Eternity Avowed - Obsidian's first person action-RPG in the Pillars of Eternity setting - coming February 18th

[Delterius]

maybe settings with anime levels of magic are bad

Maybe so, but there is a perfectly valid reason for most fantasy settings with lots of magic to not have things like gunpowder.

yes, its perfectly valid for there to be alchemists and none of them put powder that explodes to use because one in a million people have the powers of a god

 

[rusty_shackleford]

maybe settings with anime levels of magic are bad

Maybe so, but there is a perfectly valid reason for most fantasy settings with lots of magic to not have things like gunpowder.

yes, its perfectly valid for there to be alchemists and none of them put powder that explodes to use because one in a million people have the powers of a god

alchemists often are casters using infusing their mixtures with arcane magic
e.g., 5e unearthed arcana alchemist

 

[Narax]

I think given the rarity of magic users in most fantasy settings, it would only be logical to at least attempt to produce gunpowder, since it's much easier to mass-train soldiers to use firearms than train a magic user.

But I guess it generally comes down to the appeal of firearms in fantasy settings, most fantasy fans just want sword and sorcery, and if they want firearms they usually play a steampunk game or a pseudo renaissance fantasy.

 

[Joseph Stalin]

I think given the rarity of magic users in most fantasy settings, it would only be logical to at least attempt to produce gunpowder, since it's much easier to mass-train soldiers to use firearms than train a magic user.

But I guess it generally comes down to the appeal of firearms in fantasy settings, most fantasy fans just want sword and sorcery, and if they want firearms they usually play a steampunk game or a pseudo renaissance fantasy.

1. Mages are supposed to be rare in most fantasy settings. Especially powerful ones.
2. Non-undead mages need to eat, shit and sleep as well.
3. You can produce gunpowder weaponry en-masse.
4. One retard with a pistol in the middle of the night can take out a mage.

Arcanum presented it the best, I think. Your "run of the mill" mage has absolutely no chance against a disciplined military force relying on technology. On the other hand, mages like Arronax or Nasrudin can wipe out entire civilisations by themselves - which gave Vendigroth, a technological nation, even more of a reason to search for scientific means of combating magic.

 

[Quillon]

1. Mages are supposed to be rare in most fantasy settings. Especially powerful ones.

This is why I hate fantasy games as a concept cos in them every 3rd guy can produce fireballs out of thin air.

 

[SumDrunkGuy]

Nothing in witcher 3 is worth exploring. The world feels tiny and mmorpgish which is shit for open world games. Skellag or w.e was even worse especially with its diving for trash treasure content. Its a blunder of a game I enjoyed witcher 1 and 2 more. Any GTA game is a better sandbox world to explore.

My biggest problem with that game was the loot was rarely ever interesting. There should be a certain sense of excitement when you discover a treasure chest, but they always contained mundane shit. The various types of Witcher armor hidden throughout the world was the only things that were fun to hunt for.

I still enjoyed exploring the world, just not for the treasures so much.

 

[Joseph Stalin]

1. Mages are supposed to be rare in most fantasy settings. Especially powerful ones.

This is why I hate fantasy games as a concept cos in them every 3rd guy can produce fireballs out of thin air.

That's not a problem. The average mage in the Forgotten Realms setting would cast maybe three of those and be spent, whilst a technological force would fill him with lead in the meantime.

As an example, if I recall correctly, outside of the city of Baldur's Gate itself there is literally ONE cleric capable of casting 5th level spells. In the entire Sword Coast region. Candlekeep doesn't count, since no one outside of a wealthy person will even be let in.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

The average mage in the Forgotten Realms setting

There's no such thing. Forgotten Realms is a kitchen sink setting. Cities like Waterdeep are full of wizards, many of them very powerful.

And if we want to be pedantic, anyone of above average intelligence can learn to cast spells in Forgotten Realms using D&D rules. Unless I'm overlooking something, the only real requirement is

To prepare a spell the wizard must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + the spell’s level.

Which means as long as you're above average, you can learn at least some magic.

A score of 10 or 11 is the normal human average,

Meaning about half of humans are capable of learning to cast wizard spells.
Another large chunk are probably capable of doing the same with cleric spells if they tried.

 

[Cross]

At least Eora is a fantasy setting which actually addresses the existence of gunpowder. Almost every other one either ignores it completely (Forgotten Realms); makes up a retarded reason for it not existing (A Song of Ice and Fire/Planetos), or tries to wave it away as "certain factions keep this knowledge secret" (The Witcher).

This is what i like about PoE, at least it tries to make sense, while other settings simply just add random things for the sake of adding them with no thought of how they fit in the world.

PoE tries to make sense? Last time I checked, the entire premise of PoE's story is that the main character believes they are losing their mind because they keep seeing visions of dead people...in a setting where soul-manipulating magic is commonplace. Think about how stupid that is: you can make your character a chanter, who at level 1 already has access to the ability that summons a bunch of ghosts, yet they are shocked by seeing ghosts in the Thaos flashback cutscenes.

If anything, PoE does a worse job of justifying magic and other fantasy elements than other settings. It's so obvious Sawyer would rather have made a low-fantasy historically-inspired game, and it shows, with how disconnected the fantastical elements are from the setting.

 

[Joseph Stalin]

At least Eora is a fantasy setting which actually addresses the existence of gunpowder. Almost every other one either ignores it completely (Forgotten Realms); makes up a retarded reason for it not existing (A Song of Ice and Fire/Planetos), or tries to wave it away as "certain factions keep this knowledge secret" (The Witcher).

This is what i like about PoE, at least it tries to make sense, while other settings simply just add random things for the sake of adding them with no thought of how they fit in the world.

PoE tries to make sense? Last time I checked, the entire premise of PoE's story is that the main character believes they are losing their mind because they keep seeing visions of dead people...in a setting where soul-manipulating magic is commonplace. Think about how stupid that is: you can make your character a chanter, who at level 1 already has access to the ability that summons a bunch of ghosts, yet they are shocked by seeing ghosts in the Thaos flashback cutscenes.

If anything, PoE does a worse job of justifying magic and other fantasy elements than other settings. It's so obvious Sawyer would rather have made a low-fantasy historically-inspired game, and it shows, with how disconnected the fantastical elements are from the setting.

It's not the fact that you can see spirits that is unique; it's the fact how you can interact with them. Seeing a spirit's past is something no "regular" magic user can do. And it's not the fact that the Watcher is seeing spirits that is a danger to their sanity, but the act of re-living your own - and other peoples' - lives.

 

[fantadomat]

I forgot that this existed,thank God for memes. So anything interesting yet ?

 

[Delterius]

At least Eora is a fantasy setting which actually addresses the existence of gunpowder. Almost every other one either ignores it completely (Forgotten Realms); makes up a retarded reason for it not existing (A Song of Ice and Fire/Planetos), or tries to wave it away as "certain factions keep this knowledge secret" (The Witcher).

This is what i like about PoE, at least it tries to make sense, while other settings simply just add random things for the sake of adding them with no thought of how they fit in the world.

PoE tries to make sense? Last time I checked, the entire premise of PoE's story is that the main character believes they are losing their mind because they keep seeing visions of dead people...in a setting where soul-manipulating magic is commonplace. Think about how stupid that is: you can make your character a chanter, who at level 1 already has access to the ability that summons a bunch of ghosts, yet they are shocked by seeing ghosts in the Thaos flashback cutscenes.

If anything, PoE does a worse job of justifying magic and other fantasy elements than other settings. It's so obvious Sawyer would rather have made a low-fantasy historically-inspired game, and it shows, with how disconnected the fantastical elements are from the setting.

You're wrong on both accounts.

The Chanter does not summon the spirits of the dead, nor does he summon dragons and ogres. He creates simulacra of these things, re-enactions of folk lore and history. It's arcane magic like that of Wizards, except that its based on oratory and song as opposed to the written word and spellbooks.

Your character isn't going mad because he can see the spirits of the dead. Rather, because the memories of his past life as an inquisitor are resurfacing. Hence dialogues with Thaos and scenes of people being tortured. Years down the line your conscious mind would have been bound to those events, reliving them over and over again. Like the case with Maerwald.

 

[Cross]

The Chanter does not summon the spirits of the dead, nor does he summon dragons and ogres. He creates simulacra of these things, re-enactions of folk lore and history. It's arcane magic like that of Wizards, except that its based on oratory and song as opposed to the written word and spellbooks.

Not only is this pure pedantry - there is no functional difference between ghosts and simulacra of ghosts - but it's also inconsistent with how the game itself defines chanter's abilities:

https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Chanter

They use these stories and legends to stir the memories of the dreaming lost souls and soul fragments that surround them. The spirits respond by creating magical effects, essentially playing their part in the recreation of the legends.

What exactly do you think a ghost is? It's a soul or spirit that chooses to manifest in a certain way to appear before the living world. This is no different.

Your character isn't going mad because he can see the spirits of the dead. Rather, because the memories of his past life as an inquisitor are resurfacing. Hence dialogues with Thaos and scenes of people being tortured. Years down the line your conscious mind would have been bound to those events, reliving them over and over again. Like the case with Maerwald.

Again, wrong. Your character doesn't learn what the flashbacks mean until close to the end of the game, yet the mere act of seeing ghosts is presented as a sign of madness from the start of the game.

 

[Luckmann]

At least Eora is a fantasy setting which actually addresses the existence of gunpowder. Almost every other one either ignores it completely (Forgotten Realms); makes up a retarded reason for it not existing (A Song of Ice and Fire/Planetos), or tries to wave it away as "certain factions keep this knowledge secret" (The Witcher).

Forgotten Realms has gunpowder, you pleb. At least pre-4e, it's a big thing in Lantan. There are other, bigger, issues, such as gnomes being a thing, but that's beside the point.

 

[Silverfish]

4. One retard with a pistol in the middle of the night can take out a mage.

Take him Down's, as it were.

 

[Delterius]

there is no functional difference between ghosts and simulacra of ghosts

A simulacra is not intelligent. You cannot talk to it. It has no memories. It is a puppet that re-enacts a scene for its master. Neither can a Chanter look into the soul of the living or talk with the recently departed. They can affect this world's weave of magic like any other spellcaster. They can create Dragons, just like Wizards can create 'phantom' copies of themselves. But you wouldn't say there's no functional difference between a simulacra of a Dragon and an actual, thousand year old wyrm.

It's a soul or spirit that chooses to manifest in a certain way to appear before the living world.

Except a Chanter simulacra isn't summoned from the beyond. Nor does it choose to appear before the living world. A Chanter does not pluck a dragon from wherever to fight for them. They create one. The limit of their interaction with the spirit world is that they wield its memory of past epics and folk tales. They are not outright mediums for the spirits of dead or living.

Again, wrong. Your character doesn't learn what the flashbacks mean until close to the end of the game, yet the mere act of seeing ghosts is presented as a sign of madness from the start of the game.

No. You are conflating fully understanding your visions of the past with knowledge of the Watcher's condition. The dwarf animancer hints that you'll go mad and Maerwald illustrates and outright explains that your mind and personality will eventually be overwhelmed by those of your past incarnations. That isn't up for discussion. It was spelled out for you at the end of Act 1.

 

[Efe]

maerwald was at odds with himself..
its not clear if hes an outlier or norm. watcher doesnt seem to care about his past life one bit.

also fuck off with your simulacra head cannon

 

[Yoomazir]

MS Exec: "Avowed? That's a name that wouldn't sell well, how about we rebrand it as... Skyrim 2"

 

[Joseph Stalin]

At least Eora is a fantasy setting which actually addresses the existence of gunpowder. Almost every other one either ignores it completely (Forgotten Realms); makes up a retarded reason for it not existing (A Song of Ice and Fire/Planetos), or tries to wave it away as "certain factions keep this knowledge secret" (The Witcher).

Forgotten Realms has gunpowder, you pleb. At least pre-4e, it's a big thing in Lantan. There are other, bigger, issues, such as gnomes being a thing, but that's beside the point.

I know about Lantan, just as much as I know that it's only function in the setting is being mentioned. Also, Lantan introduces Sin #3 when it comes to gunpowder in fantasy settings - "an organisation purposefully hides its existence". Also Gond.

 

[Luckmann]

... it's only function in the setting is being mentioned.

This is practically the function of 99% of all PnP setting material. The fact that the Harpers and other fuckers are actively curtailing technological development is in itself evidence that the setting doesn't at all "ignore it completely". Just because you don't have widely available firearms across the entire planet doesn't mean it's not there. Even in the real world, our oldest sources on black powder are from the 100's, and it took another 800 years before it started seeing real, practical use in warfare in the 900's, and even then it didn't really take off until it intersected with north-European metallurgy in the 1300's, and even then it took another good 200 years until we're starting to see widespread use.

Look, I like the Arcanum aesthetic, I would absolutely love to see some magic-infused gunslinging, I want to have top-hats and rune-inscribed bolt-action rifles, and I hope to one day mow down a legion of medieval communists with a gatling gun that shoots magic missiles, especially if they look as cool as they did in The Temple of Elemental Evil.

But to say that there cannot be legitimate reasons why things would develop differently in a completely different world - let alone one with magic and alchemy to obviate or curtail development - is just stupid. Especially (pre-4e) Forgotten Realms is a silly example, because there are literally hundreds of wizards in any given metropolis, all of which will ask you to piss off with your toys, and a host of deities that flourish under the status quo.

 

[Spectacle]

IRL the discovery of gunpowder was apparently an accidental discovery from "medical research"; some monk was mixing stuff together hoping that it would have medical properties, i.e. he was basically trying to craft a healing potion. The initial formula wasn't even explosive, just highly flammable, it was many years before anyone made gunpowder that went boom.

In a fantasy world would anyone care about a flammable powder, or would they just discard it as another failed experiment and concentrate on those healing potions? After all there's already potions of fire and other magical means of setting things on fire quickly, if you really need to.

 

[Kazuki]

With the recent news, maybe it's time to retitled the game.

The Elder Scrolls VI : Avowed

 

[Delterius]

its not clear if hes an outlier or norm.

Yes it is. Not only is Adaryc a second example, but the dwarf animancer spirit makes it clear that Watchers are known to just go insane over time. That's, what, 30 minutes into the game?

This is a fact bigger than just Watchers. Though not everyone who goes through an Awakening is completely dysfunctional, its common enough that Defiance Bay has a hospital just for them.

also fuck off with your simulacra head cannon

It isn't headcanon.

This is explained somewhere in The Lore, but chanters are tapping into the collective memories of soul fragments in the In-Between. It goes like this: a sapient being lives a life and has experiences that become memory. When they die, their soul enters the In-Between, is drawn toward the light of a living adra pillar, and enters the Beyond for “a while”.

When the body dies and the soul enters the In-Between, the trauma of the experience usually cracks off little bits or big chunks of memory. Those fragments of memory are usually not fundamental to the identity of the person, but may contain cultural touchstones – songs, stories, epic poems, etc. – that they’ve heard repeated over and over. They permeate the individual’s soul.

A Chanter's summons and invocations are woven from the fragments of souls who pass to and fro the Beyond. Your difficulty and that of some others is because the words 'Soul' and 'Spirit' do not always refer to the transcedental consciousness of an individual. In this setting, souls are broken apart, rebuilt, shaped and recycled by Gods and mortals alike. The beyond is made up of these souls, or soul-stuff, which the Chanter excites with their hymms and songs and the Wizard harvests and shapes with their grimoires.

 

[Mastermind]

i need another elder scrolls game badly, especially with how mediocre skyrim was, any more news on this one? potential release date?

 

[Joseph Stalin]

... it's only function in the setting is being mentioned.

This is practically the function of 99% of all PnP setting material. The fact that the Harpers and other fuckers are actively curtailing technological development is in itself evidence that the setting doesn't at all "ignore it completely". Just because you don't have widely available firearms across the entire planet doesn't mean it's not there. Even in the real world, our oldest sources on black powder are from the 100's, and it took another 800 years before it started seeing real, practical use in warfare in the 900's, and even then it didn't really take off until it intersected with north-European metallurgy in the 1300's, and even then it took another good 200 years until we're starting to see widespread use.

Look, I like the Arcanum aesthetic, I would absolutely love to see some magic-infused gunslinging, I want to have top-hats and rune-inscribed bolt-action rifles, and I hope to one day mow down a legion of medieval communists with a gatling gun that shoots magic missiles, especially if they look as cool as they did in The Temple of Elemental Evil.

But to say that there cannot be legitimate reasons why things would develop differently in a completely different world - let alone one with magic and alchemy to obviate or curtail development - is just stupid. Especially (pre-4e) Forgotten Realms is a silly example, because there are literally hundreds of wizards in any given metropolis, all of which will ask you to piss off with your toys, and a host of deities that flourish under the status quo.

The reason "why" gunpowder weapons are ignored/non-existant aren't really important. The fact that 99% of fantasy settings do that out of convenience - now THIS is important.