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Eternity Avowed - Obsidian's first person action-RPG in the Pillars of Eternity setting

Roguey

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Paradox did have enough sense to promote Tyranny as having heavy involvement from Chris Avellone, though it's unclear whether Paradox itself or Obsidian was the originator of this false claim:

According to Tim, Chris started out as the director of Tyranny. It's possible he just ragequit after getting more of Feargus's notes yet again and they decided to just let him quit instead of telling him that Paradox insisted on his involvement in the contract.

'Doesn't sacrifice its identity" other than changing its genre entirely.

That's not part of the identity. It doesn't break the lore, doesn't veer too far from the established tone of the last release (Deadfire).

Timbo and pals wanted to make first person action Fallout and Arcanum games, they didn't see genre as an inherent part of the identity.

Technologically game is below games from 20 years ago.
People have made videos showing it's technologically below fucking OBLIVION lmfao, it's incredible how bad this game is.
Name games not using Bethbryo released in the past ten years that aren't. Far as I'm concerned this is braindead criticism.
 

almondblight

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Half Life 2 started the trend, where almost every prop object in the environment reacts to physical forces. Shoot a barrel, it falls over. Throw a grenade on a table, it will launch everything on the table through the air.

If you go back and watch the trailers for Half-Life 2, they show a game where the physics actually had a strong impact on the gameplay. They also show relatively intelligent enemies with good AI. We didn't get any of that in the actual game, which ended up being a shooter on rails where enemies politely line up in front of you as you mow them down and maps were a straight line. Likewise with physics - they couldn't figure out a way to actually incorporate them into the gameplay, so the big environmental action stuff is scripted stuff you don't need a physics engine for. Always surprised that people treated that game as anything other than decline.

But it highlights the issues with the mid-2000's focus on physics. A few games actually made use of it, but for most it was a gimmick that didn't have any actual impact on the game. I get that everyone dreams about cutting down trees in the forest and crafting their own rolling log trap and then luring bandits into them (even if including that in most RPGs would break them and do more harm than good). But what we got 98% of the time was just eye candy.
 

BruceVC

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Obsidian deserves RPG fatwa to be placed on it. Games they make now are heretical to ideals of Good RPG Design they once followed. Gameplay, Story Telling, Art. It's all parody lvl now

Pillars of Eternity is parody of old-skool Baldur's Gate. Avowed is parody of Pillars. Only clowns high on cope take parody of a parody seriously
Wall where do you go when you get banned ?

Do you know why you got banned and I assume you wont repeat its because its never nice to see anyone getting banned when Codex has such reasonable policies

But you had several people upset you got banned and you clearly have supporters. Sometimes these development's provide the perfect time for self-refection and then avoid doing the same thing again

It may sound obvious but sometimes people don't really understand the reasons
 
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JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
released in the past ten years
Why in the past ten years? Why not compare it to 15 or 20 year old games that did a better job? Is it because game dev skills have declined so sharply?

But okay, you yourself mentioned Monomyth, which is far more systemically sound.
Even the RPG Titles of the Assassin's Creed series (Origins, Odyssey, Valhalla) have more environmental reactivity.
Every Dark Souls game and Elden Ring has wooden furniture shatter when you roll through it.

If we're still talking about simple things like arrows being actual objects, or clutter items reacting to physical forces, there are plenty of games that do a better job than Avowed.
Of course, you can say that Avowed doesn't want to be like any of these. It doesn't want to be Skyrim, where you can shout fus ro dah at a table and send all the food and cutlery flying! It doesn't want to be an imsim like Monomyth or Dishonored where you can pick up and throw objects! It doesn't want to be Dark Souls where you can dodge roll through wooden barrels and break them!

Okay, but what it is is a first person RPG with a relatively realistic representation of its environments. It also has a full 3D world where you can jump and explore everything in three dimensions, unlike Bioware games which stick your character onto essentially a flat plane and ankle-high barriers can't be crossed. In those Bioware games, like Dragon Age and Mass Effect, the limitations are accepted because the games communicate their limitations through both mechanics and map designs (particularly the minimap, which clearly shows the borders of the walkable area and conveys how confined and limited the levels actually are).

Avowed does not style itself like those Bioware games. It styles itself like a Bethesda game. Or like New Vegas, which Obsidian themselves made. Yes, they were given the engine by Bethesda, but still - it set a precedent for what people expect from an Obsidian-made first person RPG. Picking a worse engine this time around was entirely their fault.

If you style your game in a certain way, you should also deliver on certain expectations of that game style. Free movement, full 3D, first person means people expect to interact with the environment at least to a basic degree. But in Avowed, you can't. They could have styled the game like Mass Effect, with 3rd person perspective and obviously limited maps rather than full 3D movement, if they didn't want to commit to a full world simulation. But they didn't. They picked a perspective and style that sets certain expectations, and didn't meet them.

And to go beyond little details like object physics, which are just window dressing and not the meat of the game - they also failed at the meat. You can't kill friendly NPCs at all, when in New Vegas, they made sure you could kill everyone you meet and still complete the game. Full player choice in how to handle everything. Solid quest design that can be toyed with and broken, yet will still work. Why didn't they do it here, if they did it before? This is on the writing and quest design people. They failed to do the job they should have done.
 

Gargaune

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And before someone like Roguey comes in and says "But Obsidian never cared about a simulationist approach to game worlds, this isn't their focus" SHUT THE FUCK UP this should be standard, particularly in a first person game with relatively realistic-looking visuals. If Obsidian's devs aren't capable of simulating the most basic environmental interactions, maybe they shouldn't make first person RPGs.
I don't believe every game should follow the same design philosophies, true. I would find that a very boring gaming landscape. [...]
This isn't discussing alternate design philosophies like rolls vs. thresholds in skill checks, this is straight up comparing a superior implementation to an inferior one, like gunplay in Fo4 vs. Fo3. Isometrics and even TPP games can get away without, but a FPP Action-whatever should absolutely prioritise environmental interactivity as a matter of genre forms. Bethesda, for all their numerous faults, pretty much set the standard in that department, while a few others, like Warhorse, have tried to follow suit, but a depressing majority of modern productions don't even put in the most basic efforts (yes, obviously Avowed's among them).

While the Open World model certainly carries many design limitations, object tangibility itself isn't one and you yourself acknowledged the plain counterpoints like Bethesda and Warhorse. As for CDPR, you're absolutely right that "lol no", but I think you're underselling how that precise lack of tangibility was actually an important factor (albeit among many) for Cyberpunk being an artistic failure in the medium, commercial performance notwithstanding - what worked for the cinematic, TPP Witcher 3 did not suffice when taking Night City on in FPP.

Sure, having painted-on static clutter isn't by itself a dealbreaker even for a FPP title, you can still have a great game despite it (DXMD for an example), nor is the reason Avowed sucks, but it's also not something to be passed off as merely a "different design philosophy." It's a fault, plain and simple.

Name games not using Bethbryo released in the past ten years that aren't. Far as I'm concerned this is braindead criticism.
And that's the point - you will continue to struggle naming such non-Bethbryo games if you and the rest of the market carry on dismissing this sort of criticism as braindead.
 

Roguey

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But okay, you yourself mentioned Monomyth, which is far more systemically sound.
Monomyth is a series of corridors.

Avowed does not style itself like those Bioware games. It styles itself like a Bethesda game.
No it doesn't. It styles itself after The Outer Worlds. Funnily enough the braindead folks' few brain cells weren't firing up enough to come up with this criticism back then even though it applies just as much to that one.

Bloodlines didn't have these features. Cyberpunk didn't have these features. Kingdom Come Deliverance had a bit of it, but nowhere near to the extent that Bethesda games do, and that one was Vavra's delibate response to Skyrim.

https://f.rpghq.org/BZzaL2Da6qIK.mp4 - "Arrows vanish after you shoot them in ELEX, guess the game sucks :smug:"
 

Roguey

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This isn't discussing alternate design philosophies like rolls vs. thresholds in skill checks, this is straight up comparing a superior implementation to an inferior one, like gunplay in Fo4 vs. Fo3.
You think you're being objective here. :lol:
 

Roguey

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Which claimed to be a New Vegas spiritual successor, or did they drop that marketing claim before release too, like they dropped Avowed's initial claim of being inspired by Skyrim?
Spiritual successor doesn't mean "we're copying this game exactly," comparing the list of spiritual successors to their predecessors is proof of that.
 

KVVRR

Learned
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Half Life 2 started the trend, where almost every prop object in the environment reacts to physical forces. Shoot a barrel, it falls over. Throw a grenade on a table, it will launch everything on the table through the air.

If you go back and watch the trailers for Half-Life 2, they show a game where the physics actually had a strong impact on the gameplay. They also show relatively intelligent enemies with good AI. We didn't get any of that in the actual game, which ended up being a shooter on rails where enemies politely line up in front of you as you mow them down and maps were a straight line. Likewise with physics - they couldn't figure out a way to actually incorporate them into the gameplay, so the big environmental action stuff is scripted stuff you don't need a physics engine for. Always surprised that people treated that game as anything other than decline.

But it highlights the issues with the mid-2000's focus on physics. A few games actually made use of it, but for most it was a gimmick that didn't have any actual impact on the game. I get that everyone dreams about cutting down trees in the forest and crafting their own rolling log trap and then luring bandits into them (even if including that in most RPGs would break them and do more harm than good). But what we got 98% of the time was just eye candy.
The thing is eyecandy has been what AAA games have sustained themselves with for a looooong while now. It's all in favor of those ultra realistic graphix over any new gameplay experiences -- so why not go the extra mile and make physics part of those eyecandy assets, since it's the selling point? They're already doing it in other regards like with raytracing and imo that one is a lot less noticeable while in gameplay that a good, fun set of physics to interact with, even if purely cosmetic ones.
 

KVVRR

Learned
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I don't believe every game should follow the same design philosophies, true. I would find that a very boring gaming landscape.
It's true that not all games need to be done the same way, but can you think of a single game in which object physics would be a negative? I don't think I can think of a single one myself. Even in stuff like BG3 being able to physically grab and place stuff and even enemies anywhere added a LOT of fun to the game with shit like crate hopping or barrelmancy, and that's an isometric game, if you go for a first person one the potential fun only increases from there. I added at least a good couple of hours to cyberpunk just messing around with the bodies of the poor goons I just demolished alone.
 

Inec0rn

Educated
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Sep 10, 2024
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Funny they were throwing shade at BG3 as an RPG not that far back, and in 5 years this is the best Obsidian could do, lol.
 

luj1

You're all shills
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Why are you two respectable gentlemen trying to have a reasonable conversation with a literal insane tranny / Obsidian shill

Why in the last 10 years? Who the fuck knows/cares

This person somehow knows who slept with whom at Obisidian, who did drugs with whom, whose family inherited what, etc. For all we know Rogay literally sucked dicks at Obsidian

One day I will write a creation myth in the style of Enuma Elish about how Rogay and Infinitron were spawned from Josh Sawyer's soy-infused left and right ballsack, respectively
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Monomyth is a series of corridors.
It's not the only game I mentioned though. And what does world layout have to do with simple physics implementation?

Why not address Assassin's Creed Origins? Sure, it doesn't have complex physics, but it does have basic stuff like jars shattering when you ride your horse through them, some items falling over when you hit them (there's one ancient tomb where a lot of little figurines are lined up on the floor, and if you hit them with your feet while walking there, they'll fall over like domino stones!), and even gameplay relevant environmental interactions like pots of oil that will explode into flames when shot at by a fire arrow.

AC Origins is clearly inspired by Witcher 3 when it comes to its structure and quest design, yet it decided to implement some basic environmental interactivity which W3 lacked.

Yeah, sure, you can deflect again by saying "But this was made by Ubisoft, they're a AAAA company who can afford spending money on frivolous details!"
But it goes beyond just object physics, there's also NPC reactions to your actions (people will exclaim when you do risky parkour moves), pushing and shoving and attacking civilians and them running away as a response, etc. All of this adds to the immersion of the game and makes its cities feel like real places which Avowed utterly fails to do.

Yet as a first person exploration-focused RPG, this is an inherent goal of the genre.

You can't defend something like guards showing absolutely no reaction at all while you're having a fight with a bandit in the middle of town. Go and check that video where someone compares Avowed to Oblivion. It's not just about the physics. It's about everything. Nothing reacts to player actions. The cities are dead, the NPCs just walking signposts. The NPCs have less reactivity to your actions than in fucking Morrowind which was criticized for its static NPCs.

If Obsidian didn't want to implement any of that because it's not the kind of game they want to make, then honestly they should just switch to making visual novel. Nobody expects complex interactions from those. They can focus entirely on story there.
 

Roguey

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Every single post of Roguey's about this issue is mere justification for the laziness of Obsidian and many other modern companies.
How about the "laziness" of that company you did free work for, you know, the ones who who tried to make an insanely overambitious project, were unwilling to compromise on it, and in the end shipped nothing and took over 2000 people for a ride giving them a measly combat demo as compensation?
JP9x2hz1FYh0.jpeg


Time, money, and tech, everything comes out compromised in some fashion. Avowed may be a failure on its own merits but at least it shipped.

And like I said, the Bethtards could apply this same criticism to Codex favorites like ELEX if that German Eurojank had ever come across their radar. They're Oblivion fans, of course they're retarded.

It's true that not all games need to be done the same way, but can you think of a single game in which object physics would be a negative? I don't think I can think of a single one myself. Even in stuff like BG3 being able to physically grab and place stuff and even enemies anywhere added a LOT of fun to the game with shit like crate hopping or barrelmancy, and that's an isometric game, if you go for a first person one the potential fun only increases from there. I added at least a good couple of hours to cyberpunk just messing around with the bodies of the poor goons I just demolished alone.
For a storyfag game like Avowed, it's unimportant. If I were in Carrie's position I would have made the same call.

A lot of games could be better with a lot of features, sure, but they can't have them. Might as well wish for the moon.

ZzxUj4qZ8wPg.jpeg
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
How about the "laziness" of that company you did free work for, you know, the ones who who tried to make an insanely overambitious project, were unwilling to compromise on it, and in the end shipped nothing and took over 2000 people for a ride giving them a measly combat demo as compensation?
Free work? I received a salary of 1600€ per month for a year, and the only reason the project died was management drama with one of the two 50% owners of the company (his dad kept interfering in getting a publishing deal because he thought we could "get a better one" as he had no actual clue of what game publishing deals look like) who ended up ghosting the rest of us and froze the project into inaction.

The issue there was not lack of skill. In fact, all the cool engine stuff like being able to pick up all the clutter had already been implemented.
 

luj1

You're all shills
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From what I've seen (not even gonna pirate it) you can literally go into town and repeatedly hit everyone in the head with a hammer and nothing happens. It's unparalleled lazyness and incompetence and has nothing to do with anything else. Even games 30 years ago had more reactivity.
 
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Inec0rn

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If I could do a game justice with all the features it needs, I just wouldn't make the game I guess.
 

Roguey

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Why not address Assassin's Creed Origins? Sure, it doesn't have complex physics, but it does have basic stuff like jars shattering when you ride your horse through them, some items falling over when you hit them (there's one ancient tomb where a lot of little figurines are lined up on the floor, and if you hit them with your feet while walking there, they'll fall over like domino stones!), and even gameplay relevant environmental interactions like pots of oil that will explode into flames when shot at by a fire arrow.

AC Origins is clearly inspired by Witcher 3 when it comes to its structure and quest design, yet it decided to implement some basic environmental interactivity which W3 lacked.

Yeah, sure, you can deflect again by saying "But this was made by Ubisoft, they're a AAAA company who can afford spending money on frivolous details!"
AC Origins was made by a team of over 700 people using entirely different tech and building on top of an engine that's been in use since 2007.

These are some very "never shipped a game before" opinions you have. Been around for nearly 20 years and still having childish attitudes about game development, how tragic. Props to VD, he learned the hard way how it works, shipped three titles. None of them involve object physics because he absolutely does not give a shit about im sim design principles.
 

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