Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 Pre-Release Thread [EARLY ACCESS RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Lacrymas]

Have you ever heard of this game called Chess?

It's totally different and it's not like we don't have like half a century of RPG experience to draw from and come to conclusions. Deterministic systems lead to ...determined outcomes, shocking. Do you have an example of a deterministic TB RPG where the combat is engaging and doesn't fall into rinse-and-repeat tactics?

 

[Ismaul]

Do you have an example of a deterministic TB RPG where the combat is engaging and doesn't fall into rinse-and-repeat tactics

• Do you have an example of a deterministic TB RPG? Even DOS2 has miss and crit chance.

• How is rinse-and-repeat tactics a problem found only in deterministic systems?

• You really think that the fix for a badly designed system that leads to rinse-and-repeat tactics is simply adding randomness?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Do you have an example of a deterministic TB RPG? Even DOS2 has miss and crit chance.

Druidstone, and it sucked.
Probably had a lot more to do with the game itself than it being deterministic.

 

[Lacrymas]

• Do you have an example of a deterministic TB RPG? Even DOS2 has miss and crit chance.

• How is rinse-and-repeat tactics a problem found only in deterministic systems?

• You really think that the fix for a badly designed system that leads to rinse-and-repeat tactics is simply adding randomness?

You jump to a lot of conclusions, huh.

Druidstone.

Never said it is.

Never said that.

 

[user]

Keep in mind that one small change in how D20 works can lead to a "chain reaction" of changes on spells, ranged combat and everything else.

Keep in mind that the best turn based D&D adaptation(ToEE) had an option called concurrent turns to speed up the combat and that you miss a lot on ToEE.

PS : Vincke criticized Spell slots and leveling too. Even Sword Coast Legends maintained the low speed leveling.

Exactly what I am afraid of. Hope Larian doesn't go full Sawyer.

 

[Cryomancer]

If I've learned anything from the "kickstarter-era" of RPGs, it's that copying commercial failures is a good way to create a massive flop.

Not true. Solasta reached almost 2x more than the required on KS and is very ToEE like. We will only know if the game will be success AFTER it launches, but the KS campaign din't flopped. Troika games failed due greedy publishers and the fact that 00s was awful for small devs. But Troika games sales are not bad on STEAM or GOG. Anyway, look to Pathfinder Kingmaker. Despite game journalists "i can't kill swarms with my axe" got success and will receive console ports.

If you hate real time, you can try the turn based mod.

" Titles by this segment saw sales of $27.6 million, with the release of Dakar 18 and Pathfinder Kingmaker cited as key performers - even though the latter launched less than a week before the end of the quarter." https://www.gamesindustry.biz/artic...rdics-net-sales-up-1-403-percent-to-usd139-5m

Exactly what I am afraid of. Hope Larian doesn't go full Sawyer.

I an expecting full sawyer. I mean, Vincke saying things like "this mechanic that exists on video games adaptations since 1988(Pool of Radiance) obvious not work" and "spell slots that also exists since 3 decades ago and even children's portable games like pokemon uses a similar concept are not intuitive" is only one of the reasons... The fact that will be on Stadia is a huge problem too. The game will be designed with a controller in mind,

 

[SkiNNyBane]

Have you ever heard of this game called Chess?

It's totally different and it's not like we don't have like half a century of RPG experience to draw from and come to conclusions. Deterministic systems lead to ...determined outcomes, shocking. Do you have an example of a deterministic TB RPG where the combat is engaging and doesn't fall into rinse-and-repeat tactics?

Most rpg combat doesn't have a bazillion outcomes and does not require you to become equivalent of a master chess player to finish the game. The most obvious example of a rinse and repeat tactic gone wrong is turn based game called tic-tac-toe. Granted, a deterministic rpg would not be THAT simple, but neither it will be a 30m master chess game vs ai. Unless the target audience is incredible niche, the combat mechanics will be simple enough for people to figure out what works pretty fast. RNG allows for varied situations that force you to adopt and make it harder to repeat the same thing over and over. Although even with rng, the game can easily be figured out. However, if every single encounter is planned, you can create variation that way. Imo that is the prefered method. E,g DOS2 had encounter design and rng combat and was pretty fun but so was that gwent single player campaign with a lot of deterministic puzzles. Basically, I would argue that rinse and repeat comes more from lack of good encounter design than it does from whether it is deterministic or not. If the encounter is repeated over and over, the same strategy will work over and over - rng or not.

 

[Ismaul]

The game will be designed with a controller in mind

DOS1-2 had controller support, and wasn't made with a controller in mind. There were 2 control schemes, and the control scheme on PC wasn't dumbed down for it.

But sure that would never work as smoothly with controllers if BG3 was RTwP. There you go, another reason to believe the game will be TB.

 

[Ismaul]

• Do you have an example of a deterministic TB RPG? Even DOS2 has miss and crit chance.

• How is rinse-and-repeat tactics a problem found only in deterministic systems?

• You really think that the fix for a badly designed system that leads to rinse-and-repeat tactics is simply adding randomness?

You jump to a lot of conclusions, huh.

Druidstone.

Never said it is.

Never said that.

Then the problem you perceive isn't about deterministic vs RNG, but about range of combat options and encounter design, like SkiNNyBane said.

 

[Cryomancer]

But sure that would never work as smoothly with controllers if BG3 was RTwP. There you go, another reason to believe the game will be TB.

Yes, also, most successful and recent Larian games are turn based. I mean, i really enjoyed Divine Divinity(unique Larian game which i liked) but if i heard that they only made DD real time due publisher pressure(not sure). Divine Divinity would be great in turns too. Mainly because DD doesn't have modern BS things like cooldowns and mmo-like gearing. Beamdog is porting IE games into consoles( controllers ) and even the most basic spell is a chore to cast. I strong believe that BG3 will be turn based. or a third person action adventure game

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Most rpg combat doesn't have a bazillion outcomes

It probably does though.
At any point in combat, how many actions available do you think you have in most RPGs?

 

[SkiNNyBane]

Most rpg combat doesn't have a bazillion outcomes

It probably does though.
At any point in combat, how many actions available do you think you have in most RPGs?

I am using outcome to mean that it requires a different solution or adaptation. E,g a target going location X or location X + an inch can be utterly irrelevant to the strategy of sniping it. Actually a better example of a meaningless variation is AOEing a group of enemies. 1. You want to group them up and 2. you want to cast powerful aoe on top of them. There are infinite ways in which the targets can group themselves within a general area but the solution is still the same. None of the positional variation within the area is meaningful as a different outcome to the strategy involved except them being clustered up. The meaningful outcome could be that the group spreads out or stuns your mage during casting or something. When you look at outcomes requiring a different solution to be counted, the illusion of endless possibilities kind of goes away in most games.

 

[Thonius]

I told it few times already but game will be shit. Console-Stadia "adaptation", perhaps they will use systems from NUxcom, high probability of 3rd person action.
Everyone who is optimistic about larian and bg3 need reality check up.

 

[Dodo1610]

I told it few times already but game will be shit. Console-Stadia "adaptation", perhaps they will use systems from NUxcom, high probability of 3rd person action.
Everyone who is optimistic about larian and bg3 need reality check up.

I honestly don't even care what type of RPG combat they use, I have been playing Larian games for over 15 years and have enjoyed every single one of them. as long as Swen is the head of the studio the result will be fun.

 

[Lacrymas]

Look what I found in my local (pretty big) comic book/gaming shop -

It's a comic book. I couldn't tell what Fearun year it is at a first glance and I think it was a Ravenloft story either way, but Minsc is there, soooo. Maybe the girl is Neera, but I'm not sure. I suspect it's something new because I haven't seen it before, or they just haven't displayed it earlier where I could easily see it.

They also stock Descent into Avernus now, I saw 2 versions of the cover, but I really couldn't look over it in any detail. The first one is the widely known one, but the second one, which I liked more, is just the Baldur's Gate skull logo with a few red blood drops here and there.

 

[LESS T_T]

I still doubt they do full-on action combat, considering their style of co-op and assumed "full-party control" in single-player mode.

I'm rather curious about that their cinematic department now has over 10 people according to Linkedin. 1 director, 7 cinematic artists, 1 vfx artist, 1 animator, and is looking for a lighting artist dedicated to cinematics. This is smaller than Witcher 3's (which was more than 20), but it seems obvious they're going for a lot of real-time cutscenes that are out of player's control.

That would be disappointing.

 

[Dodo1610]

I still doubt they do full-on action combat, considering their style of co-op and assumed "full-party control" in single-player mode.

I'm rather curious about that their cinematic department now has over 10 people according to Linkedin. 1 director, 7 cinematic artists, 1 vfx artist, 1 animator, and is looking for a lighting artist dedicated to cinematics. This is smaller than Witcher 3's (which was more than 20), but it seems obvious they're going for a lot of real-time cutscenes that are out of player's control.

That would be disappointing.

No idea what people have against cutscenes, I highly doubt the game is going to be a cinematic experience that would go against everything Swen believes in. The older Divinity games had occasional cutscenes for quest triggers especially Divinity 2. I still believe that we are going to get a Dragon Age game with the D&D license that includes 3rd Person exploration with iso camera for combat, animated cutscenes, animated dialogue and may even a few epic pre-rendered cutscenes.

 

[vortex]

That would be disappointing.

Indeed. I hope cinematics will only occur during chapter transitions.

It would be very bad if BG3 will have dialogue cutscenes.

 

[Thonius]

I told it few times already but game will be shit. Console-Stadia "adaptation", perhaps they will use systems from NUxcom, high probability of 3rd person action.
Everyone who is optimistic about larian and bg3 need reality check up.

I honestly don't even care what type of RPG combat they use, I have been playing Larian games for over 15 years and have enjoyed every single one of them. as long as Swen is the head of the studio the result will be fun.

Ew... nothing to see here, just regular fanboy. Imagine playing bad games with "witty" humor for 15 years. Oh what's this? Location: Germany.... hm suddenly it makes sense now.

 

[vortex]

The more I think of, I'd rather gameplay would be RTWP.

Not that I don't like TB. Just think for the moment if you would play game bigger than D:OS 2 in TB mode how much time it would take to finish it compared to RTWP. Maybe 3 or 4 times longer.

 

[Thonius]

How about cutting trash combat then? And perhaps even making good encounters? NAH... pass!

 

[Cryomancer]

Not that I don't like TB. Just think for the moment if you would play game bigger than D:OS 2 in TB mode how much time it would take to finish it compared to RTWP. Maybe 3 or 4 times longer.

If there are 5 party members, and 10 enemies, with real time with pause, the 15 guys takes 6 seconds to act. With turn based, it can take minutes. That said, options to speed up the animations and make all enemies take turns at the same time can speed up the combat.

 

[Sentinel]

Preferably, stop having encounters with so many trash enemies.

 

[vortex]

Preferably, stop having encounters with so many trash enemies.

But you have to grind for your buck and level.

 

[J1M]

The main problem with Druidstone was enemies spawning in unpredictable locations all the time, not the damage range on abilities.

Games that allow enemies to be regularly killed in a single round (xcom) often run into this problem. When players have enough offense to wipe the board each round developers resort to dropping in enemies randomly to mix things up.

If I was making a tactical RPG I would put a lot more emphasis on positioning, attacks of opportunity, and enemies that survive longer than one round.