Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 Pre-Release Thread [EARLY ACCESS RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Nortar]

useless gothic with its dark nights and torches and wolves; useless ja with its vision mechanics
rite

Haha, ok nice catch, you got me there. )
It shows that nothing good comes from blind generalization.
Still, a few good examples where night mechanics actually add something meaningful just emphasize it's decorative pointlessness in the majority of other cases.

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

I'MMA LAY IT OUT HARD, BRUDDA: FUCK CO-OP.

Ask yourself the honest question here my reclusive kin: when the hell did you ever go, "let's play some D:OS2 co-op" to a friend? You want to play an RPG by yourself, not being bothered by your friend always breaking your concentration or having to explain shit to them or helping them out. Oh man oh man oh man, imagine playing co-op with your girlfriend or wife (or boyfriend, I got you Lacrymas ) and them just assaulting you nonstop with stupid fucking questions. "WHAT DOES THIS DO?" "HOW COME MY GUY IS ON FIRE?" "WHEN DO I GET PINK DRESSES?" "ARE THERE HEELS?" "HOW COME MY CHARACTER CAN'T MOVE FROM THIS BIG WEB?" "CAN WE GO EAT NOW?" Holy fuck, I would commit murder. I would become a murderer. No more Generic Giant Spider OR Tarantulos Eduardo Sanchez for the next 20 years (15 with good behavior).

Now okay, okay, I know there's some fuckface that'll read this and go "BUT I ALWAYS PLAYED CO-OP IT WAS SO FUN I LIKE TO ROLEPLAY CONVERSATIONS WITH MY BRO" but I know that's a lie you'd read somewhere like GameFAQs or Reddit. Nobody has friends and our immediate family hates us. We're losers, let us single player RPGs like the losers we are. The true RPG gamer life is one of solitude, a self imposed exile. When somebody comes near us and ask what we're doing, we minimize the screen and bring up Solitaire or a website about dragon dildos to hide our hobby. This is a one person club, hombre.

 

[Mazisky]

Younger folks like to coop because they can shit-talk and joke with their friends throughout the whole game, ignoring the story and laugh together at the umpteenth fireball threw at the cute talking squirrel. They play the game like they are playing Saints Row.

They don't care about atmosphere or day night cycles. Those are in the 12-18 age range, and they are the majority of people who enjoyed Dos 2 and will buy Baldur's Gate 3, thus defending Larian no matter what.

That's my impression, I can be wrong of course.

 

[FranticDistortion]

You're overthinking it. It's because they are lazy, you should buy BG 3 Alpha and write a feedback.

If you're talking to me I will not be buying this game under any circumstances. I urge everyone else to do the same. Replay the original Baldur's Gate if you have an itch. Or never winter nights which is what I'm currently doing.

With the amount of time you spend discussing this game, instead of playing your favorite BG and Neverwinter, I bet you will buy it the first day it goes into Early Access.

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

Younger folks like to coop because they can shit-talk and joke with their friends throughout the whole game, ignoring the story and laugh together at the umpteenth fireball threw at the cute talking squirrel. They play the game like they are playing Saints Row.

They don't care about atmosphere or day night cycles. Those are in the 12-18 age range, and they are the majority of people who enjoyed Dos 2 and will buy Baldur's Gate 3, thus defending Larian no matter what.

That's my impression, I can be wrong of course.

I knew there was a reason I hated kids. I never trusted them, even myself when I was a kid. Never owned a mirror until age 20.

 

[FranticDistortion]

Younger folks like to coop because they can shit-talk and joke with their friends throughout the whole game, ignoring the story and laugh together at the umpteenth fireball threw at the cute talking squirrel. They play the game like they are playing Saints Row.

They don't care about atmosphere or day night cycles. Those are in the 12-18 age range, and they are the majority of people who enjoyed Dos 2 and will buy Baldur's Gate 3, thus defending Larian no matter what.

That's my impression, I can be wrong of course.

True, everyone who liked a game you didn't like must be a kid or a retard, very 'adult' approach.

 

[Lacrymas]

Now okay, okay, I know there's some fuckface that'll read this and go "BUT I ALWAYS PLAYED CO-OP IT WAS SO FUN I LIKE TO ROLEPLAY CONVERSATIONS WITH MY BRO"

I did play D:OS1 co-op for 30ish minutes (we got to the gates of Cyseal). I couldn't stand the voice acting and writing, so I got bored and I haven't played D:OS1 since. This was with a friend with whom I've played numerous games and types of games, so there were no questions about pink dresses.

 

[SausageInYourFace]

That's my impression, I can be wrong of course.

I know a normie couple that usually plays Action/FPSs (dude) and Zelda (girl) and wouldn't touch an even remotely oldschool RPG turn-based anything under normal circumstances. They enjoy playing that game together to the point they played through it a couple of times, trying new builds and new approaches to combat, solving riddles to the best of their abilities (e.g. trying to figure things out on their own for a while and then google the solution if it eludes them) and they even bought DivOS1 after cause they wanted to experience more of it. They are playing story mode for sure but they are having a great time and enjoy combat as well as atmosphere and story. Which is exactly what Sven initially wanted of the game (part of the original pitch being 'I want to play a deep turn based RPG on the couch with my girlfriend').

Of course this is purely anecdotal but considering the sales numbers I think Larian managed to penetrate relatively deeply into normal mainstream with this type of game somehow. Its not just 12yr olds fucking around.

 

[NJClaw]

If you're talking to me I will not be buying this game under any circumstances. I urge everyone else to do the same. Replay the original Baldur's Gate if you have an itch. Or never winter nights which is what I'm currently doing.

Surely you are playing the original Neverwinter Nights that used the Gold Box engine, not a different game which stole the name while adopting substantially different mechanics.

No, I'm playing the game that happened to have the same name but didn't try to advertise itself as a sequel based off of nothing but a want for brand recognition. Neverwinter nights, the game that came out in 2002, didn't call itself never winter nights 2, it's sequel wasn't called never winter nights 3, the developers didn't shit talk the other never winter nights, it was honest about what it was and what it's goal was. Feels good to play a game who's creators had integrity.

So it's the number that bothers you. Was the math teacher always angry at you?

 

[Saerain]

I'MMA LAY IT OUT HARD, BRUDDA: FUCK CO-OP.

Ask yourself the honest question here my reclusive kin: when the hell did you ever go, "let's play some D:OS2 co-op" to a friend? You want to play an RPG by yourself, not being bothered by your friend always breaking your concentration or having to explain shit to them or helping them out. Oh man oh man oh man, imagine playing co-op with your girlfriend or wife (or boyfriend, I got you Lacrymas ) and them just assaulting you nonstop with stupid fucking questions. "WHAT DOES THIS DO?" "HOW COME MY GUY IS ON FIRE?" "WHEN DO I GET PINK DRESSES?" "ARE THERE HEELS?" "HOW COME MY CHARACTER CAN'T MOVE FROM THIS BIG WEB?" "CAN WE GO EAT NOW?" Holy fuck, I would commit murder. I would become a murderer. No more Generic Giant Spider OR Tarantulos Eduardo Sanchez for the next 20 years (15 with good behavior).

Now okay, okay, I know there's some fuckface that'll read this and go "BUT I ALWAYS PLAYED CO-OP IT WAS SO FUN I LIKE TO ROLEPLAY CONVERSATIONS WITH MY BRO" but I know that's a lie you'd read somewhere like GameFAQs or Reddit. Nobody has friends and our immediate family hates us. We're losers, let us single player RPGs like the losers we are. The true RPG gamer life is one of solitude, a self imposed exile. When somebody comes near us and ask what we're doing, we minimize the screen and bring up Solitaire or a website about dragon dildos to hide our hobby. This is a one person club, hombre.

Hey, I did constantly play RPGs with friends, but they pretty much stopped being made that way as shit split into the Skyrims and the Warcrafts, multiplayer became a word of heresy or an afterthought gimmick, and by the time D:OS2 came around 14 years had passed and whole communities evaporated. Only butthurt rates.

 

[Theodora]

I'MMA LAY IT OUT HARD, BRUDDA: FUCK CO-OP.

Yeppppp, lots of people wanted to play DOS2 with me (hell, being gifted it is why I have it), but for the life of me I can't get into it with someone else without becoming anxious as all hell over my own exploring/reading/etc.

Would Beamdog have done a better job at this? Wonder how POE engine could've fared in this case.

We'll never know thanks to the same people I supect making up much of the RTwP-obsession throwing an absolute fit over Siege of Dragonspear for a silly joke at gamergaters and some random character being transgender or something.

RE: day/night cycle

A day/night cycle is like one of the easiest things to pull off, you just need to know how colors work; it's literally just a dark blue-violet glaze on top. And it's the same both for 2d and 3d, although I guess it would be more complicated with modern graphics and many sources of light. But really, I made this in 5 minutes:

1. Random BG internet picture:

[images n shit]

And if you want this to affect the shadow mechanics in some way, just add a multiplier to whatever bonus you got from the daylight shadow, like 1.5, and that's it.

It's really not that easy. Besides changing lightsources, you need to change the sounds, the wildlife, where people are (at least if operating on an actual day cycle), arguably the music would need to be adapted, and even some of the dialogue (or else awkwardly avoid certain phrasings altogether).

I think it's fair to want day and night given its history in cRPGs, but I don't think it's really anywhere near as simple as you're suggesting without compromising on a lot of factors. I just hope that if it's truly entirely absent that they compensate it with other mechanics for the night that feel meaningful in themselves.

You do realize that rtwp IS the system where you actually PLAY, think, micro and position your party in real time instead of being asked for minimal input every 3 minutes and watching the same lengthy animations play over and over on 20 kobolds as you eat and/or wank off?

Orla stop complaining that you've more time to get off to your favourite new Gith waifu.

 

[pomenitul]

They are playing story mode for sure but they are having a great time and enjoy combat as well as atmosphere and story.

 

[Lacrymas]

I guess Yahtzee was right when he said he'd rather be a dumb-dumb and have fun than be bored out of his big genius mind.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

If you're talking to me I will not be buying this game under any circumstances. I urge everyone else to do the same. Replay the original Baldur's Gate if you have an itch. Or never winter nights which is what I'm currently doing.

Surely you are playing the original Neverwinter Nights that used the Gold Box engine, not a different game which stole the name while adopting substantially different mechanics.

No, I'm playing the game that happened to have the same name but didn't try to advertise itself as a sequel based off of nothing but a want for brand recognition. Neverwinter nights, the game that came out in 2002, didn't call itself never winter nights 2, it's sequel wasn't called never winter nights 3, the developers didn't shit talk the other never winter nights, it was honest about what it was and what it's goal was. Feels good to play a game who's creators had integrity.

So you're saying you'd prefer if this game was just called Baldur's Gate?

 

[Elex]

No, I'm playing the game that happened to have the same name but didn't try to advertise itself as a sequel based off of nothing but a want for brand recognition. Neverwinter nights, the game that came out in 2002, didn't call itself never winter nights 2, it's sequel wasn't called never winter nights 3, the developers didn't shit talk the other never winter nights, it was honest about what it was and what it's goal was. Feels good to play a game who's creators had integrity.

Not putting a 2 after a name is worse, it’s mean the game want to replace the old one.
imagine if larian game was called baldur’s gate (2020).

But please go on, you are making all the old game fans look like retarded and show that larian and wotc are right.

 

[Elex]

Does 5e supports mage duels?

Yes and Counterspell can be counterspelled.

Sorcerer can use subtle spells for avoid counterspells.


Caster duels are based on use of reactions, impossible to make in rtwp.

 

[DraQ]

You can say this about almost anything. If you are allowed to throw fireball in tavern but nobody reacts = uncanny valley.
If you are allowed to slaughter whole city but world just goes on = unrealistic.

The thing is there is a difference between systems and content, and handling things by them.
Systems are cheap. They have a lot of front loaded cost, but this cost is fixed, after that they are pretty much free whether you use them once or thousand times. Content you just need to make (unless you have it generated by system).
It is easy to have cosmetic reactions to general stuff, it's nearly as easy to have non-cosmetic ones.

Your examples:

• Throwing fireball in a tavern is probably going to trigger systems you need to have anyway - like response to being attacked, crime system due to murder/attempted murder, etc. That's completely system based - you implement it once, you use it everywhere. And if you don't have those systems, you shouldn't even HAVE cities (apart from maybe menu based ones), or non-hostile NPCs AT ALL - your game just does not support this kind of content.
  
• Damaging and destroying property (like furniture when fireballing tavern) can be tracked in similar way stealing stuff is - furniture can have ownership flags attached and reaction to damaging owned objects can be handled much in the same way as reaction to stealing them. It is mostly system based - objects need to have ownership tag set, but that's just that in regards to content, and you can have ways to designate whole areas or select multiple objects to set ownership tags greatly accelerating the process.
• Eradicating a city is going to be a rare occurrence compared to nightfall - most players won't do that (so you might get away just not handling it or handling it poorly via crime system - if player left any witnesses they likely have shitton of murders on their head and should be designated kill on sight in any other settlement - enjoy your fucking game), and while impossible to handle systemically you are only going to have so many cities in your world (unless you're making Daggerfall) so if you need to handle that, it should be doable.

Contrast nightfall:

• It's very common occurrence and you can't avoid it. Systems won't help you unless you are already generating your game world procedurally, you need to handle it via content and make this content for nearly every single NPC. This content is NPC's schedule - where otherwise you could get away with say blacksmith just milling about his smithy or bereaved widow sitting at home, you now need to produce detailed schedule for everyone and ensure that they have properly assigned sleeping space, eating space, etc. Schedule alone is going to be much more complex than any, even complex activity you are going to have for a city NPC - now make all your NPCs your most complex one, multiply by a factor of several - that's your NPC behaviour workload compared to not having day-night cycle, someone needs to sit on their ass and do it instead of, say, working on good combat encounters. They will probably want to be paid too. Or you can just decide to not have either nightfall or any sort of lively behaviour - NPC not doing anything of note will feel less wrong than NPC doing the wrong thing.

I'm not saying that day-night or complex activity schedules are not worth it (I am the resident simulationist, after all), but they are a big thing and inextricably linked together, so it's hard to blame a studio for deciding not to have that.

I don't know what is uncanny for NPCs, but for me, it is uncanny when I play for hours and THE SUN IS IN THE SAME SPOT and birds happily chirp today, tomorrow, after all monsters die and before, forever, and same music theme plays.

Uh, you might need to shorten your gaming sessions and get outside more often if this is the kind of thing that gets glaringly conspicuous during your playthroughs.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I am the resident simulationist, after all

funny how the people who like this stuff the most are the ones saying it's not worth implementing if it's gonna be half-assed

 

[Harthwain]

If they follow the lore, you don't have 7 days. You have a maximum of 20 hours if most of your stats are at 20 (which they won't be) unless someone spams restoration on you. Then you become a vegetable/dead. Your lifeless body then transforms into an illithid after a week.

It was already hinted that a tadpole the player gets infected with is different from the classic tadpole. The alternative is that we find a healer quickly and he/she will cast Restoration each time party makes camp.

Of course this is purely anecdotal but considering the sales numbers I think Larian managed to penetrate relatively deeply into normal mainstream with this type of game somehow. Its not just 12yr olds fucking around.

Indeed. The whole gaming structure has changed, which is why I always roll my eyes anytime somebody mentions 12/15/18-year-olds.

I saw a clip once, where some guy summed it up perfectly (I moved the timer to the most relevant part):

Spoiler

 

[DraQ]

One of the main reasons why a day-night cycle is a problem to implement is the possibility of splitting the party, like I've said before.

In DOS1-2, and in BG3, it is possible for some characters to be in TB while others are not in combat but in RT exploration mode. Technically, time would be paused in TB, passing at 6 seconds per round. But at the same time many things can happen for other characters in RT, they can even travel the whole map and join in the fight, all in technically 6 seconds combat time. Time is highly abstracted there.

That's actually just Larian shooting themselves in the foot with a thermonuclear weapon.
I can see why they have done it like this and what they tried to achieve, but there is literally nothing good about this solution - inconsistent time, ability to do arbitrary amount of shit or movement in between turns if you are not participating (so escape combat, heal up, gather supplies, travel to advantageous position, reenter combat), etc.
What they should have done is making switch to turn-based mode global. One PC enters combat? It's TB time.
Party is split? Tough shit, maybe try to support your bros next time instead of derping around.

It's part of the great co-op innovation plan, but in the end, it's detrimental to the single player experience.Or when you can pickpocket a NPC with one character while he is in dialogues with your other char. On one hand, it's supposed to evoke the reactivity/improvisation you have in a PnP session, on the other hand, with the loss of day&night cycle and the feeling of progression on a map (and the waypoints system accentuates this) there's a loss of the feeling of exploration.

Yes, exactly.

There's a trade-off there. It seems they can't have good day-night cycles AND good splitting the party mechanics. One or the other. Which is why I said before that implementing day-night cycles is not a tiny thing, it would have a huge impact on the game design, some negative. There's the same exact problem with RTwP, which is why you had to gather your party before venturing forth I guess.

You can, it's just splitting party is going to a bit less fun sometimes when a player in RT mode gets TB forced on them during combat. It's not perfect, but given uncontainable clusterfuck created by the current alternative and the fact that it is NOT an MMO, it seems to be better option.

 

[Shadenuat]

They have a lot of front loaded cost, but this cost is fixed

Ability to kill any NPC is not "fixed cost", because it potentially breaks the plot everywhere, and you'll end up trying to fix that by hand by popping new NPCs or alternative paths and then it all goes out of hand, unless you make key NPCs immortal - but then, you again break game logic and player's immersion.

Eradicating a city is going to be a rare occurrence compared to nightfall - most players won't do that

Or, player might just attack one NPC they didn't like (like in DOS2) and it would set all flags off and whole city and every person and trader and dog attacks them (like in DOS2).

This content is NPC's schedule - where otherwise you could get away with say blacksmith just milling about his smithy or bereaved widow sitting at home

You're the residential simulationist, and prefer your NPCs mashing anvil with hammer JRPG style?

DOS already had houses, taverns, and property. Larian went extremely far with placing every wardrobe and every silver spoon and every chair. And then they mostly abandoned the whole thing, leaving it as another area to loot.

Uh, you might need to shorten your gaming sessions and get outside more often if this is the kind of thing that gets glaringly conspicuous during your playthroughs.

I assume you played Morrowind in 40 minute sessions and then did 20 minute breaks like your doctor told you?

You only need to travel in and out of an area a few times to see that it's static.

 

[DraQ]

yes you camp in the day, then you sleep all day and then its day time. If you are attacked while asleep, its day time.

I expect it to be night time if you get attacked in your sleep.
We have already seen (a) night-time camp map. It would be illogical to have a night time camp map for camping, get attacked during the night while camping in the camp map and then not have the actual combat happen at night and in the camp map where you were attacked while camping and at night.

You see, that's the recurring theme of this thread and it's main problem - people getting so butthurt that it clouds not only their mental faculties but even their basic senses.
You have SEEN the camp map and have SEEN it was night time, and yet you think that any combat that should happen there won't happen there because?

Honestly, this is decline, simplifying from what has already existed in the genre. I expect them to leave resting, camping out because of this or just really gloss over it, Meanwhile Owlcat expands on the concept and even has seasons and it snows and shit.

So did Daggerfall. But level of detail needs to be consistent.

If you have NPC activity you'll probably need NPCs to change their schedule and garb based on the time of the year. That would be fucking awesome, but it's another 4x multiplier to workload. After already adding something like 4x multiplier, so it's about 16x total. That's how you get wapourvare or so-broken-it-won't-even-run games.

 

[Alienman]

So you're saying you'd prefer if this game was just called Baldur's Gate?

I think you are on to something. If it was just called Baldur's Gate you would know instantly it's just for name branding, and a reboot of the series. I don't think people would have as much trouble with it then, considering the changes. Could be wrong though, but I feel putting a 3 behind is has more of an impact and expectation from people.

 

[DraQ]

No, I'm playing the game that happened to have the same name but didn't try to advertise itself as a sequel based off of nothing but a want for brand recognition. Neverwinter nights, the game that came out in 2002, didn't call itself never winter nights 2, it's sequel wasn't called never winter nights 3, the developers didn't shit talk the other never winter nights, it was honest about what it was and what it's goal was. Feels good to play a game who's creators had integrity.

It's settled then. Larian's BG should just be called Baldur's Gate. No one cares abut some old shit anyway.

 

[Lacrymas]

Petition to rename this game to Baldur's Gate and send it to Larian?