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TBS Age of Wonders 1 & 2

Discussion in 'Strategy and Simulation' started by BING XI LAO, Apr 6, 2020.

  1. BING XI LAO Age of Wonders fanboy Patron

    BING XI LAO
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    There's another issue, which is the undead heroes can sumon a bunch of neutral-alignment earth elementals onto their own hex, then abandon the undead cause because they're pissed off at the neutral-aligned Elementals. Best to just ensure every spellcaster in that area is with a full stack of evil units.
     
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  2. octavius Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    octavius
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    Is this due to the modding of the racial attitudes? Or does is it (neutral elementals deserting Undead and High Men) happen in vanilla too? I can't remember myself.
     
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  3. BING XI LAO Age of Wonders fanboy Patron

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    Happens there too I think, the mod does make it possible to summon more elementals earlier however.
     
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  4. octavius Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    Maybe the elementals' alignments should be set to None instead of Neutral?
     
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  5. BING XI LAO Age of Wonders fanboy Patron

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    In my opinion they should be retained at Neutral, since that's congruent with the elementals in the Elric of Melnibone books from which the campaign's cosmology is heavily inspired.
    Also, I would rather have summons be temporary in nature - whether through high upkeep relative to initial cost, or through bad morale, it matters not.
     
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  6. octavius Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    Funny, I was going to write something like "I'm not an Age of Wonders lore master, but I think the elementals don't care about Good and Evil, and are no instruments of The Balance"
    Anyway, they only become temporary for the Undead and High Men AI players. The other races avoid deserting, while a human player will just summon dragons instead.
    But I like the idea of temporary summons. I guess that's what I like about your mods; many good ideas. But "advertising" them as MP mods made me initially ignore them.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
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  7. BING XI LAO Age of Wonders fanboy Patron

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    I was thinking a bit more about justfying Neutral-aligned elementals, just expanding on what I said earlier:
    In the final Elric of Melnibone book, the elementals are screwed if the world becomes Chaotic, because they represent an orderly matrix of essences: and they are also screwed if it becomes Lawful, because they are nonetheless magical.
    The end of the final Elric book sees the world become less magical and it becomes entirely human-dominated, much like the Highmen agenda in Age of Wonders world of "Athla"; we may well conjecture that Elementals would fare similarly ill under Undead domination.

    And as for the game mechanics side of things, unit disloyalty is the most pertinent manifestation of the whole relations/alignment mechanic, and I like to expand the relevance of mechanics, not reduce them.
     
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  8. The Brazilian Slaughter Arcane

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    My memory is a bit shit, but ins't there a "True Neutral" alignment in AOW? AFAIK that's what Syrons got. Not sure if it makes them desert.
     
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  9. vota DC Liturgist

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    It gives a bigger morale penalty against non neutral races.
     
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  10. octavius Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    For SP "None" is the only alignment that makes sense. It's just too stupid when a Highman hero summons Air Elementals, and then some turn later quits because of alignment differences. Alternatively, if it's possible make the summon elemental spells lvl 4, so the Highmen and Undead won't be able to research them with default magic spheres.
     
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  11. BING XI LAO Age of Wonders fanboy Patron

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    It is possible, after all I only recently moved them from tier4 to tier3. Assigning spell sphere/tier is easily done in DevEd. As is unit alignment. But you know that right? Happy to share my modding knowledge with any of the hex editing things too.
     
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  12. octavius Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    Ah yes, I did think it was strange those spells were lvl 3.
    Anyway, I think making them lvl 3 and making the elementals of Neutral alignment is a very bad mix. The only thing so far I really don't like about your mod.
     
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  13. BING XI LAO Age of Wonders fanboy Patron

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  14. BING XI LAO Age of Wonders fanboy Patron

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    Figured out what was causing the "-22 levelup bug" and fixed it. I'd given Haste a levelup cost, which was being incurred if you cast it on your heroes. Also updated the mod.
    EDIT: it has a new bug now, that might stop you fighting battles offensively... going to have to delay the update
    Edit: updated with just the -22 bugfix and some other stuff, shouldn't include the new bug.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
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  15. BING XI LAO Age of Wonders fanboy Patron

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    K, now a proper patch is uploaded.
     
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  16. octavius Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    Did you do anything with the Elementals?

    BTW, having played the mod quite a bit now, I think the Fire Musket is rather OP now. It has high AT and DAM, two shots and long range, making it well worth spending 24 skill points on (OTOH Knights are no longer the only 3rd tier Human unit worth building). Excellent for Dragon hunting. Same with Doom Gaze, or maybe even more, if your main enemy are not the Undead.

    Extra Strike for only 8 skill points is rather cheap, I think.

    No Wall Crushing skill for heroes?

    Trolls are now a serious pain in the butt with their Hurl Boulder skill. I hate enemies with that skill; so hard to cover against, and it seems to hit more often that it should. Also makes the Beetles less sexy. OTOH with Physical Protection I guess the Beetles are good for throwing against lower tier mobs with only physical attacks.

    But this is mostly nitpicking.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
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  17. BING XI LAO Age of Wonders fanboy Patron

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    Been trying to prune redundant and semi-redundant skills from levelup just to make the list less unwieldy and overlong. So Heroes can't get Wall Crushing, but can get Wall Climbing and Hurl Boulder.
    Elementals - I think I tweaked them only slightly (aside from being so much easier to summon), although the Water Elemental did get Extra Strike and Lifestealing (ie stealing water in the form of blood)
    Fire Musket might have to be weakened or made more expensive, but at least Musketeers get to exist now.
    Same with Trolls, Hurl Boulder means goblins have a ranged t3 and the troll is better than before.
    Unsure if Beetles are too weak.
     
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  18. octavius Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    I don't think the Beetles are too weak, but the new Trolls change the whole dynamics of Goblin warfare when you can have units breaching the wall from a safe distance.

    NM, I forgot Goblins still have Catapults. A bit slower than Trolls, but not enough to make a big difference.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2021
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  19. octavius Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    It's bloody annoying that you can't set as Victory Condition to kill a specific hero.
    After four weeks of playing Coming of the Dread Lord (including at least one week of false starts), the Dread Lord now appeared on turn 56 using the the map BING XI LAO edited, instead of turn 65. This is merely of academic interest now, since I was already in the mopping up phase, so it was actually a good thing.
    The game should have ended when I killed the Dread Lord. Instead one of the AI players broke the alliance, which would have forced me to mop up another faction, which was the last thing I was in the mood for now, what with the map maker forcing no Leaders on map.

    Some of the omissions in Age of Wonders is truly puzzling.
    Why no more VCs, like in the HoMM games?
    Why can't AI players explore lairs and ruins, pick up items or attack Independents? I can understand a weak AI, but there's really no excuse for these things.
     
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  20. BING XI LAO Age of Wonders fanboy Patron

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    It was the reason I hesitated so long to give Troll Hurl Boulder.
     
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  21. vota DC Liturgist

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    Troll was always the superior choice in combat, now beetlee lack a role except digging underground and exploring.
     
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  22. octavius Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    Well, it does get physical protection, so good against groups of low level units and as meat shield against missile attacks.
     
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  23. octavius Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    BING XI LAO, some problem with the old Lord of the Rings map using your mod.
    The Undead leader, Sauron, has som Goblin and Orc troops that desert, despite having "Okay" morale, like stacks of 8 Wyvern Riders. The Undead are neutral vs Orcs and Goblins. I thought units deserted only if having Poor or Terrible morale?

    I assume the racial diplomacy modifiers is one of the things you need to hex edit to mod?
     
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  24. BING XI LAO Age of Wonders fanboy Patron

    BING XI LAO
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    Maybe it's because they're on Wasteland terrain, but the Undead may also have migrated Goblin or Orc towns - it does that now because AI migrates races that only have neutral relations.
    As it happens, I used Race Relations as the example in my quick hex editing guide:
    https://aow.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/forums/display.cgi?action=ct&f=14,2663,,60
     
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  25. octavius Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    It's not the terrain, but Sauron owns several Orc and Goblin cities, so I guess the goblins did not accept the population replacement (good for them).

    I was able to edit the Orcs, Goblins and Undead to be Polite to each other.
    But maybe I should just edit all the values back to vanilla values to avoid more old maps getting broken.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2021
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