Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 2 is vastly overrated

[Lujo]

BG1 and BG2 were kind of THE fantasy shlock for a generation of youngsters that were living the begging of an era where noone reads very much. So it was sorta "my first fantasy experience" for a bunch of them and even completely pedestrian or cliche things blew their minds. BG1 is just, as someone has noted, a worse Diablo, tbh. BG2 is... well, better than I thought it was. My "has to be this imaginative/non-stock to even get me interested" line *begins* at where PST is, so even getting myself to get into BG2 (esp after BG1) took smth like 20 years, and I did it at a moment when there was literally nothing else I wanted to play. Honestly, it's a bit better than just "meh, it's alright", esp if you don't come into it expecting a life-changing experience and just want something unintensive to grind out on the couch bit by bit over a period of time. Overhyped for sure, but not even that terrible.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

There may be worse games than Bioware's first two ventures into RPGs, but the Baldur's Gate games had a more pernicious effect, due to their popularity, on CRPGs than anything else in the genre, supplemented by the continuing baleful influences of Bioware's later games.

 

[Ladonna]

There may be worse games than Bioware's first two ventures into RPGs, but the Baldur's Gate games had a more pernicious effect, due to their popularity, on CRPGs than anything else in the genre, supplemented by the continuing baleful influences of Bioware's later games.

I think the way things had been going for the previous number of years had an effect on Bioware rather than the other way around. How many magazines had been carrying on about "real time is more realistic" and canning any turn based CRPG's that were released as "outdated" etc? This was a huge factor behind the loads of real time and quasi real time games released before BG1. Diablo was a real killer, sales wise.

This was even a thing when Dungeon Master was released; I distinctly remember how many people were going ape about the game, and how it was so much better due to it being real time. I love Dungeon Master, but it didn't replace other CRPG systems for me. This didn't stop most publications from talking about how all CRPG's should be like DM, which naturally lead to games like Eye of the Beholder, Bloodwych, and many other knockoffs from being spawned.

The progression of the Ultima series really outlines how the industry thought in terms of this theme too. The old 8 bit machines just had to make do with boring turn based, but the new machines, with all that powah, could deliver the ultimate, real time holy grail.

Same thing happened to a lesser degree with the Might and Magic series.

I would argue that, since the early 90's (when they were really being lambasted), turn based CRPG's mainly (with some rare exceptions, like Dark Sun) existed in niche products until the release of Divinity OS, that seemed to make turn based combat "cool again". Prior to that, all the suits wanted real time because they perceived that is what sells. The few efforts in between (Fallout, TOEE, etc) didn't seem to make a dent, or were relegated into Tactical squad games (Jagged Alliance, etc, and even here, later efforts to create JA3 attempted to head towards real time).

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Parallels between fpp rt blobs and BG are really far-fetched and the concept of crpg as a tb game was still something perfectly normal (see every idiot nutting over FF7 PC port). If anything, BG was influenced by RTS, since that what it was supposed to be and that's what seeping through all these empty forest/mountain areas that so many codexers are fond of for ultimate classic rpg experience.

But BG1-2 being a well-crafted and popular games that at the same time were a proverbial nail into the coffin of its genre is very much true. It's not only about rtwp (let's face it - how many games were directly inspired by BG's core gameplay outside of IE titles), but all the stuff like romances, approvals/disapprovals, quirky npcs with endless dialogue and all that stupid stuff that is seen as a true example of playing a role until this very day.

 

[Ladonna]

Parallels between fpp rt blobs and BG are really far-fetched and the concept of crpg as a tb game was still something perfectly normal (see every idiot nutting over FF7 PC port)

Disagree. I don't know anyone that gave a shit about FF7 coming to PC back then. It was a JRPG, and a console game. And anyone tuned in to the PC/other computers of the day gaming press back in the late 80's/early 90's knows that a lot of people were carrying on about how real time was the future after Dungeon Master hit the streets, and turn based gaming in CRPG's was "old hat". After this, the common theme with reviews and write ups was constant praise for real time "realistic" gameplay, and putting the boot into staid, boring, "non realistic" turn based CRPG's.

This is from the perspective of someone reading Australian/US/British publications anyway. I can't speak for any other countries here.

But BG1-2 being a well-crafted and popular games that at the same time were a proverbial nail into the coffin of its genre is very much true. It's not only about rtwp (let's face it - how many games were directly inspired by BG's core gameplay outside of IE titles), but all the stuff like romances, approvals/disapprovals, quirky npcs with endless dialogue and all that stupid stuff that is seen as a true example of playing a role until this very day.

The first CRPG "romance" efforts I remember came from Ultima games and Treasures of the Savage Frontier, that even included "Even includes ROMANCE!" in the back of the box blurb. So we are talking about early 90's here. Baldur's Gate 1 itself contained no romance, until some spastic effort in TotSC. BG2 of course really bit into this cherry, but my point is, a section of CRPG nerds seemed to want this shit (or the devs wanted it in) from much earlier.

Quirky NPC's were also not a new thing. Chuckles the Jester being just one example among many from the Ultima games. Countless other games also had some odd NPC's in them. Not sure what you mean by approvals/disapprovals.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Disagree. I don't know anyone that gave a shit about FF7 coming to PC back then. It was a JRPG, and a console game. And anyone tuned in to the PC/other computers of the day gaming press back in the late 80's/early 90's knows that a lot of people were carrying on about how real time was the future after Dungeon Master hit the streets, and turn based gaming in CRPG's was "old hat". After this, the common theme with reviews and write ups was constant praise for real time "realistic" gameplay, and putting the boot into staid, boring, "non realistic" turn based CRPG's.

Extremely cool story bro, but FF7 PC port was a huge release that gaming press completely gushed over and it was praised to all heavens. Dropping utter bs like that at the front kinda puts a dent in your narrative of "anyone tuned into PC gaming back then...", but that's beside the point.

The idea of tb rpg was still absolutely normal when BG game out and it still remained so for some time after its release. And that's even without venturing into the concept of many people seeing squad based tactical games as crpgs, which is imo debatable. But I'm not talking about rt vs tb per se. I'm talking about rt fpp blobs, which were an almost completely forgotten thing when BG released and BG obviously has nothing to do with them. It was transitioned from rts and that's where its roots are.

And all the rt vs tb discussions were absolutely happening, but it was mostly focused on constant TBS vs RTS wars. Which is ironic, since RTS suffered similar fate as rtwp crpg and in a similar time frame, too.

The first CRPG "romance" efforts I remember came from Ultima games and Treasures of the Savage Frontier, that even included "Even includes ROMANCE!" in the back of the box blurb. So we are talking about early 90's here. Baldur's Gate 1 itself contained no romance, until some spastic effort in TotSC. BG2 of course really bit into this cherry, but my point is, a section of CRPG nerds seemed to want this shit (or the devs wanted it in) from much earlier.

Quirky NPC's were also not a new thing. Chuckles the Jester being just one example among many from the Ultima games. Countless other games also had some odd NPC's in them. Not sure what you mean by approvals/disapprovals.

That's nice, but has no bearing other than "here's a fun fact!" sharing. It was BG1-2 which introduced and reinforced the idea of carrying a group of funneh/quirky/sexy/emo/edgy/whatever characters who talk all the time, flirt, joke, throw tantrums, approve/dissaprove and so on and so forth as an absolute core part of crpg gameplay which remains to this day. That's its legacy. Not iso rtwp gameplay which barely took off outside of IE titles and collapsed almost immediately until Obsidian's ungainly resurrection.

 

[Shaki]

I would argue that, since the early 90's (when they were really being lambasted), turn based CRPG's mainly (with some rare exceptions, like Dark Sun) existed in niche products until the release of Divinity OS, that seemed to make turn based combat "cool again".

nuXCOM is what made turn based combat cool again, D:OS is just one of many TB games that followed its success.

 

[Ladonna]

Extremely cool story bro, but FF7 PC port was a huge release that gaming press completely gushed over and it was praised to all heavens. Dropping utter bs like that at the front kinda puts a dent in your narrative of "anyone tuned into PC gaming back then...", but that's beside the point.

You will have to prove that one to me. I can remember most people commenting that it was a disappointment compared to the PS1 original, and the gamespot review (stock standard gaming media) I found confirms this view, but I am happy to see something different if you have it. https://www.gamespot.com/reviews/final-fantasy-vii-review/1900-2536027/

The idea of tb rpg was still absolutely normal when BG game out and it still remained so for some time after its release. And that's even without venturing into the concept of many people seeing squad based tactical games as crpgs, which is imo debatable. But I'm not talking about rt vs tb per se. I'm talking about rt fpp blobs, which were an almost completely forgotten thing when BG released and BG obviously has nothing to do with them. It was transitioned from rts and that's where its roots are.

And all the rt vs tb discussions were absolutely happening, but it was mostly focused on constant TBS vs RTS wars. Which is ironic, since RTS suffered similar fate as rtwp crpg and in a similar time frame, too.

TBS still had huge hits like Heroes of Might and Magic, Civ, Alpha Centauri, etc. What did CRPG's have in comparison? Since I don't buy the FF7 thing without seeing something further, we got the Dark Sun games (not very successful), Fallout (went ok, not a gigantic seller though), Fallout 2 (same) Temple of Elemental Evil (went ok, but not BG tier seller), Arcanum (hybrid, and sold ok, but again not BG tier). And then we head into the decline years after the end of Troika, and what was there? Vogel games?

And I was referring to the real time part of Dungeon Master as something that influenced later games, not necessarily the perspective and so on. Or that DM itself influenced BG directly. It was pretty common for people in articles to express how great it was playing such a game in real time compared to turn based games.

That's nice, but has no bearing other than "here's a fun fact!" sharing. It was BG1-2 which introduced and reinforced the idea of carrying a group of funneh/quirky/sexy/emo/edgy/whatever characters who talk all the time, flirt, joke, throw tantrums, approve/dissaprove and so on and so forth as an absolute core part of crpg gameplay which remains to this day. That's its legacy. Not iso rtwp gameplay which barely took off outside of IE titles and collapsed almost immediately until Obsidian's ungainly resurrection.

Collected together, yes. Introduced? No. Virtually all these things were already introduced to some degree in earlier games. And the iso rtwp system is still going strong, with Kangmaker and Wrath of the Righteous being two of the latest iterations.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

I think I first played BG1 at age 11. I didn't really understand the ruleset, but I figured out enough. AC and THAC0 were better if the numbers were lower. Saves were better if the numbers were higher. Thief skills were better if higher. Stealth had greater success if standing in a shadow or at night. What else is there to know? I remember it being a bit brutal at times starting out, but not punitively. If you simply follow the plot you're going to be at the edge of what your characters can handle. It's only when you get to chapter 3 and start wandering around a bit to find the bandit camp that things start to get easier. The game was so fucking magical that difficulty spikes or death by crit didn't phase me in the slightest. This game is the epitome of heroic adventure.

I played BG2 at 12 or 13 and went even more nuts for it. It was all the good stuff, but MORE. I especially loved the higher tier spellcasting, as it was already one of my favorite things in BG1. People often talk about addiction stories for D2 and Everquest, but this series was my heroine. Everything about it was/is just phenomenal.

 

[NecroLord]

Saves were better if the numbers were higher.

Lower.
The lower the number, the easier it is to resist the adverse effect.
Also, yeah, Stealth is quite complex, you get a penalty to your attempts to enter Stealth in broad daylight, but it is easier to Stealth during nighttime (no penalty to your skill).

 

[Ryzer]

Baldur's Gate games are overrated, true but that's because RTwP combat in extremely secluded areas which represent a large part of the game is pure cancer and extremely dogshit. it is a complete mess with a large party.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

You will have to prove that one to me.

That's absolutely not something that would need proving? Anyone who was mildly interested in PC gaming in late nineties would know that mainstream market went head over heels for PC port of FF7. Here, the biggest magazines gave it maximum possible score for the first time in their history. There was precisely one mag that gave it a harsh review, which to this day remains the only review negative to a considerable extent that I know of, because I sure as hell never saw any EN ones.
But anyways:
https://magazinesfromthepast.fandom.com/wiki/Final_Fantasy_VII#Reviews_2

TBS still had huge hits like Heroes of Might and Magic, Civ, Alpha Centauri, etc. What did CRPG's have in comparison? Since I don't buy the FF7 thing without seeing something further, we got the Dark Sun games (not very successful), Fallout (went ok, not a gigantic seller though), Fallout 2 (same) Temple of Elemental Evil (went ok, but not BG tier seller), Arcanum (hybrid, and sold ok, but again not BG tier). And then we head into the decline years after the end of Troika, and what was there? Vogel games?

Yeah, what did TB PC crpgs have???? Shit like Fallouts, JA2, Wiz8, ToEE. Only some of the best PC games in history and/or games that the entire original codex identity is built around. All of them, except Fallouts, released later than BG, when tb crpg was already dead earlier apparently. While, outside of IE, rt iso cranked out slam dunks like Lionheart and Gorasul. And since when did we move the goalposts to units sold? Diablo was a yuge game = tb crpgs ded.

And I was referring to the real time part of Dungeon Master as something that influenced later games, not necessarily the perspective and so on. Or that DM itself influenced BG directly. It was pretty common for people in articles to express how great it was playing such a game in real time compared to turn based games.

And it makes as little sense to mention it in this context as it ever did. These games had absolutely nothing to do with BG or its popularity. BG "evolved", for a lack of better word, from rts. Which was an actual fad at that time.

Collected together, yes. Introduced? No. Virtually all these things were already introduced to some degree in earlier games. And the iso rtwp system is still going strong, with Kangmaker and Wrath of the Righteous being two of the latest iterations.

Clinging to pointless semantics won't change anything, I'm afraid. Yeah, games before had some interesting tidbits, like NPCs screwing you over and running away with your equipment and what not. But it was BG that focused so much on this and influenced the genre to the extent that for many years now an average gaymer will tell you that crpgs have little to do with tactical combat, character building and itemtization, but are instead about "playing a role" through things like gifting g-string to morrigan during camping breaks or deciding who to fugg in the witcher. This is BG's legacy. Iso rtwp crpgs were pretty much dead by the time IWD2 came out.

 

[NecroLord]

Shitting on Baldur's Gate games is the new Codex counterculture?

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Shitting on Baldur's Gate games is the new Codex counterculture?

Shitting on BG was always a thing on the codex. I like BG2 a lot, btw.

 

[Volourn]

Lol Toee 'one of the best ever'.

FUKK OFF. THATS RETARTET.


Go fight some more lame bugbears. Lolźzzzzz

 

[octavius]

Regarding FF7, I remember actually contemplating buying it. First and only time a "mainstream" JRPG (blobbers without anime are OK) tempted me so far.

 

[Crispy]

ToEE > NWN

FACT.

 

[KateMicucci]

BG2's combat sucked but it wouldn't have been any better if it was turn based.

 

[ItsChon]

If someone shits on Baldur's Gate while simultaneously praising the second game, major retard alert. I have yet to see anyone make a coherent argument as to why the second is superior to the first. I also haven't really heard a coherent argument outside of "RTwP BAD!" for why the first Baldur's Gate is a bad game either, but that's a second discussion.

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

If someone shits on Baldur's Gate while simultaneously praising the second game, major retard alert. I have yet to see anyone make a coherent argument as to why the second is superior to the first. I also haven't really heard a coherent argument outside of "RTwP BAD!" for why the first Baldur's Gate is a bad game either, but that's a second discussion.

waifus

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Shitting on Baldur's Gate games is the new Codex counterculture?

Shitting on BG was always a thing on the codex.

The Codex was once considerably more prestigious than it is currently.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

If someone shits on Baldur's Gate while simultaneously praising the second game, major retard alert. I have yet to see anyone make a coherent argument as to why the second is superior to the first. I also haven't really heard a coherent argument outside of "RTwP BAD!" for why the first Baldur's Gate is a bad game either, but that's a second discussion.

As much as I loved BG1, I loved BG2 more. It has vastly better dungeons, and far more of them. While BG has better open-ended exploration, BG2 has better quests. BG2's higher level gives it much more interesting items/loot in both quality and quantity. BG2 has vastly greater monster variety, which also gives it superior encounters/fights. BG2 has access to far more magic that is extremely enjoyable. While BG2 paper dollars are weaker, the art of the areas is generally richer and superior. BG2 gives you a tour de force of what's grand in the Forgotten Realms. BG1 really captures the spirit of the low end, but BG2 captures everything else. We finally get to wade into the grandeur that (then) PnP campaigns often never reached. BG2 had kits. Many of them were busted and strictly better, but they were fun.

While BG1 was seminal and did do a few things better, Bioware took those lessons learned and upped the ante in every way. We didn't just get volume improvements, we got quality improvements. BG2 is BG1+1. Edgelords be damned.

 

[Ulysa]

Divinity Original Sin had much harder and more tactically enjoyable combat than BG2.

Stoped reading here.

How a game with stat stickie gear, cooldowns, one summon limit, retarded armor system(...) has better combat than BG2?

Your tolerance is commendable. I stopped at 'it has no atmosphere'. Of all things this guy could've criticized...

 

[Sjukob]

Shitting on Baldur's Gate games is the new Codex counterculture?

Classic codex was well aware that Bioware was nothing but trash, it's today's decline and retardation that is just unreal.

https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/turn-based-real-time-bastard-hybrids.2044/

Spoiler

Neverwinter Nights failed as both a real-time game as well as a turn based game. It was a huge failure, overall as it failed to meet the needs of either market.

Good riddance to that.

Fuck NWN, its a piece of shit game that would have never sold if it didn't have the DnD logo on it. A game that fails to stand on its own fails to be a good game. Strip away the brand names of DnD or Star Wars, strip away the name Bioware, and just focus on what the game contains.

Do that and you would see the simple truth.
NWN is a failed game.
KotOR is a failed game.

It is because Bioware is chalk full of talentless fuck ups that can't make a game without a big name to sell it.

Man, its like NWN is the only god damn game on earth.
These POS hyped up games are never for playing, only for collecting.
I have every IE game but it took me more time installing than playing them.

I really do believe that BIS and BIO lack the competence to make a good RPG.
They just suck at it. Mainstream dumbed down bullshit with romances.
If thats the best thing on the market than I dont want to play RPG's anymore.

The thing that annoys me the most is when a developer misrepresents a game as turn based just because the characters basically get to take a turn (duh!), and/or adding some garbage pause to it(ie. the Infinity engine crap games). And newer players will actually fight to the death to prove that this new system is "turn based".

Well, sure, and if I had a friend hit "pause" every few seconds on Doom, that would be turn based now too, eh?

Not only is it a bastardization, they are trying to get the old school players to buy into this new system by hijacking the terminology of the old system. And its just a load of crap. If your going to have a real time game, just dump the damn party system and have it be a single character where you attack in real time, not some quasi-wannabe sorta turn-based hack.

I defenestrated my copy of Bunglers Grate, and I refuse to touch any of the other games based on that engine. It was garbage.

https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/what-is-it-about-bioware.1587/

Spoiler

Mediocre games. Massive hype. Dumb devs.

They're just too easy to ridicule. Make a forum search on Bioware and read.

I can see how a person could be curious about all anti-BioWare sentiments here. My answer is simple. Considering that making games is a form of art, BioWare represents a corporate take on that aimed at mass market. As a result their games are intentially dumbed down and simplified, from character development to combat. As one avid BW fan said you can "just sit back and let the AI do the job when your brain isn't necessary." I love this phrase, I really do.

So while the masses may have a different opinion about BG series, NWN, its expansions, and upcoming KotOR, it's also clear why people who reside at a website called RPG Codex would dislike and have a problem with RPG games that have no role-playing whatsover. Does that answer your question?

One thing I really don't like about them is one of the reasons I don't like MicroSoft. They've basically made something inferior, it got popular, and the areas they're working in have been screwed because of this. Baldur's Gate certainly didn't advance the genre at all, and given Fallout came out a year before that, it's popular certainly set the genre backwards rather than the logical advancement of the genre.

I think my biggest irritation is the fact that every single time I read a press release, an interview or anything else from the dev's, it's this shameless black-slapping of how they're the greatest developers the world has ever seen, and getting better with each release. They then go into details and say that they emply the greatest coders/artists/writers, when clearly they're mediocre in most fields. That irritates me. If they actually believe the shit they spew, then there's no chance of them ever learning from their mistakes.

Which comes to my second point. I disagree with most game design philosophies that Bioware games exhibit. To me it seems as though they basically work exculsively in the world of "Wouldn't it be cool if?" and don't consider any kind of rationale behind the design choices they make beyond that. So basically you get a whole bunch of stuff that is poorly thought out, but maybe cool if you aren't too discerning with your games.

The third aspect of Bioware that irritates me is very similar to the first, and that is the fact that through whatever means, they're capable of manipulating a lot of gaming press to shamelessly fellate them, and spit out obvious falsehoods in the few moments when they can actually speak audibly around the thorny, multiheaded and gnarled member they're choking on.

In a nutshell, Bioware's way of running things makes me sick. It typefies so many things that have a negative impact on this once great industry.

My final point deals with the games themselves, and incorporates the above three points. The fact that Bioware release mediocre, poorly thought out games that receive rave reviews, undeserved sales on a wave of empty hype, means that the clueless imitators are going to be imitating other clueless imitators. It's the blind leading the blind, and that's never a good thing.

 

[Harthwain]

If someone shits on Baldur's Gate while simultaneously praising the second game, major retard alert. I have yet to see anyone make a coherent argument as to why the second is superior to the first. I also haven't really heard a coherent argument outside of "RTwP BAD!" for why the first Baldur's Gate is a bad game either, but that's a second discussion.

As much as I loved BG1, I loved BG2 more. It has vastly better dungeons, and far more of them. While BG has better open-ended exploration, BG2 has better quests. BG2's higher level gives it much more interesting items/loot in both quality and quantity. BG2 has vastly greater monster variety, which also gives it superior encounters/fights. BG2 has access to far more magic that is extremely enjoyable. While BG2 paper dollars are weaker, the art of the areas is generally richer and superior. BG2 gives you a tour de force of what's grand in the Forgotten Realms. BG1 really captures the spirit of the low end, but BG2 captures everything else. We finally get to wade into the grandeur that (then) PnP campaigns often never reached. BG2 had kits. Many of them were busted and strictly better, but they were fun.

While BG1 was seminal and did do a few things better, Bioware took those lessons learned and upped the ante in every way. We didn't just get volume improvements, we got quality improvements. BG2 is BG1+1. Edgelords be damned.

Indeed. It's bizzare to see how some people don't understand why BG2 is seen as superior game of the series by the majority of players. It's the same thing with Fallout 2 being liked more than Fallout 1, because it has a lot more to offer. Back then games being longer was seen as added value. Especially when it was a sequel to a game you already enjoyed.

Fuck NWN, its a piece of shit game that would have never sold if it didn't have the DnD logo on it. A game that fails to stand on its own fails to be a good game. Strip away the brand names of DnD or Star Wars, strip away the name Bioware, and just focus on what the game contains.

Do that and you would see the simple truth.
NWN is a failed game.
KotOR is a failed game.

Uh, sure...? That said - KotOR's one big strong point was the introduction of a different era than the classic original trilogy one. This resulted in us having the parallel sets of games: ones that art set during or after the events of the original Star Wars movies and ones that start around the Old Republic era. All in all, I think the end result was net positive, even if I agree that KotOR 1 was not a game that deserved the kind of reception it got (both then and now).