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Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 RELEASE THREAD

perfectslumbers

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Insta-kill buttons are rarely fun, especially so when wielded by the enemy but even when wielded by the player. Killing low-level mobs with words of death or similar stuff is ok-ish in some games but when it works on bosses it becomes really unsatisfying (except when it only works when he's weakened, then its good again)
Yeah I'd like for there to be less kill ledge shit but thunderwave is neat when you use it in less degenerate ways like pushing enemies back into hunger of hadar once they leave or pushing them into a corner and then fireballing them, which is what I'd like to see enemies do.
 

whydoibother

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Codex Year of the Donut
-Give some enemies ... thunderwave
Getting pushed off a cliff by imps in Raphael's basement is the most unfun antifun I had in the game so far.

Insta-kill buttons are rarely fun, especially so when wielded by the enemy but even when wielded by the player. Killing low-level mobs with words of death or similar stuff is ok-ish in some games but when it works on bosses it becomes really unsatisfying (except when it only works when he's weakened, then its good again)
The imps in questions cast Eldrich Blast every turn, with pushback. With 2 targets per blast. And the fight is on 3 platforms above an endless pit. And there's several of them spread around. And the encounter mechanic requires that a party member wielding a certain weapon goes from the far left platform to the far right platform. And there's 2 beholders flying paralyzing people.
Whoever made and tested this 100% noticed that imps push you off a cliff, and you have to reload, with good consistency. Especially if they push the guy wielding the special weapon. Or if that guy gets paralyzed, and you have to endure 2 more rounds of imps blasting your people backwards.

Its just the kind of fight thats decided on rolling dice if you get hit by a tiny imp firing its cantrip spell.
 

S.H.O.D.A.N.

Learned
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BG3 lets me do that, and it does so without judging me for making sociopathic or "evil" choices

No, it just frames you as an imbecile most of the time. It's all cartoonish, moustache twirling villainy, childish cruelty for the sake of it, or outright sutpidity, except without the novelty of a low intelligence Fallout playthrough.

The game doesn't provide compelling narrative choices of alignment, it just lets you spazz out from time to time, the squirrel kick being the most egregious example of this supposed "breadth of choice".
 

VerSacrum

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Oh, so you have no criteria for what is woke, yet you deny that the game is woke.
I have criteria for what I consider to be "woke", I don't have a pre-defined line for when things get "too woke". Your reading comprehension is truly astounding. Someone asked for opinions on this issue, I gave mine, you gave yours. Let's leave it at that, since I have no interest anymore in continuing to argue with cognitive vacancy experts such as yourself, when you refuse to actually point out specific examples, despite me regularly bringing up very anti-woke examples to showcase that there is no one-sided presentation of any given agenda, but simply a presentation of multiple paths and choices the player can take -- something that makes any RPG a better game, as long as it's done without judging the player for going down one path or another.

To put it simply: Woke agendas in games don't bother me, if they are not the only agenda being presented. If a game has a woke and anti-woke pathway, and I get to choose which one I take, the existence of the woke agenda isn't a problem. When the woke agenda is the ONLY agenda being presented, or when the player is heavily incentivized for following it/disincentivized to pick any other path, is when things become problematic. In my mind, BG3 doesn't do that.
Baldurs Gate 3's/Nu-Forgotten Realms worldbuilding is woke, objectively and undeniably. You can choose to not be bothered by it, but it does not offer a "non-woke" pathway - an "anti-woke" pathway at best if you choose to go full murderhobo.
 

Non-Edgy Gamer

Grand Dragon
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Strap Yourselves In
BG3 lets me do that, and it does so without judging me for making sociopathic or "evil" choices

No, it just frames you as an imbecile most of the time. It's all cartoonish, moustache twirling villainy, childish cruelty for the sake of it, or outright sutpidity, except without the novelty of a low intelligence Fallout playthrough.

The game doesn't provide compelling narrative choices of alignment, it just lets you spazz out from time to time, the squirrel kick being the most egregious example of this supposed "breadth of choice".
Yup. The player barely has a reason to betray the tieflings, for example. And you are most certainly judged for it.

Three companions will call you evil and/or attack you. Gale will get angry, blame you and threaten to leave over it. Shadowheart will no longer offer her pseudo-romantic scene and instead will be guilty and get drunk by herself. Even Minthara will judge you if you didn't do it for a good enough reason in her eyes when she asks you about it in Act 2.

The only ones who don't care are Lae'zel and Astarion. There's probably a way to influence some of the others out of leaving, but by default, yes, they will judge up a storm.

Anyone saying the game doesn't judge you isn't paying attention.
 

processdaemon

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-Give some enemies ... thunderwave
Getting pushed off a cliff by imps in Raphael's basement is the most unfun antifun I had in the game so far.

Insta-kill buttons are rarely fun, especially so when wielded by the enemy but even when wielded by the player. Killing low-level mobs with words of death or similar stuff is ok-ish in some games but when it works on bosses it becomes really unsatisfying (except when it only works when he's weakened, then its good again)
I agree for the most part, but stuff like shoving Dror Ragzlin into the conveniently placed chasm next to his throne while he's preaching about the absolute is pretty fun. Those sort of set ups should be used sparingly of course.
 

Saark

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A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
The game doesn't provide compelling narrative choices of alignment, it just lets you spazz out from time to time, the squirrel kick being the most egregious example of this supposed "breadth of choice".
The Dark Urge is much worse in many of these moments, i.e. tearing the wings off of the bird Nettie nurtures back to health, or dismembering Gale the moment you meet him. It's just pure sociopathic behavior, there's no proper "evil" path that has semi-understandable justifications. The lore explanation for it also makes no sense, as
it only lets you decide a select few situations of where to act like a sociopathic Bhaalspawn, completely ignoring the fact that you would still be a murderhobo no matter what choices you make in those scenes, and you would satisfy Bhaal with the hundreds of corpses you leave behind on your journey even if you suppress every urge the game presents.

I also don't recall the game judging me for taking down the Grove, for example, or "framing me as an imbecile". Hell, it's not even referenced in any of the subsequent hubs, i.e. no one at the Last Light's Inn gives a fuck that I tore down the entire grove and killed the thieflings. So I'm not quite sure what particular moment you're talking about where the game itself frames you in that way through dialogue or exposition. I do agree though that the writing of the game in general ranges from sometimes decent, to generally fairly mediocre in quality, and egregiously bad in some circumstances. It's no MotB or KOTOR2 when it comes to evil playthroughs, that's for sure.

Why? Is there a goblin foot kissing scene? Why is there a BDSM priest in the goblin camp? Why do all the companions want to have sex with your character? Why does the asexual tentacle monster want to have sex with your character? Why is there genital selection when the game doesn't even show them during any cutscenes I saw? Why is the marketing so gay sex-oriented? Why are game devs proudly announcing they're a "cuck squad"?
I guess this is where our opinions differ a lot and explains why we think so differently on the matter. There's no goblin foot kissing scene that is in any way sexual. It's just a "kiss my ring to submit" scene, but, like, kiss my boots instead. Very trope~y, not at all sexual or "woke". There's no BDSM priest either. Loviatar's teaching aren't sexual in nature, they're about physical pain leading to spiritualty. It seems to me like you're projecting a fair amount of sexual undertones into these scenes, even though there aren't any. You're not even expected to get naked for the Loviatar scene.

As for the companions, it is weird that all of them are bi, and it's certainly ruining immersion a bit. But since it's such a small part of the game, and a simple "no" typically gets rid of any of such unwanted advances, it's easy to ignore. I never had the Emperor proposing to me, so maybe I simply missed that dialogue option, or maybe a flag was set so the option never appeared for me. As for the rest... They have nothing to do with the game, only the games creators, and I couldn't give less of a shit about the pronouns or sexual preferences of someone doing creative work. It's the work itself that's either enjoyable or isn't. A small single-digit percentage of the game having some woke agenda undertones isn't a big deal, and it's offset by having just as many choices that go in the other direction.
 

perfectslumbers

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It's hard to make a satisfying evil path in a setting where evil is a metaphysical property that exists purely for its own sake. I think D&D games would benefit a lot from making good and evil and law and chaos more distant and ephemeral concepts than simply opposite paths you have to choose between, and having all mortals (such as yourself), making decisions somewhere in the middle, with a few exceptions like paladins.
 

dbx

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There's no BDSM priest either. Loviatar's teaching aren't sexual in nature, they're about physical pain leading to spiritualty.

The guy literally looks like your average berliner BSDM degenerate, one of those weirdos drinking piss at Berghain.
 

Orud

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Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming!
Honestly, I've never seen a well done evil path in any cRPG, at best a well-written cartonish evil path
There are very, very, very few people that want an actual evil path. Most people want a dark, edgy and sexy path where they don't butcher children, animals, 'good' people or severely fuck up the world not for the better of anyone else.
 

Saark

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A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
It's hard to make a satisfying evil path in a setting where evil is a metaphysical property that exists purely for its own sake. I think D&D games would benefit a lot from making good and evil and law and chaos more distant and ephemeral concepts than simply opposite paths you have to choose between, and having all mortals (such as yourself), making decisions somewhere in the middle, with a few exceptions like paladins.
I think concepts such as good and evil don't really exist within fantasy realms with active and living gods anyway. Morality is what you make of it, and while there might be societal pressure and norms that could define concepts such as good or evil within the forgotten realms at any given point... You could also just simply change those at a whim. Concepts of evil in Menzoberranzan are quite different to the concepts of evil in Waterdeep for example, so any action needs to be contextualized before you can even call something evil. I think this is one of the main reasons why the alignment chart stopped making sense when more and more content was released that didn't just play in Faerun.

Any Good/Evil path will, by default, be viewed under the lens of our current sociopolitical and cultural climate that we live in, even though the setting of D&D is quite different to the one we currently live in. As a result, evil/good paths don't really exist to begin with. It's just about what justification you have for your actions, if any. The problem with BG3, is that the actions within the game that we in our society would consider an evil path, have little to no justification within the BG3 setting. For a second I expected the plot to be about turning people into mindflayers in order to destroy their souls, depriving the gods of their power and ultimately reshaping the realms without the influence of the gods. That's a justification some might be able to get behind, and could then contend with whether the end justifies the means. But exploring any such topic in depth requires competent writers, and Larian has never had the gravitas and talent to write stories other than the comically villainous ones that we have gotten with their last 4 or 5 games.

Honestly, I've never seen a well done evil path in any cRPG, at best a well-written cartonish evil path
Mask of the Betrayer did a decent job at justifying "evil" actions, so did KOTOR 2. At the end of the day it's all in the eye of the beholder. Many people would not consider the happenings of a game like Nier to be evil, even though the game can end with a selfish choice leading to the extinction of the human race -- but you, as the character, have a reason and justification to make that choice, and that's what a good story about good/evil should be about. It's just like reading a history book and saying "oh wow, thank god the good guys always won". It's more complicated than that, and getting rid of the alignment chart was a good step in that direction -- the problem is that you need capable writers to do something with this freedom, and Larian just ain't that kind of company.
 

volklore

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Why? Is there a goblin foot kissing scene? Why is there a BDSM priest in the goblin camp? Why do all the companions want to have sex with your character? Why does the asexual tentacle monster want to have sex with your character? Why is there genital selection when the game doesn't even show them during any cutscenes I saw? Why is the marketing so gay sex-oriented? Why are game devs proudly announcing they're a "cuck squad"?
I guess this is where our opinions differ a lot and explains why we think so differently on the matter. There's no goblin foot kissing scene that is in any way sexual. It's just a "kiss my ring to submit" scene, but, like, kiss my boots instead. Very trope~y, not at all sexual or "woke". There's no BDSM priest either. Loviatar's teaching aren't sexual in nature, they're about physical pain leading to spiritualty. It seems to me like you're projecting a fair amount of sexual undertones into these scenes, even though there aren't any. You're not even expected to get naked for the Loviatar scene.

As for the companions, it is weird that all of them are bi, and it's certainly ruining immersion a bit. But since it's such a small part of the game, and a simple "no" typically gets rid of any of such unwanted advances, it's easy to ignore. I never had the Emperor proposing to me, so maybe I simply missed that dialogue option, or maybe a flag was set so the option never appeared for me. As for the rest... They have nothing to do with the game, only the games creators, and I couldn't give less of a shit about the pronouns or sexual preferences of someone doing creative work. It's the work itself that's either enjoyable or isn't. A small single-digit percentage of the game having some woke agenda undertones isn't a big deal, and it's offset by having just as many choices that go in the other direction.
Funnily enough about the woke themes, the lae'zel romance is really not following this at all. It starts with her being all bossy, i dominate you type stuff, progresses with her pretending the mc is more into her than she is, then locks you in the romance proper when she litterally asks you to dominate her. In game it being a duel where if you win, she submits. I wonder if the woke squadron is already complaining the Lae'zel romance destroys her strong wamen archetype.
 

Grauken

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Honestly, I've never seen a well done evil path in any cRPG, at best a well-written cartonish evil path
There are very, very, very few people that want an actual evil path. Most people want a dark, edgy and sexy path where they don't butcher children, animals, 'good' people or severely fuck up the world not for the better of anyone else.

Butchering children or animals usually is the edgy path, that's not evil just moronic. There has to be a reason. Say a deadly disease breaks out in a children's hospital and you have to either burn it down with everyone in it or let the disease run wild and claim even more victims. A true evil path shouldn't feel like an "evil" path, it should just be a path with many seemingly rational choices that leads you down an increasingly dark road until you lose all sense of good and evil
 

Rhobar121

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But this game, like BG2's rescuing of Imoen, does the thing of implying great urgency where none exists. And, ironically, this sabotages the timed quests because it gets the player used to the idea that they can just ignore that sort of messaging and spam rest.
It's one of my biggest gripes with the game, since the mcguffin is used early on and there's a great deal of time-pressure expressed, but then it doesn't actually matter at all. In fact, the game kind of requires you to rest frequently and often, as it's the only time when the story gets moved forward. On my first playthrough, I didn't get tadpole powers until the beginning of act 2, because I was incredibly conservative with spells and resources, to the point where I got to the shadowlands without having had the dream-visitor sequence yet.

This shit then repeats in Act 3, when you suddenly leisurely stroll around town while a massive army marches on the city (how did you even get there before them, they moved out quite a bit earlier than you did). It's just pretty inconsistent writing, and anybody saying the game has good writing should shoot themselves.
In fact, it is said in the game that this army was never really intended to attack the city, only to give the opportunity to take control over bg.
 

Saark

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A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
Funnily enough about the woke themes, the lae'zel romance is really not following this at all. It starts with her being all bossy, i dominate you type stuff, progresses with her pretending the mc is more into her than she is, then locks you in the romance proper when she litterally asks you to dominate her. In game it being a duel where if you win, she submits. I wonder if the woke squadron is already complaining the Lae'zel romance destroys her strong wamen archetype.
I'd reckon the Minthara scene after annihilating the Grove would receive even more attention than that. She straightup tells you she's gonna sleep with you, whether you want her to or not. Rejecting her in the camp, no matter how I tried, ended up with her fighting/killing me. So yeah, she essentially rapes you, but I have yet to hear complaints over that. It just goes to show that at the end of the day, no one really cares if its a one-off, especially if it makes sense within the setting. Having this many bisexual companions doesn't really make sense, but it's just one small blip in the entire thing, and I can see it for the cheap marketing ploy that it is, without it letting affect my enjoyment of the game. The game is overtly sexual, especially in Act 1, but that seems to be more for shock factor than them trying to please a certain type of consumer or push a specific agenda. It dies down hard anyway by the time you finish act 1.
 

Orud

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Butchering children or animals usually is the edgy path, that's not evil just moronic. There has to be a reason. Say a deadly disease breaks out in a children's hospital and you have to either burn it down with everyone in it or let the disease run wild and claim even more victims. A true evil path shouldn't feel like an "evil" path, it should just be a path with many seemingly rational choices that leads you down an increasingly dark road until you lose all sense of good and evil
You can't have one without the other, you need both outcomes for it to be truly evil. If you have your suggested dark road without any of the aspects I brought up, it becomes just as childish/edgy as just meaningless slaughter.

But that's what people want though; being evil while actually doing the right thing. Just never deal with the fallout directly. It's why fucked up characters like Poison Ivy, Harley Quinn are so popular and have increasing become almost 'good with an edge' over the years.
 

Saark

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A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
In fact, it is said in the game that this army was never really intended to attack the city, only to give the opportunity to take control over bg.
It would still have to create some sense of military pressure, but all it did was a small skirmish attack on the gate next to the refugee camp. It's so laughable, that they only stationed two whole guards at that gate and called it a day.

You'd expect some more serious attacks and military pressure for someone like Gortash to convince the Baldurian lords to make him totally-not-palpatine with his totally-not-stormtroopers. But instead of it being a high pressure and high stakes environment, there's nothing to make me believe that there is an army at the gates that could destroy not only the city, but end mankind as we know it. The sense of urgency that builds up over the last 2-3 hours of Act 2 are gone within seconds when Act 3 begins.
 

Haba

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It's hard to make a satisfying evil path in a setting where evil is a metaphysical property that exists purely for its own sake. I think D&D games would benefit a lot from making good and evil and law and chaos more distant and ephemeral concepts than simply opposite paths you have to choose between, and having all mortals (such as yourself), making decisions somewhere in the middle, with a few exceptions like paladins.

Evil for the sake of evil simply doesn't work that well if you want to have any kind of depth in the storytelling (or your writers have to be especially fucked up).

Evil for the sake of a goal works much better to me. Like revenge, or immortality. A character or a faction with a single-minded pursuit towards a goal, by any means necessary.

Funnily enough, of all the places, I think cultivation or "murim" novels do this best with their Orthodox/Unorthodox/"Demonic" factions. It works much better to explain the conflicts between opposing points of view. While one of the three is perceived as evil and cruel, all of the three are capable of "evil" acts. It is more about operating inside a certain set of values than rigid morality.
 

Zayne

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-Add more enemies with counterspell so you can't win a fight with a single spell on the first turn, or some other sort of anticasting ability
Ehh, I'd rather take counterspell from players.

In fights where both teams have counterspell(like the Netherbrain) mage combat is pure cancer. It's easier to precast haste and forget about spells.
 

Grauken

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Butchering children or animals usually is the edgy path, that's not evil just moronic. There has to be a reason. Say a deadly disease breaks out in a children's hospital and you have to either burn it down with everyone in it or let the disease run wild and claim even more victims. A true evil path shouldn't feel like an "evil" path, it should just be a path with many seemingly rational choices that leads you down an increasingly dark road until you lose all sense of good and evil
You can't have one without the other, you need both outcomes for it to be truly evil. If you have your suggested dark road without any of the aspects I brought up, it becomes just as childish/edgy as just meaningless slaughter.

You can be thoroughly evil without killing anyone. Killing is just the most simple way for developers to convey that someone is evil, its mostly cheap and not convincing.

An evil path shouldn't start with you making moronic evil choices right out of the gate, it should lead you toward realizing that you're evil and accepting it, so it has to start subtly and then increase the pressure to slowly turn your character evil. That can be done in many ways and some of them may include killing, but it really doesn't have to.

An evil moment in the game that could have been improved is when you tell Marianna that you have the hag's staff to bring back her husband. You either give it to her or break it in front of her. That's edgy evil, but they could have easily added some text saying something to the effort that you realize nothing good can come out of bringing her dead husband back with hag's magic. That would have been a good, rational choice that is, from Marianna's perspective, evil, and yet makes a lot of sense. Do enough of those choices and you have a solid evil path.
 

Saark

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A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
Funnily enough, of all the places, I think cultivation or "murim" novels do this best with their Orthodox/Unorthodox/"Demonic" factions. It works much better to explain the conflicts between opposing points of view. While one of the three is perceived as evil and cruel, all of the three are capable of "evil" acts. It is more about operating inside a certain set of values than rigid morality.
I think the True/Renegade Aeon paths in WotR did a fairly decent job at it as well, where "maintaining the timeline" could easily be considered evil, but you did it to remain impartial in your task. Letting selfish constructs like morality affect your choice in order to act kind or good, ultimately made you a renegade and even limited your ability to advance in the mythic path. While this is more of a Lawful vs Chaotic dilemma, it heavily ties into the good vs evil one as well, and there's certainly ways to explore these concepts that aren't going to lead to people picking one choice over the other 9/10 times.

Succumbing to or using Akachi's Curse to your advantage in MotB: Well written.
Succumbing to or using the Dark Urge in BG3: Lmao.
 

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