Excidium II
Self-Ejected
-10 Sanity
-
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Baldur's Gate #BaldurGate: Siege of Dragonspear
- Thread starter Infinitron
- Start date
Corporate_Jew_Master
Arcane
It's even weirder seeing leftism in a greek.
Gas the trannies, gas the sjws.
Gas the trannies, gas the sjws.
Telengard
Arcane
I think it's time to elevate this discussion to a level of boredom. Some people say BG characters are shit, so who cares if more shit is added.
I am personally a fan of your Black & White view of the world, because bleakness amuses me. However, we all know that there are degrees of shit, because we have all been to school. So we know that there is the C-, the D, and the F.
Bioware characters are, indeed, truly simple beasts. But they are beasts fitted to the design of the setting and story by the very means of their creation. Bioware makes its characters by first reading Joseph Campbell (he of the mono-myth). Then they skim a few stories from various cultures, particularly books of myths, and draw out various character archtypes, as per Cambellian works. This very system of creation is why the characters of BG seem so familiar as soon as they are introduced, and why they so easily function as heroes in a heroic game. Because we have all seen some or all of them before (depending on how widely read you are), and have seen these archtypes doing heroic things. You may not recognize it, but your brain does.
So, old Bioware would take the archtype and hand the character an additional trait to make them stand out, and call it a day. This is not deep characterization, by any means. But it allows their characters to function as they were intended - as larger than life characters in a kitchen sink heroic fantasy setting. It's what makes them "fit", and what makes them memorable to so many. But at the same time, they are as shallow as a puddle, and every time they open their mouth, soppy soapy stuff comes out. Which is why their characters take the gentleman's C grade.
Now then, anyone seeking to add a character to this design thus A) needs to know Joseph Campbell, and B) needs to do a minimum amount of research into common character archtypes around the world. And that is where Beamdog failed with every one of its characters. Theirs are mechanically d&d characters, but they are wholly lacking in the key Biowarean mythos structure. They do not fit the core design of Bioware's world or its themes. And that is why these characters don't 'fit' - they come from a land far, far away with a totally different purpose and set of themes.
Which is why the writing is crap-tier less than C. It will not be recognized as such, though, in this current period. And it will not for the same reasons that crap tv and crap movies are oft elevated within their given 15 minutes of fame. Because most people are not classically educated, they rate things by how it makes them feel in the moment. So, if a writer pushes all the right buttons, mentions all the current touchstones, then the production will get a good rating simply because they ticked all the boxes and left a good feeling with the audience. And because even journalists - or is that 'journalists' - these days are not widely read, there is no longer anyone offering a counter-argument to this belief. However, that is a rating by trend, so as soon as the trends change, so too will people's feelings about the production. And then it will fade away and be forgotten.
I am personally a fan of your Black & White view of the world, because bleakness amuses me. However, we all know that there are degrees of shit, because we have all been to school. So we know that there is the C-, the D, and the F.
Bioware characters are, indeed, truly simple beasts. But they are beasts fitted to the design of the setting and story by the very means of their creation. Bioware makes its characters by first reading Joseph Campbell (he of the mono-myth). Then they skim a few stories from various cultures, particularly books of myths, and draw out various character archtypes, as per Cambellian works. This very system of creation is why the characters of BG seem so familiar as soon as they are introduced, and why they so easily function as heroes in a heroic game. Because we have all seen some or all of them before (depending on how widely read you are), and have seen these archtypes doing heroic things. You may not recognize it, but your brain does.
So, old Bioware would take the archtype and hand the character an additional trait to make them stand out, and call it a day. This is not deep characterization, by any means. But it allows their characters to function as they were intended - as larger than life characters in a kitchen sink heroic fantasy setting. It's what makes them "fit", and what makes them memorable to so many. But at the same time, they are as shallow as a puddle, and every time they open their mouth, soppy soapy stuff comes out. Which is why their characters take the gentleman's C grade.
Now then, anyone seeking to add a character to this design thus A) needs to know Joseph Campbell, and B) needs to do a minimum amount of research into common character archtypes around the world. And that is where Beamdog failed with every one of its characters. Theirs are mechanically d&d characters, but they are wholly lacking in the key Biowarean mythos structure. They do not fit the core design of Bioware's world or its themes. And that is why these characters don't 'fit' - they come from a land far, far away with a totally different purpose and set of themes.
Which is why the writing is crap-tier less than C. It will not be recognized as such, though, in this current period. And it will not for the same reasons that crap tv and crap movies are oft elevated within their given 15 minutes of fame. Because most people are not classically educated, they rate things by how it makes them feel in the moment. So, if a writer pushes all the right buttons, mentions all the current touchstones, then the production will get a good rating simply because they ticked all the boxes and left a good feeling with the audience. And because even journalists - or is that 'journalists' - these days are not widely read, there is no longer anyone offering a counter-argument to this belief. However, that is a rating by trend, so as soon as the trends change, so too will people's feelings about the production. And then it will fade away and be forgotten.
- Joined
- May 18, 2015
- Messages
- 5,132
It's what we call "greeklish". Very commonly used because our keyboards are with latin characters anyway
Lacrymas
Arcane
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2015
- Messages
- 19,174
Recreating the Monomyth is what Bioware have been doing since ...forever. That's why we have the Bioware cliche chart. The ...let's say interesting, part is that the Monomyth is a structure of literally myths, it can't be appropriated to writing in the context of an author tradition (and the only author tradition that went somewhere is the Western one) in which most writers in this industry aren't schooled and don't know even exist. That's why everything is both random and same-y. They have no concept of exploring and expanding themes, ideas and characters in the artistic sense. It's literally just a string of sewn together disconnected thoughts and ideas that are simply presented, rather than conceptualized into a whole. This isn't directed just at Beamdog, but at most video game "writers". The characters in SoD don't fit because they are amateurishly written, not because they aren't archetypes (although, from what I've seen, they are). They had an opportunity to build-up from previous themes and characters and it wouldn't have been out-of-place, KotOR2 does this and nobody is blaming it for not being "in the spirit of Bioware", but they wasted it because of lack of experience, knowledge and creativity. That's the real fall here, not trannies or GG references, those are incidental.
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Immortal
Arcane
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2014
- Messages
- 537
Finished the base game and Steam has me at 15 hours. Part of me wants to wait until this is patched, another part wants me to go ahead thinking patching won't change the story anyway. I did see the first five minutes and noticed Imoen was there to greet me even though she wasn't in my party during the base game. I promptly dismissed her and then she said she would hang around and follow me just the same. Okay. A little surprised that whether you accept or dismiss her, she'll follow you anyway. I feel like a sacrificial cow going to the slaughterhouse.
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Deleted Member 16721
Guest
Whoring myself? If that's what you call sharing and caring, then ok...
The point of life is sharing and loving. If you want to share your love of anything, I'm all in support of that! So please, feel free to make an LP and do the game justice.
My only tips would be -
1. Be yourself.
2. Have fun.
3. Make sure YOU like what you are doing above everything else.
Good luck! And link us if/when you decide to make one.
Telengard
Arcane
To be more specific,
A single mother says nothing in the grand scheme about the game world or its problems, and tells nothing further about epic adventure, and thus has little way of being integrated into the existing tale that Bioware was telling. The mother hen or the shepherdess of lost lambs, on the other hand, those could do much for the tale of destruction and war such as it is, and are classic and recognizable to most at a glance. Gnomes have no good business on the adventure part of the epic adventure, since they are not naturally tragic nor heroic - leading to much of the reason why they are kept as inventors, librarians, and other such useful NPCs in so many epic RPGs. However, there is a whole vein of scholar-adventurers that could be mined to add a touch of scholarly heroism to the proceedings, if a gnome absolutely must be included. Goblins and kobolds, so long now the comic relief, can have no real station other than comic relief. Which is fine by itself, but in a heroic tale, they are stuck there as the occasional relief, forever not the mains. In any other direction lies farce. That is the reason for which we have halflings - silly people who can become heroes in the right situation. A skald would be fine, if they served their traditional purpose. But that would require forcing them to be in the party and giving them a purpose that didn't revolve around the Chosen One, which would be anathema to the whole design of the story and game. But without those things, a sklad serves no purpose in the overall development of the world, they're just there to be 'cool and different'. Like a guy wearing shades in a fantasy. A comic duo is fitting into the fun nature of BG, but making them be ogres fits neither the classics nor d&d, and it barely fits even modern Bioware. There are many classic duos that would fit the tale, and would actually be classic.
Just a little hint of the classics, and none of the characters would seem out of place. The dialogue and plotting, as well as the interpretation of d&d, that would all still be trash. But lots of people don't notice those things. As long as the characters fit and the sparkly things keep happening on the screen, they remain happy.
A single mother says nothing in the grand scheme about the game world or its problems, and tells nothing further about epic adventure, and thus has little way of being integrated into the existing tale that Bioware was telling. The mother hen or the shepherdess of lost lambs, on the other hand, those could do much for the tale of destruction and war such as it is, and are classic and recognizable to most at a glance. Gnomes have no good business on the adventure part of the epic adventure, since they are not naturally tragic nor heroic - leading to much of the reason why they are kept as inventors, librarians, and other such useful NPCs in so many epic RPGs. However, there is a whole vein of scholar-adventurers that could be mined to add a touch of scholarly heroism to the proceedings, if a gnome absolutely must be included. Goblins and kobolds, so long now the comic relief, can have no real station other than comic relief. Which is fine by itself, but in a heroic tale, they are stuck there as the occasional relief, forever not the mains. In any other direction lies farce. That is the reason for which we have halflings - silly people who can become heroes in the right situation. A skald would be fine, if they served their traditional purpose. But that would require forcing them to be in the party and giving them a purpose that didn't revolve around the Chosen One, which would be anathema to the whole design of the story and game. But without those things, a sklad serves no purpose in the overall development of the world, they're just there to be 'cool and different'. Like a guy wearing shades in a fantasy. A comic duo is fitting into the fun nature of BG, but making them be ogres fits neither the classics nor d&d, and it barely fits even modern Bioware. There are many classic duos that would fit the tale, and would actually be classic.
Just a little hint of the classics, and none of the characters would seem out of place. The dialogue and plotting, as well as the interpretation of d&d, that would all still be trash. But lots of people don't notice those things. As long as the characters fit and the sparkly things keep happening on the screen, they remain happy.
pippin
Guest
fritomos
metalefs
isvolin
metalefs
isvolin
Mustawd
Guest
Stop with the rot13 you losers.
Stormcrowfleet
Aeon & Star Interactive
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2009
- Messages
- 1,076
I haven't played it: are the rumors I heard about trans paladin true ?
Shammy
Learned
Played it for 2 hours and already bracing for mediocre. The amount of sarcastic/snarky responses that CHARNAME can give is concerning, I mean seriously I'm seeing one in every 2 conversations I'm having it's ridiculous.
Also whoever said that Minsc references Boo more than usual, you were so on point that I'm actually sad it's true. And I've only met 2 of the 4 companions and am already disappointed.
I'm holding out until I actually finish it to see how it all comes together and transitions into BG2, but so far it plays like a high budget, average mod, which is exactly what I expected.
Also whoever said that Minsc references Boo more than usual, you were so on point that I'm actually sad it's true. And I've only met 2 of the 4 companions and am already disappointed.
I'm holding out until I actually finish it to see how it all comes together and transitions into BG2, but so far it plays like a high budget, average mod, which is exactly what I expected.
- Joined
- May 29, 2010
- Messages
- 37,385
It can't contradict the opening to BG2, I don't know why you'd expect anything less.
Excidium II
Self-Ejected
I want to see how they'll justify the rest of the party though. Will all the new companions die?
Ellef
Deplorable
They'll be off to teach the gay townspeople about safe sex.
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2014
- Messages
- 537
If you dismissed her, she could have turned up later in the game. That's what I was expecting and wouldn't contradict the opening of BG2.
Maybe any of the canon companions you don't have in your party can be in another adventuring party with some of the original NPCs that don't make it in BG2 which won't contradict BG2. For example if Imoen is in another party with Yeslick, Yeslick is killed and doesn't appear in BG2 but Imoen does. It just so happens that other party has also been captured as well.
So there's two outcomes. Have the canon party in your party and another party with NPCs that don't make it to BG2 and are assumed killed. Or have any canon party members that aren't in your party be in the second party with NPCs that don't make it to BG2 because they are also killed. The end could have the other party mentioning they are off to Amn and you may or may not see them there in your travels. The start of BG2 is the outcome of that.
Obviously, that's not how it plays out. I'll have to play through to see how Beamdog explains it all.
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Excidium II
Self-Ejected
Maybe QA got lost.
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