Amazon ships an MMORPG - New World

[rusty_shackleford]

The only MMO I've played where cosmetic shop items haven't ruined the atmosphere is SWTOR because they've done a surprisingly good job of keeping all the items canonical, likely due to a combination of outside pressure + what SWTOR players actually want.
But an MMO being ruined by cash shop before it even launches? That's new.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

ACTION. COMBAT. IS. BAD. FOR. MMOS. It reduces the social/community building aspect of the game. Tab targeting combat is the best kind of combat for MMOs.

Why? Because it's easier to text chat with tab targeting, easier to chat socially, easier to chat for co-ordination.

What's that I hear you say? Use voice? Maybe once I'm in a guild and with friends, until then, fuck off.

I don't like using voice chat. I don't play video games to listen to other people talking.
I also don't necessarily agree that action combat is bad though, Warframe is a good example of a game that has builtin VoIP but nobody has it enabled. Good UI design + ability for players to mark things does away with the need for voice chat outside of things like e.g., WoW raiding on higher difficulties where the voice chat is used for coordinating mechanics.
In Warframe the player can place a marker on anything and what the marker shows other players depends entirely on context of what was tagged. So, for example, if an item dropped I can just put my marker on it(via hotkey) and everyone in my group will see on their UI where the item is and what item it is. Pretty much anything can be marked, including arbitrary positions(just places a generic marker.) Very handy, most MMOs could use a similar feature.

 

[Myobi]

Warframe is not an MMO.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Warframe is not an MMO.

so?

 

[Myobi]

Warframe is not an MMO.

so?

nvm, though you were still talking about the action combat when you mentioned it, my bad.

fucking hell, got over 1000 hours in it and didn't even knew VoIP was actually a thing, rofl.

 

[gurugeorge]

Warframe is not an MMO.

so?

I would say it does matter a bit, since although Warframe is a multiplayer game, it's not expected that communication is going to be particularly required at all. In fact, even the niceties you mention aren't really needed (although maybe they are for the late game stuff nowadays, it's a while since I played it). In fact even text chat is possible in Warframe, but as with all action setups, the transition to text is marginally too clunky, so nobody bothers much (except in hubs, where there's no combat).

But with MMOS, there's a higher expectation for communication whenever you encounter other players - you're supposed to be together in a virtual world, you're supposed to be making friends and forming longer-term bonds There's a bit of rp lite and "hail fellow, well met," there's more complexity to dungeons and bosses, etc.

I'm not saying that action combat is the main killer of MMOs or anything like that (the death of the MMO proper is a complex story), but I am saying it's a mistake for developers to implement action combat in an MMO if they want to have an MMO that builds community easily. Action combat just makes communication rarer.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Warframe is not an MMO.

so?

I would say it does matter a bit, since although Warframe is a multiplayer game, it's not expected that communication is going to be particularly required at all. In fact, even the niceties you mention aren't really needed (although maybe they are for the late game stuff nowadays, it's a while since I played it). In fact even text chat is possible in Warframe, but as with all action setups, the transition to text is marginally too clunky, so nobody bothers much (except in hubs, where there's no combat).

But with MMOS, there's a higher expectation for communication whenver you encounter other players - you're supposed to be together in a virtual world. There's a bit of rp lite and "hail fellow, well met," there's more complexity to dungeons and bosses, etc.

yea but I don't want to hear other people's voices when I'm playing

 

[gurugeorge]

Warframe is not an MMO.

so?

I would say it does matter a bit, since although Warframe is a multiplayer game, it's not expected that communication is going to be particularly required at all. In fact, even the niceties you mention aren't really needed (although maybe they are for the late game stuff nowadays, it's a while since I played it). In fact even text chat is possible in Warframe, but as with all action setups, the transition to text is marginally too clunky, so nobody bothers much (except in hubs, where there's no combat).

But with MMOS, there's a higher expectation for communication whenver you encounter other players - you're supposed to be together in a virtual world. There's a bit of rp lite and "hail fellow, well met," there's more complexity to dungeons and bosses, etc.

yea but I don't want to hear other people's voices when I'm playing

Nothing kills muh immersion quicker than the sound of a squeaky, barely-intelligible 13 year old cutting in and out with some sort of ruckus going on behind him

 

[Norfleet]

This is why games in general need more gratuitous sex and nudity. Not because I actually need these things in my game, but because it immediately walls out those annoying kids.

 

[Kem0sabe]

ACTION. COMBAT. IS. BAD. FOR. MMOS. It reduces the social/community building aspect of the game. Tab targeting combat is the best kind of combat for MMOs.

Why? Because it's easier to text chat with tab targeting, easier to chat socially, easier to chat for co-ordination.

What's that I hear you say? Use voice? Maybe once I'm in a guild and with friends, until then, fuck off.

Even in tab targeting MMOs like wow, chat is down to the minimum required to get things going, even in classic.

But I agree, action combat is shit in MMOs, everytime I tried to get into an MMO with that kind of combat, ESO and GW2, I just couldn't deal with the constant movement, the limited amount of skills, the need to juggle different weapon sets during a fight.

 

[GhostCow]

I'm not against tab targeting but it's kind of boring and generic at this point. I'd rather never play another mmo where I turn on auto attack and spam 1-0 on the keyboard. That kind of combat has gotten extremely tedious. Especially in games like FFXIV where you're always doing combo strings and literally hitting 2+ buttons per second.

Tab targeting can be ok if it's more laid back like oldschool EQ but even then I'd rather have something better. Preferably something more akin to Mount and Blade. The days of text chat are over and we just have to accept that. Voice chat could be done a lot better though. Voice modulators to make children sound less annoying would help.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I'm tired of playing MMOs where I feel like I'm playing a musical instrument anytime I enter combat.

 

[Cromwell]

I'm tired of playing MMOs where I feel like I'm playing a musical instrument anytime I enter combat.

thats not a problem of tab targetting vs action combat but more a problem of the implementation of tab targetting. Yo have that with FF14 and NuWoW because they decided to be engaging you have to push a button every few milliseconds else it wouldnt be complex and hard enough but you end up with a gazillion skills that effectively do "nothing". You now have a fucking minigame in the game but it still feels the same as having to press only two. so tab targetting would be ok if you had less skills (or more, whatever) but everything has its use depending on the situation your in and not every fight plays out the same.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I'm tired of playing MMOs where I feel like I'm playing a musical instrument anytime I enter combat.

thats not a problem of tab targetting vs action combat but more a problem of the implementation of tab targetting. Yo have that with FF14 and NuWoW because they decided to be engaging you have to push a button every few milliseconds else it wouldnt be complex and hard enough but you end up with a gazillion skills that effectively do "nothing". You now have a fucking minigame in the game but it still feels the same as having to press only two. so tab targetting would be ok if you had less skills (or more, whatever) but everything has its use depending on the situation your in and not every fight plays out the same.

yea I know, basically every popular MMO suffers from it
ESO and GW2 both suffer heavily from it and they're not tab-target

sometimes I just like to attack things with my weapon instead of pressing a long chain of various abilities that effectively does the same thing but is more ~interactive~

uhh I think gw2 isn't tab target anyways, all that shit just blends together at this point

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

I'm tired of playing MMOs where I feel like I'm playing a musical instrument anytime I enter combat.

PLAY EUO! Its old and you don't have to use stupid hotkey boxes. Hell, you can joytokey it. But its retro old so most people hate it.

Anyway, did they ever fix that fucking leg animation in this game yet? Are people forever frozen in single leg ice skating position?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

PLAY EUO!

I don't even know what this is

 

[PulsatingBrain]

don't even know what this is

Think it's this

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Euotopia.com

 

[Norfleet]

ACTION. COMBAT. IS. BAD. FOR. MMOS. It reduces the social/community building aspect of the game. Tab targeting combat is the best kind of combat for MMOs.

This is a meaningless argument because it doesn't mechanically reflect anything about the actual combat system, it is purely a user interface thing. I had this argument with someone elsewhere, who simply could not understand the difference between user interface and actual gameplay, and this argument similarly conflates the two concepts.

There is absolutely nothing that prevents a game from being both "action" AND having "tab target" at the same time. The game is "action" when a player's micro-management affects the outcome of actions in combat: Active dodging, active aiming, all of these things make a game more "actiony". "Don't stand in fire" is fundamentally an action mechanic. "Tab-target" is just a user interface convention for aiming attacks. Nothing more. If attacks miss or can be dodged as a result of actions taken by the target, the combat is still "action" based.

You can slap a "tab target" UI onto Dark Souls combat without fundamentally changing anything mechanically about how the combat actually functions.

What you are ACTUALLY talking about is that you think fast-paced actiony combat harms socialization in MMOs. Not "tab target", which is simply a UI thing.

 

[Black]

Is Guild Wars action, tab target (which it does have) or card game combat?

 

[ADL]

ACTION. COMBAT. IS. BAD. FOR. MMOS. It reduces the social/community building aspect of the game. Tab targeting combat is the best kind of combat for MMOs.

Why? Because it's easier to text chat with tab targeting, easier to chat socially, easier to chat for co-ordination.

This is a strange argument. If everything about Star Wars Galaxies Pre-CU stayed the same except it had a combat system like New World, it would still be a social experience because the systems were built around socializing with other players. MMOs these days suck for a variety of reasons but action combat ain't one of them.

What's that I hear you say? Use voice? Maybe once I'm in a guild and with friends, until then, fuck off.

You can't bitch about people not socializing with each other and then go onto complain about native VoIP implementations. You're part of the problem. VoIP becoming feasible in game is great for MMOs and the only thing I worry about is people not using it in favor of their Discord channels. People isolating themselves in guild chat and Ventrilo hurt MMOs a hell of a lot more than action combat ever did or will.

 

[gurugeorge]

ACTION. COMBAT. IS. BAD. FOR. MMOS. It reduces the social/community building aspect of the game. Tab targeting combat is the best kind of combat for MMOs.

This is a meaningless argument because it doesn't mechanically reflect anything about the actual combat system, it is purely a user interface thing. I had this argument with someone elsewhere, who simply could not understand the difference between user interface and actual gameplay, and this argument similarly conflates the two concepts.

There is absolutely nothing that prevents a game from being both "action" AND having "tab target" at the same time. The game is "action" when a player's micro-management affects the outcome of actions in combat: Active dodging, active aiming, all of these things make a game more "actiony". "Don't stand in fire" is fundamentally an action mechanic. "Tab-target" is just a user interface convention for aiming attacks. Nothing more. If attacks miss or can be dodged as a result of actions taken by the target, the combat is still "action" based.

You can slap a "tab target" UI onto Dark Souls combat without fundamentally changing anything mechanically about how the combat actually functions.

What you are ACTUALLY talking about is that you think fast-paced actiony combat harms socialization in MMOs. Not "tab target", which is simply a UI thing.

Tab targeting isn't a "user convention for aiming attacks" it's literally not aiming attacks, it is selecting an an enemy to attack.

 

[gurugeorge]

ACTION. COMBAT. IS. BAD. FOR. MMOS. It reduces the social/community building aspect of the game. Tab targeting combat is the best kind of combat for MMOs.

Why? Because it's easier to text chat with tab targeting, easier to chat socially, easier to chat for co-ordination.

This is a strange argument. If everything about Star Wars Galaxies Pre-CU stayed the same except it had a combat system like New World, it would still be a social experience because the systems were built around socializing with other players. MMOs these days suck for a variety of reasons but action combat ain't one of them.

What's that I hear you say? Use voice? Maybe once I'm in a guild and with friends, until then, fuck off.

You can't bitch about people not socializing with each other and then go onto complain about native VoIP implementations. You're part of the problem. VoIP becoming feasible in game is great for MMOs and the only thing I worry about is people not using it in favor of their Discord channels. People isolating themselves in guild chat and Ventrilo hurt MMOs a hell of a lot more than action combat ever did or will.

For communication to happen, you need a layer of communication that's not too intimate so that people can tentatively send out feelers. Text chat is that.

 

[Gerrard]

ACTION. COMBAT. IS. BAD. FOR. MMOS. It reduces the social/community building aspect of the game. Tab targeting combat is the best kind of combat for MMOs.

This is a meaningless argument because it doesn't mechanically reflect anything about the actual combat system, it is purely a user interface thing. I had this argument with someone elsewhere, who simply could not understand the difference between user interface and actual gameplay, and this argument similarly conflates the two concepts.

There is absolutely nothing that prevents a game from being both "action" AND having "tab target" at the same time. The game is "action" when a player's micro-management affects the outcome of actions in combat: Active dodging, active aiming, all of these things make a game more "actiony". "Don't stand in fire" is fundamentally an action mechanic. "Tab-target" is just a user interface convention for aiming attacks. Nothing more. If attacks miss or can be dodged as a result of actions taken by the target, the combat is still "action" based.

People use this distinction because of how tab-target games work mechanically. Enemy casts a spell at you, you move behind a corner, still get hit as the spell flies through geometry. You walk up to an enemy and take damage before their attack animation even plays out. Or you walk up, then walk away, and still get hit as their weapon swings at air.

 

[Norfleet]

Tab targeting isn't a "user convention for aiming attacks" it's literally not aiming attacks, it is selecting an an enemy to attack.

Yes, but that's not what makes it action or not. Selecting an enemy to attack is just an interface convention. The question is whether or not actors can DO anything about incoming attacks, or whether the ability to see attacks at all is purely cosmetic. See below.

People use this distinction because of how tab-target games work mechanically. Enemy casts a spell at you, you move behind a corner, still get hit as the spell flies through geometry. You walk up to an enemy and take damage before their attack animation even plays out. Or you walk up, then walk away, and still get hit as their weapon swings at air.

Yes, this is commonly what happens, but is not intrinsically tied to the notion of "tab-target", which is just an interface convention, that of pressing a button to direct attacks at a target. You can have a game that features this same interface convention, but once you let the attack loose, it's a physically simulated action that hits or misses based on whether or not actually hits an enemy.

Conversely, you can have a game which plays through an shooter-type interface, yet exhibits exactly the behavior above because it is not actually "action" combat.

I know this because there's a shitty MMO I've played that behaves in exactly the manner described, but in the console version, has a shooter interface instead...and yet it's exactly the same game mechanically. The shooter interface instead of tab-target has not changed the underlying nature of the game, only the user interface.