus on so many different faction branches at once may have harmed the game in other areas. I'd suggest giving the player some optional lower-level encounters with a more manageable learning curve that aren't related to major choices/turning points in any faction-related plot (which require above-average stats for a good outcome) or just giving players some choices that aren't stat-based (those exist, you know?), but again, that's just my opinion.
 

GrimoireFTW

Learned
Joined
Jan 26, 2013
Messages
192
Why would anyone want to play this kind of game without combat anyways... go play some fucking zoo tycoon and shut the hell up. Ever think its your shitty view of how the game should be played that's making it not fun? hmm I want to play a game where I don't become mighty and powerful, I just want to talk, have some conversations, avoid a fight wherever possible because Im a pacifist. That devastating gladius of titan slaying?? keep it I don't want any sweet gear. Go read a book faggot! I mean seriously what do people expect from a game like this? a merchant simulator? give me a fucking break...

oh and merry x-mas
 

Goral

Arcane
Patron
The Real Fanboy
Joined
May 4, 2008
Messages
3,570
Location
Poland
(...)
Need someone killed or some thugs handled? Hire yourself a Boatman of Styx - IF you can. Create some diversity in consequences based on some basic difference in setting up such arrangement - like different states of success depending on how much money you got, to hire better help or just street thugs. Or based on levels of your persuasive skills and dialogue choices. (...)
That is a very good idea IMO. On one of my first playthroughs as a non-combat oriented character I went to The Boatmen to hire someone to kill Cassius since I empirically knew that he's too strong for me. Sadly, it wasn't possible. It also makes one wonder why would Feng give such an important task to some stranger or (in case of a loremaster or someone with low condition/strength which should be apparent just by looking at someone) someone he knows will have difficulty completing it. Sure, assassins MO is easy to spot (usually a dagger in the ribs or a bolt in the neck) but that doesn't stop him from hiring the player who plays as an assassin. It's also rather unrealistic that an intelligent man (unless he has good memory only but a slow CPU) would go with a stranger to an abandoned house - but that's just nitpicking. The most important thing is that it's fun and that characters still behave within reason.

Anyway, I support the idea of hiring other factions to do the job too difficult for the player but with certain risks involved, e.g. thieves could sell you out (once they're caught for example) or an assassin would fail and you would still lose your money (because you didn't give them all the facts).
 

hiver

Guest
Something like that yes.

With a VERY BIG difference that i think AOD is a fing great game - and what i suggest is aimed at making it better, not changing it into some other type of RPG or suggesting things that would make it play as something else.

These more active things you could achieve with diplomatic builds would NOT mean you would do all the combat scenarios - as a combat focused character will.
These opportunities should be much rarer. And basically no more complicated or worse then getting the bandits to attack the Aurelian Outpost. Plus they would give you only CIVIC skill points - so you couldnt use them to make a hybrid character.

Early Teron didnt have any side quests or things to see. With fleshing it out and adding more smaller content - the whole game improved.
So adding a bit more sub quests and a few more options here and there - follows the same upward curve in the design of the game.
It wont make the game any easier - at all. Just a bit less constrained.
Other more important skill checks on critical path for every background can be made higher to compensate and balance out the additional skill points a player would get from this additional content.



Same goes for suggestion of accepting the total amount of skill points in SOME cases of double skill checks - in side quests. Depending on the narrative and setups of those side quests.
Certainly one point of difference in two skills should not mean direct failure, especially in cases of smaller sub or side quests.


I would also suggest that CHARISMA influences this particular part of mechanics.
(im not sure if it would work but the idea came up to me yesterday so im just going to throw it in)

So, a character with high charisma would get more leeway in succeeding in these sub quests where double skills are checked. While a character with 10 in Charisma may even get a straight point reduction across all skill checks.
It kind of make sense - for a high Charisma build, doesnt it?
It stands to reason that a charismatic character would have an easier time of persuading people - with the combination of skills, while a low charisma character would have skill checks as they are now.
It would make charisma a really influential attribute - unlike what it is now.
 

Coyote

Arcane
Joined
Jan 15, 2009
Messages
1,149
Disclaimer: Haven't played the latest demo or paid close attention to most recent AoD threads because at this point I'd rather wait until I can experience the game as a whole.

  • Stop doing all skill and item use in dialogue. Adopted the Fallout approach of using skills and items on objects and characters in the environment to create that sense the player is actually doing something, even if ultimately that something is "unnecessary". Basic example from one quest: player finds stone, has to combine with a rope to create a lodestone, then has to use that on a well itself to pull up the hidden item - currently this is all done in dialogue.

It's all because AoD lacks non-combat mechanics (except for the skill checks, but bare skill checks barely count as mechanics nowadays - it's like saying that you can still call Pong a "game"). No mechanics at all. And that explains everything. Honestly, I myself get pretty annoyed when people compare this game with fallout (because, in reality, it should be compared to Darklands), but let's look at F2's mechanics (hardly brilliant, mind you - the game was developed quickly and by immature designers) and their implementation. So we have this Metzger-Vic-Slavers situation and we want to solve that early and violently. Since you can't beat them honestly at early levels, what can you do mechanically wise?

-snip-

See? Game has some mechanics and allows the free usage of them, suddenly, tons of different approaches is present.

Quoting these because they line up with my main criticism of what I've played of AoD. If I had to pick one area out of the ones mentioned in this thread that I'd most love to see improved upon in a sequel, it would be structuring non-combat mechanics such that the focus is more on players coming up with and executing solutions on their own and there's a greater potential for emergent solutions. Relegating the bulk of non-combat interactions in the game to dialogue selections limits the player in any given situation to the solutions that the designer has provided;* perhaps more importantly, it makes this limitation very salient to the player, who is literally presented with a list of possible solutions. Even if you simply took the exact same solutions and implemented mechanics such that they were accomplished through player-initiated actions along the lines of how skills/items are used in Fallout, that alone would constitute a great improvement IMO.

* On its own, reworking the use of non-combat skills to a more Fallout-like system doesn't necessarily remove this limitation, but it does at least raise the possibility. Besides, to make an analogy: a game may only recognize one answer to a riddle regardless of whether the player selects that answer from a list of dialogue options or is expected to type it in himself, but I'd still argue that the latter is generally more interesting than the former (unless it's a poorly written riddle to begin with).

Take the lockpicking scenario VD brought up earlier. You could add more dialogue options to any situation involving lockpicking so that the player can choose to pour acid on the lock, pick up the chest as a whole and try to sneak with it at a penalty, and whatever other solutions one might think of. And that would be a nice way of adding some additional options for dealing with a locked chest, as long as you give them some downsides to avoid rendering the lockpick skill a pointless investment. But IMO a better option that achieves the same results would be to set up some basic mechanics along the lines of...

  • Sneaking skill - the higher the skill, the closer the player can get to NPCs while sneaking without being spotted.
  • Lockpick skill - every (locked) chest/door has some value that you must meet or exceed in order to pick its lock.
  • Damage - by doing enough damage to a locked chest/door, you can bust them open. But chests/doors also have damage resistance so that your STR 3 character can't just whittle away at them with a dagger, and there may also be the potential to damage goods.
  • Noise - attacking a solid object with a weapon will generate a lot of noise, attracting nearby NPCs who come to investigate (or raise the alarm if it doesn't make sense for them to investigate personally). Lockpicking is quieter, of course. Using something like acid doesn't make much noise, but acid is hard to come by/expensive/doesn't work on some locks.
  • Encumbrance - encumbrance provides a penalty to stealth checks and causes your character move slower (so that grabbing some big-ass chest and just running past all the guards isn't viable), and most chests are quite bulky and heavy.
  • Disguise skill - chests and other items that the character has no business carrying around and which are too large to hide on one's person are flagged to cause disguise checks to fail automatically.

And then set default values for chests/doors and modify them as needed (thick metal doors have higher damage resistance than flimsy wooden ones, etc.), and let the player go wild. This not only gives the player a greater sense of agency when dealing with a locked chest/door by enabling him to discover solutions on his own, but may also increase the player's actual agency by enabling creative use of these mechanics - such as making a lot of noise near a heavily guarded room so that the player can slip in from another direction when the guards come to investigate.

Think I may be going in circles at this point, so let me just conclude by adding that I also agree completely with Kem0sabe's and Grunker's posts earlier on this page. The Iron Tower team has made something truly unique and special in AoD, and you should be proud of your creation.
 

Pope Amole II

Nerd Commando Game Studios
Developer
Joined
Mar 1, 2012
Messages
2,052
The problem with this design (the way I see it) is that it's a one trick pony. Got that strength implant? Start looking for things you can move to uncover vents or allow you to jump over things. Like vents, basically. Travel through the vent for the first time - "how exciting, so wow." Then you realize that vents are conveniently located everywhere and that it doesn't really matter which route you take.

ITT we learn that Deus Ex is repetitive and unexciting game, no wow.

Sorry, Vince, but even such design is a one-trick pony, I'd take it ten times over a dead horse that your creation is.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,044
The problem with this design (the way I see it) is that it's a one trick pony. Got that strength implant? Start looking for things you can move to uncover vents or allow you to jump over things. Like vents, basically. Travel through the vent for the first time - "how exciting, so wow." Then you realize that vents are conveniently located everywhere and that it doesn't really matter which route you take.

ITT we learn that Deus Ex is repetitive and unexciting game, no wow.
It was a pretty cool game but not because you could jump over obstacles, move heavy objects, and crawl through vents.

Sorry, Vince, but even such design is a one-trick pony, I'd take it ten times over a dead horse that your creation is.
By all means...
 

DeepOcean

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,404
  • Stop doing all skill and item use in dialogue. Adopted the Fallout approach of using skills and items on objects and characters in the environment to create that sense the player is actually doing something, even if ultimately that something is "unnecessary". Basic example from one quest: player finds stone, has to combine with a rope to create a lodestone, then has to use that on a well itself to pull up the hidden item - currently this is all done in dialogue.
Exactly, adding a little of light adventure puzzles to back the stat checks can turn out a boring let's click the option the character has the most skill points to let the player actually do something. This example, you use the climb skill on the rope (create a sense of interaction with the ambient, something AoD lacks a bit) instead of clicking on a static window disconnected from the game world.
 

J_C

One Bit Studio
Patron
Developer
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
16,947
Location
Pannonia
Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
  • Stop doing all skill and item use in dialogue. Adopted the Fallout approach of using skills and items on objects and characters in the environment to create that sense the player is actually doing something, even if ultimately that something is "unnecessary". Basic example from one quest: player finds stone, has to combine with a rope to create a lodestone, then has to use that on a well itself to pull up the hidden item - currently this is all done in dialogue.
Exactly, adding a little of light adventure puzzles to back the stat checks can turn out a boring let's click the option the character has the most skill points to let the player actually do something. This example, you use the climb skill on the rope (create a sense of interaction with the ambient, something AoD lacks a bit) instead of clicking on a static window disconnected from the game world.
Pretty much this. But I'm afraid this "feautre" was a victim of VD's design philiosophy, just like the lack of walkiing from one place to another, and instead teleporting the player. I wonder if they could restore it, just like putting walking back into the game.
 

Severian Silk

Guest
Would awarding 1/2 EXP for failing quests help? That would give you some skill points to spread around at the very least.
 

Elhoim

Iron Tower Studio
Developer
Joined
Oct 27, 2006
Messages
2,880
Location
San Isidro, Argentina
In general we are adding more environment interaction and we only use teleporting either as a convenience option OR when we have scripting/scenarios limitations (for example, some of the places like Antidas' dungeon don't exist on the gameworld, so we take you to a prop area to talk to Sohrab and back. Or for when it would be a scripting mess to have the player running around after some particular events).

Now, regarding the use of dialogue options for doing things, there are several reasons for that, one technical and one creative:

- Implementing other systems takes quite some time with only one programmer who's also working on another game.
- The dialogue systems is extremely flexible and allows us to come up with different scenarios and actions fast and easily.

Considering the small size of our team, we definitely value solutions that saves us time. Plus, I like listing of options that you can take. We can hide the options behind inventory movements, giving the illusion that you can use any item on any object, but in the end, you will only be able to do what the developers scripted. In general we are more "honest" in that regard, and it's the way we want to play our game. Yes, we are making a game we want to play, not one that sells, or fits everyone's expectations.

Now, I fully agree that some of the actions can be folded inside some common systems and made more complex and free form. As a matter of fact, since we are all dreaming about the perfect AoD, if we had more money to hire a couple extra full time programmers, we want to make a turn based sneaking system, with AI reacting to noise, armor and lighting conditions affecting your sneaking skill, a more interesting lockpicking system than just clicking lockpick on a door, sneak silent kills...

Basically, when we design the game we go like this:

- We create the situations, and then we start adding options through dialogue.
- When some of the actions repeat themselves in many situations, we try to create a system out of it.

So, to summarize...

- We will be adding more environment interactions like the ones of Feng's house, the blacksmith, Camilla's house, etc.
- We are adding alchemy ingredients around the locations that you can harvest with your alchemy skill (some of them are already in Teron in the latest version).
- We will be opening up some areas for interaction like the mine, especially the interior (damn, how would I love to have there that TB sneak system I talked about before...).
- We will be making a lockpicking system with different lockpicks, oils and acids, based from all the situations we created in dialogue.
- We will continue to make many options dialogue based. Personally, I found Darius Tomb to be a good mix of environment interaction and dialogue options.
- We will not add "use any object on" interactions. It would be a fake freedom, since those things would only work where we script them. We will definitely try to make a couple systems more, but we won't be making direct item use since we don't have the environments to support that design.
 

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