Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 Pre-Release Thread [EARLY ACCESS RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Storyfag]

I'm dead serious! Recent Bethesda games had day/night cycles and NPC scheduling (Skyrim & Fallout 4) but it's really an antiquated way to design an RPG world.

And The Witcher, and Kingmaker, and KCD, and... the list could go on. Implying the all encompassing march of decline ("it's CURRENT YEAR") also claimed the day and night cycle is going a bit too far, even if it is for the purposes of bashing Larian for doing exactly that.

 

[NJClaw]

and Kingmaker

Kingmaker has day and night, but there's no "cycle". The night is just a day with a darker color palette. There are a couple of quests where you have to do something at a specific hour of the day, but it's not like the quest takes a different route if you act before or after that hour: it's simply not there. If there's no difference between how quests progress if you act during the day or during the night, what's the point of having that cycle to begin with?

A proper day/night cycle would be cool, but what's the point of implementing it if there's no content that relies on it and it's just a shallow paintover?

 

[gurugeorge]

and Kingmaker

Kingmaker has day and night, but there's no "cycle". The night is just a day with a darker color palette. There are a couple of quests where you have to do something at a specific hour of the day, but it's not like the quest takes a different route if you act before or after that hour: it's simply not there. If there's no difference between how quests progress if you act during the day or during the night, what's the point of having that cycle to begin with?

A proper day/night cycle would be cool, but what's the point of implementing it if there's no content that relies on it and it's just a shallow paintover?

A proper day/night cycle would mean going to bed at a reasonable hour, getting up at the crack of dawn, etc.

IOW, if you're going to have a day/night cycle for the sake of "realism" then you have to have a mechanic whereby your little heroes get tired, their performance degrades if they can't sleep, and they can only push themselves awake through a night now and then (e.g. maybe in a dungeon they might have to press on through the night, or on some tricky part of the journey through the country).

 

[Delterius]

and Kingmaker

Kingmaker has day and night, but there's no "cycle". The night is just a day with a darker color palette. There are a couple of quests where you have to do something at a specific hour of the day, but it's not like the quest takes a different route if you act before or after that hour: it's simply not there. If there's no difference between how quests progress if you act during the day or during the night, what's the point of having that cycle to begin with?

A proper day/night cycle would be cool, but what's the point of implementing it if there's no content that relies on it and it's just a shallow paintover?

A proper day/night cycle would mean going to bed at a reasonable hour, getting up at the crack of dawn, etc.

IOW, if you're going to have a day/night cycle for the sake of "realism" then you have to have a mechanic whereby your little heroes get tired, their performance degrades if they can't sleep, and they can only push themselves awake through a night now and then (e.g. maybe in a dungeon they might have to press on through the night, or on some tricky part of the journey through the country).

do you mean like fatigue in kingmaker

 

[Anonona]

The day and night cycle may have not be implemented either because the divinity engine isn't designed with it in mind, or because the game actually relays on shadows for stealth, so shadow placement plays an important role when designing the "levels", similar how stealth games usually do not have day/night cycles because they focus on crafting precise levels. Still it feels like a wasted chance considering that changing shadows and traits like dark vision, plus the tadpole "time limit" could give a new layer of decision making on when to go out adventuring, either day or night, similar to how Metal Gear Solid: The Phantom Pain does it for stealth games.

 

[NJClaw]

and Kingmaker

Kingmaker has day and night, but there's no "cycle". The night is just a day with a darker color palette. There are a couple of quests where you have to do something at a specific hour of the day, but it's not like the quest takes a different route if you act before or after that hour: it's simply not there. If there's no difference between how quests progress if you act during the day or during the night, what's the point of having that cycle to begin with?

A proper day/night cycle would be cool, but what's the point of implementing it if there's no content that relies on it and it's just a shallow paintover?

A proper day/night cycle would mean going to bed at a reasonable hour, getting up at the crack of dawn, etc.

IOW, if you're going to have a day/night cycle for the sake of "realism" then you have to have a mechanic whereby your little heroes get tired, their performance degrades if they can't sleep, and they can only push themselves awake through a night now and then (e.g. maybe in a dungeon they might have to press on through the night, or on some tricky part of the journey through the country).

With "proper day/night cycle" I just meant that there needs to be content linked to the existence of that cycle. Different routes and outcomes for quests, different encounters so that you might want to adventure during night with certain party compositions, stuff like that.

 

[Drakortha]

With "proper day/night cycle" I just meant that there needs to be content linked to the existence of that cycle. Different routes and outcomes for quests, different encounters so that you might want to adventure during night with certain party compositions, stuff like that.

Exactly, it takes more work and we don't want that because it makes me feel bad when developers work hard for my money. This is why I'm okay with asset flips and micro-transactions because it means I can buy things and it takes minimal effort for the developer to create.

 

[Peachcurl]

Love the sarcasm. (it's sarcasm, right?)

 

[Gargaune]

The lack of day/night cycle is a curious and disappointing call on Larian's part. On the spot, I can only think of the KoTOR, Dragon Age and Mass Effect "CRPG" series to have skimped out on it, and all of those games had a more, I dunno, cinematically-focused, "in the moment" sort of approach to their scenes, as opposed to the likes of Baldur's Gate, which tried to sell you on there being a large, functional world that you were adventuring in.

If we look at it more closely, there's two thought schools when it comes to daytime cycles in videogames:

- There's the simulationist one, which you can see in games like Bethesda's or Kingdom Come: Deliverance. Aside from the visual changes, this approach gives all or most of their NPCs daily routines, which can have significant impact on gameplay. So this can be quite taxing development-wise, since it's not just a matter of sitting down and scripting schedules, but also examining potential consequences on game balance from shifting actor placements or visibility.

- And then there's the cosmetic approach, which you know from the IE games, NWN, PFKM etc. and is mostly about just changing the way environments look. Sure, even in the original BG you might have townsfolk give way to courtesans at night or the smith in Beregost close up shop, but most relevant NPCs stayed glued to their posts. Interestingly, The Witcher 3 also falls into this category, at least I don't recall much waiting around until decent hours to get stuff done.

Now, I can understand if Larian might not want to take on the challenge of the simulationist approach, though the interplay between light and stealth would be cool, but at least the cosmetics of a dynamic time of day would've really been appropriate. Yes, I get that merchants staying at their posts in the dead of night isn't "realistic", but it beats the hell out of being locked into perpetual tea time. And, as graphics go, implementing a day/night cycle in a 3D environment should've been more straight-forward compared to the smoke and mirrors needed on 2D titles like Baldur's Gate or Deadfire.

 

[Horvatii]

 

[rusty_shackleford]

D:OS 1 & 2 technically do have day/night, it's part of the narrative. Some locations are night-time, others are day-time.
I don't like it, but saying they don't have day/night isn't true. Don't really see this as any worse(much better imo) than most day/night cycles in RPGs that do nothing but change the color. At least you're rarely fighting undead in broad daylight.

 

[ArisatoSeldom]

What's the point of having day/night cycle in the themepark game? Other than changing color palette and some flavor (which is important, I agree), it doesn't do anything meaningful (other than flavor, yes).

If it would work like in first witcher (new encounters, etc.) then yes, I'm all for it. Honestly, I want properly implemented day/night in games with proper environment changes.
But larian won't do it, as far as I see. They are going for handholded themepark in which they want to decide, whether it's day or night. Aka DnD Baldurs gate starter box.

 

[gurugeorge]

and Kingmaker

Kingmaker has day and night, but there's no "cycle". The night is just a day with a darker color palette. There are a couple of quests where you have to do something at a specific hour of the day, but it's not like the quest takes a different route if you act before or after that hour: it's simply not there. If there's no difference between how quests progress if you act during the day or during the night, what's the point of having that cycle to begin with?

A proper day/night cycle would be cool, but what's the point of implementing it if there's no content that relies on it and it's just a shallow paintover?

A proper day/night cycle would mean going to bed at a reasonable hour, getting up at the crack of dawn, etc.

IOW, if you're going to have a day/night cycle for the sake of "realism" then you have to have a mechanic whereby your little heroes get tired, their performance degrades if they can't sleep, and they can only push themselves awake through a night now and then (e.g. maybe in a dungeon they might have to press on through the night, or on some tricky part of the journey through the country).

do you mean like fatigue in kingmaker

Yep, something like that.

Actually PFK has "spoiled" me on a few things. Their implementation of map travel (with fatigue) is the best yet in a modern CRPG, and the campfire sequences are a step in the right direction as well. Their storybook sequences are great too, and offer quite a lot of room for those skills that are less used in combat gameplay to get a chance to be useful.

Going forward, I'm going to be less happy with CRPGs that don't have that level of immersive detail.

And they could be refined further too, with more consequences to the day/night cycle, more of a sense of the time changing (the little semicircle at the top that changes from day to night is a great visual aid, but it could all be enhanced a bit). Random encounters could be refined, etc., etc.

 

[Lacrymas]

These extensive discussions about day/night cycles are really bizarre to me. I fundamentally don't care if they have them and have never cared, to the point I'll never notice the lack thereof or even think about it, and I can't understand the fiery passion and deep disappointment some people exhibit.

 

[Takamori]

I'd argue that night and day cycle provides immersion? Also see if they have a nice behavior programmed in game to see if the NPCs will have their own routine instead of everything running around the player.
I can see the merits of days and night, though I can't see the merits of cheap porn and bad romance in the game. If I were to crank a wank there is several medias and even games in order to do so.
But at the same time it won't be the end of the world if the game doesn't have night and day cycle.

 

[Rinslin Merwind]

Who needs day/night cycles in computer games, when we can have recycling of topics in thread every page or so?
Amright guys?

......

I stopped my attempts to seriously participate in discussion of this day/night shit after third wave of mentally unstable people who think game would be shit "cuz no day/cycles" and autistic basement dwellers who think in simple paradigm "If I can live without noticing movement of astral bodies - then everyone should". Such immersive thing as this cycle is like mold on cheese - it can improve taste of product or make it dangerous to consume, depends on type of mold (perhaps my metaphor a bit shitty, but I think people who somehow hasn't lost their marbles and still reading this thread will understand my point). Sure, meaningful day/night change is nice to have, but is it worthy addition if in the end it does not fucking matter (or has shitty implementation)? Or if game will be bad overall? (considering addition of romances chances on this increased, that's for sure)
I have my doubts.
Anyway I want to game being releasing already, not even because I have so colossal desire to play it on release, but because this thread will shit/praise existing game or at least stop recycling topics (oh silly me).

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Day/night cycle without it causing a major change in the gameworld is immersion breaking. I'd expect new monsters to come out at night, people lock up shop and go home, undead to be weaker during the day, roosters to crow at dawn, etc.,
If it's just visual then it's even worse than simply not having it.

 

[J1M]

I like when games have day/night to enhance the mood of a zone, but don't care if most zones exist only at one time of day.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

but don't care if most zones exist only at one time of day.

I consider this to be above 'no day/night' and 'visual only' but below 'full day/night cycle'.
It's how D:OS1/2 handle it.

 

[bec de corbin]

and Kingmaker

Kingmaker has day and night, but there's no "cycle". The night is just a day with a darker color palette. There are a couple of quests where you have to do something at a specific hour of the day, but it's not like the quest takes a different route if you act before or after that hour: it's simply not there. If there's no difference between how quests progress if you act during the day or during the night, what's the point of having that cycle to begin with?

A proper day/night cycle would be cool, but what's the point of implementing it if there's no content that relies on it and it's just a shallow paintover?

A proper day/night cycle would mean going to bed at a reasonable hour, getting up at the crack of dawn, etc.

IOW, if you're going to have a day/night cycle for the sake of "realism" then you have to have a mechanic whereby your little heroes get tired, their performance degrades if they can't sleep, and they can only push themselves awake through a night now and then (e.g. maybe in a dungeon they might have to press on through the night, or on some tricky part of the journey through the country).

do you mean like fatigue in kingmaker

Yep, something like that.

Actually PFK has "spoiled" me on a few things. Their implementation of map travel (with fatigue) is the best yet in a modern CRPG, and the campfire sequences are a step in the right direction as well. Their storybook sequences are great too, and offer quite a lot of room for those skills that are less used in combat gameplay to get a chance to be useful.

Going forward, I'm going to be less happy with CRPGs that don't have that level of immersive detail.

And they could be refined further too, with more consequences to the day/night cycle, more of a sense of the time changing (the little semicircle at the top that changes from day to night is a great visual aid, but it could all be enhanced a bit). Random encounters could be refined, etc., etc.

The implementation of map travel is stolen from Realms of Arkania, everyone knows that

 

[purupuru]

Day/night cycle without it causing a major change in the gameworld is immersion breaking. I'd expect new monsters to come out at night, people lock up shop and go home, undead to be weaker during the day, roosters to crow at dawn, etc.,
If it's just visual then it's even worse than simply not having it.

There is some truth in what you said, though I would say having to wait several hours on street just for a shop to open is far more immersion breaking. Yes you can try to go to an inn every night but that gets old really fast, especially with the horrible load time in many modern games.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Day/night cycle without it causing a major change in the gameworld is immersion breaking. I'd expect new monsters to come out at night, people lock up shop and go home, undead to be weaker during the day, roosters to crow at dawn, etc.,
If it's just visual then it's even worse than simply not having it.

There is some truth in what you said, though I would say having to wait several hours on street just for a shop to open is far more immersion breaking. Yes you can try to go to an inn every night but that gets old really fast, especially with the horrible load time in many modern games.

Which is why e.g., beth games have the option to just wait in once place for a set amount of time

 

[The_Mask]

Am I remembering wrong, or didn't they say the game starts in hell? If yes, that can excuse a lot. Especially the Gray Wastes.

Maybe they'll take the game in places where a day/night cycle would not normally happen: the planes or the Underdark.

 

[purupuru]

Day/night cycle without it causing a major change in the gameworld is immersion breaking. I'd expect new monsters to come out at night, people lock up shop and go home, undead to be weaker during the day, roosters to crow at dawn, etc.,
If it's just visual then it's even worse than simply not having it.

There is some truth in what you said, though I would say having to wait several hours on street just for a shop to open is far more immersion breaking. Yes you can try to go to an inn every night but that gets old really fast, especially with the horrible load time in many modern games.

Which is why e.g., beth games have the option to just wait in once place for a set amount of time

Ah, but that is exactly what I said, the "waiting" function is immersion breaking. "Resting" is fine, I can picture my pc chilling in a camp or sleeping in a bed, but "waiting"? Realistically just waiting for half an hour with nothing to do would drive a man insane, let alone several straight hours on a street at night for no greater reason than selling your loot at the blacksmith, as far as i know most fantasy settings don't have smartphones.
You know what, I'm gonna mod my TES games to say "stroll around" rather than "wait" at the prompt, it would make the pc looking like a lonely mad man but it would make more sense.

 

[Drakortha]

It looks like Sex in Baldur's Gate 3 has caught mainstream attention. This will hopefully bring a lot of much deserved attention to this game and help with pre-order sales. You know what they say about Sex, "Sex Doesn't Sell". So Larian was very brave to go against the grain by presenting this as a main feature for BG3. But I'm glad to see the risk might pay off. Go Larian!