Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 Pre-Release Thread [EARLY ACCESS RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Shadenuat]

Then any graphix is useless because it is, in its essence, just cosmetic. Might as well use ASCII one.

that's different, if 2 games are identical except for the graphics, than one is always better than the other.
If 2 games are identical except for a cosmetica day/night cycle, than the best one is the one without a city's square full of people at 2:00 a.m. with open shops and kids running left and right.

And that's also important.
NPC activity is prone to uncanny valleys.
If you have day-night and NPC performing all sorts of activities but not reacting to day-night cycle, the result will be worse than if you didn't have day-night cycle or had NPCs just stand around or wander aimlessly a bit.

You can say this about almost anything. If you are allowed to throw fireball in tavern but nobody reacts = uncanny valley.
If you are allowed to slaughter whole city but world just goes on = unrealistic.

Both of these are present in DOS btw, a game where you can also put wardrobes on top of barells on top of people and steal all 8 paintings and nobody notices.

Also, dare I say Baldur's Gate at night had streets empty except bandits and shadow thieves gettin slaughtered by vampires?

We have now 350 people and 20 years later, and what are we doing here, multiplayer and cinematic dialogues?

I don't know what is uncanny for NPCs, but for me, it is uncanny when I play for hours and THE SUN IS IN THE SAME SPOT and birds happily chirp today, tomorrow, after all monsters die and before, forever, and same music theme plays.

 

[Lacrymas]

We could still have a chapter which takes place during the night and have shadow thieves vs vampires.

 

[gerey]

You can say this about almost anything. If you are allowed to throw fireball in tavern but nobody reacts = uncanny valley.
If you are allowed to slaughter whole city but world just goes on = unrealistic.

Both of these are present in DOS btw, a game where you can also put wardrobes on top of barells on top of people and steal all 8 paintings and nobody notices.

I've always felt that it is better not to include a gameplay mechanic than it is to include it in a half-baked fashion.

If you can't be arsed to put in consequences for firing an AOE spell in the middle of a populated area, or for killing a whole town, then it's much better to prevent the players from doing either.

 

[Shadenuat]

You can say this about almost anything. If you are allowed to throw fireball in tavern but nobody reacts = uncanny valley.
If you are allowed to slaughter whole city but world just goes on = unrealistic.

Both of these are present in DOS btw, a game where you can also put wardrobes on top of barells on top of people and steal all 8 paintings and nobody notices.

I've always felt that it is better not to include a gameplay mechanic than it is to include it in a half-baked fashion.

If you can't be arsed to put in consequences for firing an AOE spell in the middle of a populated area, or for killing a whole town, then it's much better to prevent the players from doing either.

That would just make you prevent-sawyer, like, everything.

 

[gerey]

That would just make you prevent-sawyer, like, everything.

I fail to see how.

The point is not to stop the player from being creative or making choices, but to prevent him from peeking behind the curtains as it were.

I'm all for letting players have as much freedom as possible both in terms of choices and approaches to situations - but only so long as the game is capable of responding appropriately to what they're doing, otherwise you end up as one of those pathetic wretches that LARP in Skyrim.

 

[Shadenuat]

Because players time and imagination at breaking game is infinite, but your ability to make it respond isn't. By your ideal no game implemented freedum right. Arcanum was named here as good example of day and night cycle, and that is the game where you can walk together with shopkeeper during evening into his secret room, wait for him to go to sleep, unlock his chest and farm infinite gold.

 

[pinotto]

Also, that time limit before becoming illithids makes a day/night cycle difficult to implement (and even static days and nights sadly). Also it makes campings a bit senseless, since you can amp 20 times without those 7(?) days passing

Then any graphix is useless because it is, in its essence, just cosmetic. Might as well use ASCII one.

that's different, if 2 games are identical except for the graphics, than one is always better than the other.
If 2 games are identical except for a cosmetica day/night cycle, than the best one is the one without a city's square full of people at 2:00 a.m. with open shops and kids running left and right.

And that's also important.
NPC activity is prone to uncanny valleys.
If you have day-night and NPC performing all sorts of activities but not reacting to day-night cycle, the result will be worse than if you didn't have day-night cycle or had NPCs just stand around or wander aimlessly a bit.

You can say this about almost anything. If you are allowed to throw fireball in tavern but nobody reacts = uncanny valley.
If you are allowed to slaughter whole city but world just goes on = unrealistic.

Both of these are present in DOS btw, a game where you can also put wardrobes on top of barells on top of people and steal all 8 paintings and nobody notices.

Also, dare I say Baldur's Gate at night had streets empty except bandits and shadow thieves gettin slaughtered by vampires?

We have now 350 people and 20 years later, and what are we doing here, multiplayer and cinematic dialogues?

I don't know what is uncanny for NPCs, but for me, it is uncanny when I play for hours and THE SUN IS IN THE SAME SPOT and birds happily chirp today, tomorrow, after all monsters die and before, forever, and same music theme plays.

I agree that a crime system that punishes you even for casting a fireball (and not just for killing or stealing like dos2) would be better and I hope it to be implemented, still it's not an issue as big as people not reacting to the nights, since you have control over it

 

[Shadenuat]

Also, that time limit before becoming illithids

Where did they say there's actual time limit? I highly doubt there will be one, casuals hate this.

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

TBH I do like BG3's stealth of having to use actual cover to move about "unseen." Didn't they do some really goofy MGS cardboard box shit in D:OS2 where you're literally a moving shrub? Yeah, I'll take the shadows over that shit.

Hopefully they have a Ranger's "hide in plain sight" feature, though.

 

[Grotesque]

A game that has no day/night cycle feels static, frozen in time.
When I played Divinity 2, I got some sort of visual fatigue because of that always fuckin bright sun and the same shadows falling at the same angle.
Reaching Bloodmoon Island was like a breath of fresh air because of finally some fraking variation.


A day-night cycle would change the scenery of a 3D environment greatly.
You would have another color palette entirely for the same area, where artists can play with specific dusk, dawn, twilight visual effects.
Adding weather effects would exponential increase the variation of the area.
One of the most immersive moments while playing BG1 I had was exploring wilderness while it rained and lightning flashed from time to time and thunder roared in the distance.

Sometimes I think games today are made only by soulless pricks that attended mobile game design "school".

 

[jackofshadows]

I don't know what is uncanny for NPCs, but for me, it is uncanny when I play for hours and THE SUN IS IN THE SAME SPOT and birds happily chirp today, tomorrow, after all monsters die and before, forever, and same music theme plays.

Maybe at least they will implement some weather effects. They didn't mention anything about it yet, didn't they? Also, if resting in the camp would feel like *night* every time, coupled with right pacing of the game might give us a decent illusion. However, big city w/o night time would feel cheap as fuck no matter how you look at it.

I've always felt that it is better not to include a gameplay mechanic than it is to include it in a half-baked fashion.

Arcanum was mentioned as example of a game with proper day/night cycle but it also a game with plenty of "half-baked" mechanics which didn't make it a bad game, quite the contrary actually. I dunno how you feel about Arcanum but I prefer it as is and not if they'd cut d/n cycle, half of magic/tech stuff and even one of the combat modes - all that in order to polish the rest. Sure that's not how Larian're making BG3 today and it's kinda sad.

 

[Ontopoly]

Also, that time limit before becoming illithids

Where did they say there's actual time limit? I highly doubt there will be one, casuals hate this.

Maybe this is why there is no day/night cycle. That way they can tell you you only have 8 days before you die without having to commit to it. Can't die in 8 days if there are no nights.

 

[Mazisky]

A game that has no day/night cycle feels static, frozen in time.
When I played Divinity 2, I got some sort of visual fatigue because of that always fuckin bright sun and the same shadows falling at the same angle.
Reaching Bloodmoon Island was like a breath of fresh air because of finally some fraking variation.


A day-night cycle would change the scenery of a 3D environment greatly.
You would have another color palette entirely for the same area, where artists can play with specific dusk, dawn, twilight visual effects effects.
Adding weather effects would exponential increase the variation of the area.
One of the most immersive moments while playing BG1 I had was exploring wilderness while it rained and lightning flashed from time to rime and thunder roared in the distance.

Sometimes I think games today are made only by soulless pricks that attended mobile game design "school".

This is the first time since i've been on codex that i totally agree with you.

It can only means that the lack of day\night cycles in Baldur's Gate 3 is a really serious issue to deal with.

 

[Ismaul]

One of the main reasons why a day-night cycle is a problem to implement is the possibility of splitting the party, like I've said before.

In DOS1-2, and in BG3, it is possible for some characters to be in TB while others are not in combat but in RT exploration mode. Technically, time would be paused in TB, passing at 6 seconds per round. But at the same time many things can happen for other characters in RT, they can even travel the whole map and join in the fight, all in technically 6 seconds combat time. Time is highly abstracted there.

This becomes even more jarring and problematic with a day-night cycle. Technically, there should be no cycling in TB, since most fights last around a minute. But obviously time would need to pass in RT. So it would be possible that, while in TB time is fixed, a character in RT would spend like 2 full cycles (2 days). It would be possible that, while the fight in TB is during the day, a character in RT sees time pass and then joins the fight while his worldstate is at night. That would just be a mess, especially if mechanics are tied to the day-night cycle.

For example, say a character in RT where it is nightime joins a TB fight happening during the day. What happens? Does it suddenly become the day for all characters? If not, which visibility and sneak rules do you apply? Night guy attacks others as if it was night and day guy has day modifiers for visibility? Night guy is able to sneak better than day guy?

So given how time flows in Larian's games, because of the possibility of having characters both in TB and RT at the same time, adding a day-night cycle creates non-negligible problems. They'd have to redesign their systems entirely to take into account the cycle and time passing, and likely scrap the possibility of having characters both in TB and RT at the same time. So the question they have to ask themselves, are the benefits of implementing a day-night cycle worth the negatives and what has to be scrapped for it to work? It's a huge trade-off, not just a simple thing to add with little consequence like many here are saying.

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

One of the most immersive moments while playing BG1 I had was exploring wilderness while it rained and lightning flashed from time to rime and thunder roared in the distance.

This. Having life or death battles with bandits in the forest while a storm rages on with your low level D&D party is what good RPGing is all about, baby. Environment is important for setting an atmosphere or striking a mood. That same battle with bandits could have occurred during sunny daylight hours, but it's the darkened sky and thunder that makes those encounters stand out a little more.

Anyone that tries to discredit such things don't understand that immersion and RPGs go together naturally. It's kind of important to feel invested when playing a 60+ hour RPG.

 

[Ismaul]

My favorite game is Gothic. I love day-night cycles. But it still doesn't mean I don't understand why it is a better decision for Larian, given how the game works, to not implement cycles.

Every game has its strengths and weaknesses. And some strengths come at the cost of others.

 

[Mazisky]

One of the main reasons why a day-night cycle is a problem to implement is the possibility of splitting the party, like I've said before.

In DOS1-2, and in BG3, it is possible for some characters to be in TB while others are not in combat but in RT exploration mode. Technically, time would be paused in TB, passing at 6 seconds per round. But at the same time many things can happen for other characters in RT, they can even travel the whole map and join in the fight, all in technically 6 seconds combat time. Time is highly abstracted there.

This becomes even more jarring and problematic with a day-night cycle. Technically, there should be no cycling in TB, since most fights last around a minute. But obviously time would need to pass in RT. So it would be possible that, while in TB time is fixed, a character in RT would spend like 2 full cycles (2 days). It would be possible that, while the fight in TB is during the day, a character in RT sees time pass and then joins the fight while his worldstate is at night. That would just be a mess, especially if mechanics are tied to the day-night cycle.

For example, say a character in RT where it is nightime joins a TB fight happening during the day. What happens? Does it suddenly become the day for all characters? If not, which visibility and sneak rules do you apply? Night guy attacks others as if it was night and day guy has day modifiers for visibility? Night guy is able to sneak better than day guy?

So given how time flows in Larian's games, because of the possibility of having characters both in TB and RT at the same time, adding a day-night cycle creates non-negligible problems. They'd have to redesign their systems entirely to take into account the cycle and time passing, and likely scrap the possibility of having characters both in TB and RT at the same time. So the question they have to ask themselves, are the benefits of implementing a day-night cycle worth the negatives and what has to be scrapped for it to work? It's a huge trade-off, not just a simple thing to add with little consequence like many here are saying.

Maybe i get it wrong, but wouldn't be a solution to just stop the time all togheter while there is any combat?

 

[DraQ]

One of the main reasons why a day-night cycle is a problem to implement is the possibility of splitting the party, like I've said before.

In DOS1-2, and in BG3, it is possible for some characters to be in TB while others are not in combat but in RT exploration mode. Technically, time would be paused in TB, passing at 6 seconds per round. But at the same time many things can happen for other characters in RT, they can even travel the whole map and join in the fight, all in technically 6 seconds combat time. Time is highly abstracted there.

That's actually just Larian shooting themselves in the foot with a thermonuclear weapon.
I can see why they have done it like this and what they tried to achieve, but there is literally nothing good about this solution - inconsistent time, ability to do arbitrary amount of shit or movement in between turns if you are not participating (so escape combat, heal up, gather supplies, travel to advantageous position, reenter combat), etc.
What they should have done is making switch to turn-based mode global. One PC enters combat? It's TB time.
Party is split? Tough shit, maybe try to support your bros next time instead of derping around.

Technically, there should be no cycling in TB, since most fights last around a minute.

With global TB, time should just pass at normal rate whether continuously or in turns.

It's really just problems all the way down, but in this case they are entirely self inflicted.

 

[pinotto]

Also, that time limit before becoming illithids

Where did they say there's actual time limit? I highly doubt there will be one, casuals hate this.

Maybe this is why there is no day/night cycle. That way they can tell you you only have 8 days before you die without having to commit to it. Can't die in 8 days if there are no nights.

that's actually what I was implying, they will probably amke the days pass with certain events, for example at the end of the prologue they will say "2 days have passed", then in the mid of ch 2 "it's been 4 days" or something like this

7 days would be a very short period if they do a real d/n cycle, expecially since you need to rest for spells etc

 

[Lacrymas]

If they follow the lore, you don't have 7 days. You have a maximum of 20 hours if most of your stats are at 20 (which they won't be) unless someone spams restoration on you. Then you become a vegetable/dead. Your lifeless body then transforms into an illithid after a week.

 

[CappenVarra]

this thread is getting stoopider by the page, and considering how far we have to go it's going to be epically stoopid in 3.... 2.... 1.... dude, like, whoa

2 steps to hangover:
1) turn-based Baldur's Gate, D&D to the hilt - fucking finally, my body is ready
2) it's larian, the eternal sunshine of a belgian mind - fuck this gay retarded earth

 

[Mazisky]

Also, that time limit before becoming illithids

Where did they say there's actual time limit? I highly doubt there will be one, casuals hate this.

Maybe this is why there is no day/night cycle. That way they can tell you you only have 8 days before you die without having to commit to it. Can't die in 8 days if there are no nights.

that's actually what I was implying, they will probably amke the days pass with certain events, for example at the end of the prologue they will say "2 days have passed", then in the mid of ch 2 "it's been 4 days" or something like this

7 days would be a very short period if they do a real d/n cycle, expecially since you need to rest for spells etc

But they said that the night-camp mechanic will be a big feature that will gain depth as the game progresses. And is reasonable to think you will use camping many times during the game. How they deal with the infection doomclock?

 

[Pegultagol]

One of the night-camp mechanics could be to ward off the infection...so much so it may not even be a hindrance later on. Larian will cater to broad appeal as much as possible meaning it will be impossible to reach any dead-end regarding this infection stuff. Can you imagine the outrage when a casual player #2341 reaches a point where the infection progresses to a point of no return with 'game over' screen staring in his face? Mind flayer terror will have nothing on the torrent of internet gnashing of teeth and hurt anguish that will sure result. So the infection progression wouldn't probably be as dynamic as people think, more narrative-driven, dramatized, even romanticized. It's my impression anyway.

 

[Ontopoly]

They said something about there being a mechanic where you have to balance the tad poles influence so they will just explain away the whole 8 day thing. Kind of like motb but no where near as good because it's Larian. This game will have more in common with nvn2 than BG.

 

[Thonius]

You're overthinking it. It's because they are lazy, you should buy BG 3 Alpha and write a feedback.